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Alaron
United States225 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:53 attackfighter wrote: So what do they do instead of attack moving? Turtle? the most micro I see is when the terran kites... asides from that all battles seem to revolve around attack move + spell spam Watch Artosis cast, Idra Vs. BoxeR, SC1 Pro's coming over are going to change a lot. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32088 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:53 attackfighter wrote: So what do they do instead of attack moving? Turtle? the most micro I see is when the terran kites... asides from that all battles seem to revolve around attack move + spell spam Kiting is a necessity in PvP, or anytime you use stalkers. Zerg, if you don't micro, you will lose, period. Zerg units get shredded in a heads up battle unless you utilize them properly. There are TONS of other examples where basic micro is required just to even compete. And mindlessly spamming spells... let's see you use FF even half as well as TLO or some pros?? Why even bother posting if you can't identify basic micro that literally happens in every game?? | ||
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Rinsho
United States17 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:53 attackfighter wrote: So what do they do instead of attack moving? Turtle? Most people I run into, yea. But on occasion I'll play a good player that micros his marauders in front to absorb the baneling shots. In those cases I have to counter-micro my banelings to not hit the marauders. Kinda get where I'm coming from now? Just because the majority of players a-move does not mean that's the best way to go about it (or 99% effective). It just means that most people like a-moving at the moment. I admit it, I'm guilty of a-moving and neglecting micro a lot more than I should, but that's why I'm not a high-level player. Their micro/macro sets them apart from me, which is just how it should be. | ||
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attackfighter
Canada308 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:56 Alaron wrote: Watch Artosis cast, Idra Vs. BoxeR, SC1 Pro's coming over are going to change a lot. Yeah I watched that... there wasn't a lot of micro. I saw some fungals going down, boxer suiciding his army to kill a hatch, boxer putting tanks on the unreachable cliff (that wasn't micro though I think that's what you're referring to) and a bunch of dropship play. The dropship play was fine, however everything else was just boring and nothing really wowed me. TLO's game 1 in the GSL would've been a better example of micro/macro potential in SC2 imo. | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
TLO's game 1 in the GSL Thats funny considering how bad his opponent fucked up in order to lose the huge advantage he already had. Sure TLO played ok but nothing amazing. User was temp banned for this post. Don't take a random statement out of context and then respond to a part of it that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. | ||
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greycubed
United States615 Posts
He does have a point here in my opinion. | ||
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Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
A lot of the stuff that people find so impressive about BW, is stuff that is only impressive once you've played a decent amount of BW yourself and attempted to copy it. Show someone who has never played a game of BW a mechanically "impressive" bit of micro or macro, and it is doubtful that they will be nearly as impressed, because they haven't played the game. Getting Dragoons to do exactly what you want might be hard as fuck...but you don't know that until you've actually tried to sit down and told a Dragoon what to do and have it march off in some random direction. To someone who hasn't really played, Dragoons acting in a sensible way doesn't seem impressive, it just seems natural. Similarly, other micro tricks just seem wierd. "Oh, thats not 1 muta, its actually 10 stacked on top of each other." Isn't going to impress someone who hasn't played the game, its gonna prompt a "wtf?" This is a major issue with BW, because as time goes on, fewer and fewer people have actually played the game. This is especially true in the West, where almost nobody under the age of 18 has played BW. To these people, so much of what impresses other players about pro-level playing in BW isn't going to be impressive, because they have no actual concept of how difficult it is to do. To someone who hasn't played the game, perfectly controlling your workers to mine is no more impressive than automining--in fact, it literally looks exactly the same. Casting a bunch of storms in succession without smartcasting isn't any more impressive, because they've never tried to do it. To someone who's never played the game, it seems natural that you'd be able to cast storms as quickly as you need to and wherever you want them. A whole lot of BW expertise is about making insanely difficult stuff look easy...but thats only impressive if you know how difficult it actually is. if you don't, then guess what? It just looks, well, easy. Natural. The way things should obviously be. SC2 has a couple of advantages in this regard. The first is simply that because its so much newer, many more people in the West have played it, which gives them more context. But the second is that a lot of what is impressive in SC2 is impressive in an obvious way that isn't relying on a deeper understanding of the game. For example, expertly using Forcefields the way Tester does, or really abusive Blink play on the edges of Delta Quadrant--those aren't about making things that are really difficult to do look easy, they are inherantly flashy manuevers that are impressive in *obvious* ways, whether you've played the game or not. A lot of the people talking about how BW is superior as a spectator sport are people who play and love BW. Given that context, it may well be. But that context does not exist for most people these days, especially in the west. And since thats never gonna change, the ability for BW to grow as an e-sport is limited. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:46 iCCup.Diamond wrote: I think Nazgul summed it up pretty well so I can only add to one of his points in that there is players with their own style already. None more so than the Peruvian, CatZ. That guy has one of the most unique and interesting Zerg styles of play out there. Is he a world beater winning GSL, IEM, and MLG? No. But he is doing very well with a style that is all his own. The guy will 7 pool in ZvP, you will know he is doing it, and most people still lose. Why? CatZ has figured out that opening and every conceivable follow up that he knows exactly every move to make when. He is good at counting opponent workers and using his last couple Zerglings to snipe JUST enough so he ends up ahead on workers. There's also his now sort fo well known Proxy Infestor Pit into double fungal on all of an opponents mineral lines. Who does that? CatZ does all the time, most notably against LZ at MLG lol........ There will be styles, but I think unlike BW they will only show AFTER people really break down and 90% figure out the game. Except for CatZ, he is a rare breed. Players will still deviate from each other in their unit control and decition making and as for your mention of Catz there are more than one unique player in the foreign scene TLO pretty much started the whole infestor zergling trend during beta and to call one player a Rare breed is like beating a dead horse. If sc brood war lives for another 10 years flash will have his successor, even if his level of play seems like an unclimbable mountain. For what its worth players who stick out in your mind have a slightly different approach or mindset towards the game that is for sure. The way i read it there is clearly alot more to TNNs decition to quit sc2 than what he has forwarded to the public similar to the fruitseller thread and taking a look at his post history on bnet its not all gumdrops and icecream, the guy clearly was biased from the getgo or atleast have been feeding this line of thought for quite some time. People burn out, and loose their passion or their passions // interest in a subject simply change. I simply want to wish him good luck and hope he puts out the same effort into whatever he intends to spend his time on that he did during his prime in brood war. A lot of the stuff that people find so impressive about BW, is stuff that is only impressive once you've played a decent amount of BW yourself | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
Two players go the exact same build, same unit comp, everything... Player A chronoboosts everything greatly... player B only chronos because he fucks up his macro a bit and has to use it to try to make up for mistakes. Player A wins ...every...single...time. NTT is just a whiny little bish I watched a bunch of his replays when he was doing his cute little mass air cheese against protoss. The real problem he is having is with the emergence of two strategies that don't crumble to his cheese. He's just another bad-mannered washed up broodwar scrub. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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attackfighter
Canada308 Posts
On October 07 2010 03:06 Lomak wrote: Thats funny considering how bad his opponent fucked up in order to lose the huge advantage he already had. Sure TLO played ok but nothing amazing. Maybe his opponant played poorly, but the hellion harass was fun to watch and probably fun to play. That's the kind of thing I'd like in SC2: micro that's hard, rewarding and costly if you screw up. | ||
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RinconH
United States512 Posts
1) SC2's so much more mechanically simple than BW that, in the near future, there will not be enough to margin and complexity to differentiate top players or 2) SC2, by doing away with a lot of micromanaging "busy work", will allow that effective APM to be used on the actual in game strategie (splitting forces, attacking multiple screens etc) | ||
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RotterdaM
Netherlands684 Posts
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Reptarem
155 Posts
no, you just need to listen on korean caster enthusiasm during a reaver drop. No, the OP is right. From a mass-marketing point of view the game makes sense, and that's what Blizzard's main goal is. Easy and mass-marketable. | ||
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NeVeR
1352 Posts
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On October 07 2010 03:15 Jayrod wrote: Brood War sucks by comparison... time to move on and stop getting butt-hurt because they made the game more.... ergonomic is the term ill use. There will still be varying degrees of skill and the argument that "oh its so easy because of stuff chronoboost exists to make up for mistakes" doesnt fly either because... the player who makes fewer mistakes is going to come out victorious. Two players go the exact same build, same unit comp, everything... Player A chronoboosts everything greatly... player B only chronos because he fucks up his macro a bit and has to use it to try to make up for mistakes. Player A wins ...every...single...time. NTT is just a whiny little bish I watched a bunch of his replays when he was doing his cute little mass air cheese against protoss. The real problem he is having is with the emergence of two strategies that don't crumble to his cheese. He's just another bad-mannered washed up broodwar scrub. This thread is the most unexpected bantrap since the Beta Key Roulette. On another note (this is a actual serious question here), what has NTT done or achieved in SC2? I like to think I follow the scene very closely and didn't even really know he had switched to SC2 until this thread. I know about his BW achievements, but those didn't seem to add up to much in SC2. Again I'm really asking here, not just being a dick. I honestly have never seen a game of his and I spend about 30 hours a week scouting every league and such looking for new hot players. I talk to all the top players that aren't Korean on a daily basis. And not one time until today did he come up... | ||
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NeVeR
1352 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:25 Mjolnir wrote: I "get" it. I just don't agree that SC2 is somehow "lacking" simply because MBS, automining and others are involved. Once anyone got to the point where macro was second nature, it literally took 5 seconds to hit a key to return to base, spam some produciton, move an SCV and then hotkey your ass back to a battle. Not a big deal in my opinion, and entirely overstated by the more vocal pros out there. It seems to me like you do not understand the difficulty of BW mechanics. I'd take a guess that you were probably not very good at it, and are now happy to write it off as being trivial and unnecessary because now you and your grandmother can macro like gods in SC2 and no longer want to think about things such as MBS. Five seconds is a big deal, by the way. | ||
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Cashout
115 Posts
i agree with this too, this game is poorely designed | ||
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space_yes
United States548 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:30 Deadlyfish wrote: I cannot understand why many BW (or former BW) players cant accept the fact that BW might not be the best game ever. I realise that not everyone is like this, but still. Many people will just say "BW was harder" or "BW had better units etc" without realising that it is only their own opinion. Everyone is trying to argue about what the better game is, when you cant. You can say which game YOU prefer, or which game YOU believe is the hardest one, but you cant just state it as fact and end there. Also i feel it to be kinda silly that 2months into SC2 people are already saying that it is harder/isnt harder than BW. BW has been there for 12 years, lets see what SC2 is like in 12 years, probably isnt even the same game. In 12 years there will probably be complex strategies and way different BOs than today. Honestly it's like watching the first 10 mins of Ironman 2 and then just saying that it's worse than the first one. People have played BW for like 10 years, obviously they are gonna claim that it was the hardest game in the world, even if it wasnt. Same thing is gonna happen in 10 years with SC2, people are gonna say that it was really hard, way harder than SC3 (and way better), even though it might not be. People just need to realise that there is no right or wrong in this debate. BW is not harder than SC2. SC2 is not harder than BW. No. BW is harder than SC2 due to limitations of the unit AI and interface. These are discrete properties of the software that have nothing to do with anyone's personal opinion. I fail to see how talking about what SC2 will be in 12 years is relevant to discussions about game difficulty now. Sad to see NTT quit SC2 so soon when I thought he might be back. Lol at all the newbies in this thread "who is NTT?" or "I am old school and I've watched 10000000000 pro replays and I've never heard of NTT" | ||
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kaisr
Canada715 Posts
On October 07 2010 03:15 Jayrod wrote: Two players go the exact same build, same unit comp, everything... Player A chronoboosts everything greatly... player B only chronos because he fucks up his macro a bit and has to use it to try to make up for mistakes. Player A wins ...every...single...time. Thats not the point. The point is its super easy to chronoboost, and its more forgiving too. Chronoboosting is supposed to be a macrohelper, like doing it well will increase your macro relative to someone who is not doing it well. The difference between the chronoboosting skill of a top pro and me is not that big, the difference between how well a pro can macro using MBS and auto mining and me are not that big. Conversely, the difference between me and someone like Best or Stork in macro abilities is ridiculous, its probably not even comparable. There is even a noticeably big difference between the macro ability of me as a former C- BW player and a C+/B- player. SC2 is definitely easier than BW, its not arguable, but there is tons of new blood in SC2 and some of the new gimmicks and novelty of it makes it really fun and I definitely enjoy playing SC2 more than BW right now and will probably never play BW again. But I can sorta understand why NTT is frustrated as there is nothing worse than losing to a worse player in a situation that was based on luck/gimmick where there is very little you can learn from the experience. | ||
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