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Mazer
Canada1086 Posts
On October 07 2010 01:59 LostDevil wrote:One last thing I will say about SC2 vs Broodwar is that I know of a female on the ladder who has 50 max apm in a game (this is not exaggerated) and does the same "timing push" every game regardless of the opponents race and is 1700. This is what is not acceptable to, what you forumers call, "old time broodwar elitists". You realize people could make it to C+ by just 6-pooling people on Iccup right? I guess that makes BW a bad game too? | ||
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attackfighter
Canada308 Posts
On October 07 2010 01:59 Mazer wrote: What does easy micro even mean? It's totally a PvP situation. If you were microing against AI, sure. Someone will always be better 1v1. Easy micro means you only have to hit 1a and spam your spell hotkeys to perform 99% optimally. | ||
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DJEtterStyle
United States2766 Posts
It's a question of human psychology. Most players don't go into a game saying, "I'm going to start with a flexible build, scout, and adapt my play." Instead, they blindly execute a build order and hope for the best. We've all lost games from play that made no logical sense whatsoever, situations in which your opponent was not reacting properly to anything he scouted and just blindly making units. The difference was that, in Brood War, superior mechanics could save you from that loss; you could claw your way back into the game. In SC2, though, you just lose; the game mechanics are so simple that the first setback puts you on a slippery slope from which you can never recover. SC2 is fine. It's acceptable. It's a good RTS. I got my $60 worth. But I won't be playing it in 2011. | ||
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
the only area i agree that ruins the game is the maps, which goes a long way to fixing 80-90% of the problems that truly hold SC2 back, such as build order losses. i recognize that new/better maps will come out and there will be more breathing room for style, so i'm not bothered. i didn't need all the bitching about not imbalanced things (blink? really???) to figure that out though, and i also realized that within a few days. honestly, rereading his post, he sounds exactly like the babies who post in SC2 strat that such and such is OP, then when they post a replay, they played like shit. that's why i want to see what it looks like when he plays and not when he posts. i'll give him the benefit of the doubt and watch replays of his with an open mind because i think 1 replay is all it will take to settle this thread. | ||
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Mazer
Canada1086 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:03 attackfighter wrote: Easy micro means you only have to hit 1a and spam your spell hotkeys to perform 99% optimally. Maybe 1a is enough for most people to get by with now but I'm sure at higher levels, controlling 3-4 groups of units intelligently will destroy anyone doing 1a. I mean, that's not a stretch, is it? | ||
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Raevin
246 Posts
The simple fact is that NTT is at a level of understanding of RTS gameplay that 99% of posters in this thread will never come close to. The SC2 forum really saddens me at times because of all the new faces that come in with swords drawn ready to defend at all costs the calculated shortcomings of the game compared to Broodwar in order for Blizzard to be able to mass market it better and make more money. You are so wrong in your entire drivel of a post that it hurts that you are allowed to even speak on these forums He has no understanding of SC2, which is why he had a gimmicky build exposing early bunkers and salvage to win him games Once that was taken away from him, he fell appart, he absolutely self destructed and everyone and their mother is beating his face in daily on Battle.net. Before you comment on things at least have some knowledge, take it from those of us who have played against him, instead of writing a long winded post about basically nothing. NTT is a player who cannot evolve, his 15 minutes of semi fame on EU servers is gone and he is not good enough to hang in there with the top He is the exact same type of player who abused Reapers and got Diamond, then people figured it out and now they are whining that "SC2 sucks  " when it is infact themselves that suckUser was warned for this post | ||
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Rinsho
United States17 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:03 attackfighter wrote: Easy micro means you only have to hit 1a and spam your spell hotkeys to perform 99% optimally. Which is exactly how SC/BW was for the longest time, so I fail to see the point. Heck, a lot of "high level" BW is still like that (see: 1a dragoons, spam storm | 1a marines, click stim | 1a ling/ultra, spam dark swarm). User was warned for this post | ||
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leve15
United States301 Posts
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ChaosWielder
United States166 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:06 DJEtterStyle wrote: NTT makes some good points, but he's too upset to make them well. The major issue with SC2 is one that exists in any RTS: players can make stupid decisions and still win. It's a question of human psychology. Most players don't go into a game saying, "I'm going to start with a flexible build, scout, and adapt my play." Instead, they blindly execute a build order and hope for the best. We've all lost games from play that made no logical sense whatsoever, situations in which your opponent was not reacting properly to anything he scouted and just blindly making units. The difference was that, in Brood War, superior mechanics could save you from that loss; you could claw your way back into the game. In SC2, though, you just lose; the game mechanics are so simple that the first setback puts you on a slippery slope from which you can never recover. SC2 is fine. It's acceptable. It's a good RTS. I got my $60 worth. But I won't be playing it in 2011. This is my problem as well. The way the game and, importantly, the maps are structured forbids certain type of playing. Due to Blizzard/Activision's insistence on close, quick offense maps--and their vice like grips on real tournaments--I'm not sure the game will ever be as interesting as BW. The mantra of 'terrible terrible damage' is true, but this makes for a dull experience(playing and watching). Not to say that SC2 is "bad", or something like that, but the game's structure is limiting. I find this to be boring, in the long run. Perhaps it will be fixed in expansions or relevant patches. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On October 07 2010 01:57 attackfighter wrote: No your argument is stupid. For the most part, macro and micro are so easy at a pro level that everyone should be performing equally in those areas - this makes build orders more important since there isn't much else a top player can do to deviate from his opponent. His point isn't stupid at all. During the GSL S1 you were able to clearly see that some people were much better at macro. The fact that you can put multiple buildings under the same hotkey hasn't changed the fact that the people with better awareness and macro "rhythm" had better production efficiency. Everyone was not performing equally, and various games were won and lost because of better or worse (gasp) macro. For micro, do we even have to bring up Tester's force field usage that were clearly better than some other Protoss players? There were many large engagements that were won or lost due to micro ability as well. | ||
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TurboDreams
United States427 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:09 Rinsho wrote: Which is exactly how SC/BW was for the longest time, so I fail to see the point. Heck, a lot of "high level" BW is still like that (see: 1a dragoons, spam storm | 1a marines, click stim | 1a ling/ultra, spam dark swarm). I would like to direct you to Shauni's Stream on the right. SC:BW is not 1a stim or 1a spell victories. | ||
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berzerger
Turkey95 Posts
He was beating THE names, because he was one of THE names... Constant bashing on him is such a shame. | ||
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DueleR
United States207 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:08 Herculix wrote: requesting a replay of NTT able to micro multiple battles in different areas of the map while expanding and macroing without missing a beat. since everything is such low APM he should be able to handle it no problem right? only one is necessary. i noticed he's in the uber-league for EU with dimaga, naniwa etc. so someone should have a replay. i assume he plays well if he's in that league. There are plenty of pre-patch NTT reps on sites like sc2rep.com, just put his name in the search box. | ||
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LostDevil
Fiji283 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:09 Raevin wrote: You are so wrong in your entire drivel of a post that it hurts that you are allowed to even speak on these forums He has no understanding of SC2, which is why he had a gimmicky build exposing early bunkers and salvage to win him games Once that was taken away from him, he fell appart, he absolutely self destructed and everyone and their mother is beating his face in daily on Battle.net. Before you comment on things at least have some knowledge, take it from those of us who have played against him, instead of writing a long winded post about basically nothing. NTT is a player who cannot evolve, his 15 minutes of semi fame on EU servers is gone and he is not good enough to hang in there with the top He is the exact same type of player who abused Reapers and got Diamond, then people figured it out and now they are whining that "SC2 sucks " when it is infact themselves that suckMy reference to his knowledge of RTS games was from my time watching him play first hand in broodwar. He is #58 on the EU server. If you think he is that terrible and still that high up on the ladder then it says a lot more about the difficulty of SC2 than you are willing to admit. You need to calm down. I did not insult you personally nor attack you personally. I supported Nazgul and gave my opinion which stems from playing RTS games for 11+ years at a fairly decent level. If you disagree, then you disagree but my post was not drivel. | ||
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Rinsho
United States17 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:12 Musiq wrote: I would like to direct you to Shauni's Stream on the right. SC:BW is not 1a stim or 1a spell victories. I'm not saying it is at the highest levels, but it still remains so at most levels. SC2, likewise, is not simply 1a/spell-spam victories at the highest levels, however - like BW - it remains so at most levels. EDIT: Oh, and just to add - I love watching Shauni's stream. I've been a BW player since it came out - still love the game. | ||
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Mutaahh
Netherlands859 Posts
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attackfighter
Canada308 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:09 Rinsho wrote: Which is exactly how SC/BW was for the longest time, so I fail to see the point. Heck, a lot of "high level" BW is still like that (see: 1a dragoons, spam storm | 1a marines, click stim | 1a ling/ultra, spam dark swarm). I played D- on iccup but even there I had to use more micro than I do in SC2. Protoss still had to hit 2a and 3a as well. Terran could not just attack move against zerg, lurkers, dark swarm, scourge and the amount of irradiates you had to do made that MU extremely micro taxing. Zerg was probably the hardest race to micro, since you had tons of control groups and you needed good surrounds and timing in order to beat any decent opponent. | ||
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Error Ash
Germany177 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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LuckyGnomTV
Russian Federation367 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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attackfighter
Canada308 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:12 koreasilver wrote: His point isn't stupid at all. During the GSL S1 you were able to clearly see that some people were much better at macro. The fact that you can put multiple buildings under the same hotkey hasn't changed the fact that the people with better awareness and macro "rhythm" had better production efficiency. Everyone was not performing equally, and various games were won and lost because of better or worse (gasp) macro. For micro, do we even have to bring up Tester's force field usage that were clearly better than some other Protoss players? There were many large engagements that were won or lost due to micro ability as well. There were tons of shitty pros at GSL (and all other tournaments) though. Look at top pros, like fruit seller and hope torture: they both performed micro and macro tasks fairly optimally, and so their games were decided more by their scouting and build orders/ | ||
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