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On October 07 2010 01:02 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I don't think anyone expects it to change though. Everybody is pretty realistic about the fact that this is 2010 and indeed MBS isn't going anywhere. Good example is NTT quitting actually because he does not expect it to change. I don't see any claims that Blizzard should change the game I only see people say that they are unhappy it was implemented which is a fair thing to say. Blizzard won't do a single thing about it. They have e-sports in their pockets, SC2 is a guaranteed e-sports success, and they don't need to make the game more physically demanding to achieve this and they know it.
And removing MBS would be seen as an huge setback (of the features of the game) by 90% atleast of the community just to please the rest of the (elitist) community. Blizzard will never done such an unpopular and unproductive move.
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On October 07 2010 01:02 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 00:53 Roggay wrote:On October 07 2010 00:23 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
He made an art out of trash talking. I don't generally enjoy anyone trashtalking but there is a lot of hilarious NTT footage out there. Idra's rage can't hold a candle to it.
So the next person wondering who he is please understand that this isn't some random and no matter if you disagree in the manner that this is done show some respect.
I certainly respect him for what he was in BW, but I don't have to respect the way he is talking. Why would I show respect to trashtalking (= showing no respect)? (Then again it's not the player i'm not respecting but the way he talks and argues). I hate 99% of the trash talking in any sport. However seeing Muhammad Ali going at it was a form of art. I don't expect you to agree or to respect it at all, but there is regular rage and there is skilled trashtalk and that they are not the same. Some people hate both, I personally only hate regular rage. Skilled trashtalk is so rare that you would almost forget it exists at all.
Are you comparing the NTT quotes in the Op to Ali trash talking?? I am confused.
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We thrieve for human domination whereas sc2 provides us with assisted domination. It's just not the same feeling.
BW is an outdated environement with and a beautiful gaming engine, sc2 is the exact opposite.
Sc2 should've been both.
Actually had they made bw into sc2 graphics with slightly modified and revamped units it would've been on a whole different scale of success.
Miss !
Edit : I mean imagine a competitive fps helping up your aim or movement or telling you the best cycles, that's just pointless.
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Not MBS discussion again. Welcome to 2006.
>_<
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On October 07 2010 01:05 Mjolnir wrote:
God, NTTs quotes in the first post made me laugh.
I love how everyone lauds BW as the pinnacle of RTS gaming and reminisces about it's "finer points" while forgetting that some of it was just clunky design. There's no doubt that BW was the most popular RTS ever but it wasn't because there was no MBS and automining was available, etc.
I played SC1 and BW since the day they came out. It wasn't that much harder. I hear all these "pros" cry about how easy SC2 is and there's no challenge etc. etc. but then I wonder - well why don't you just use the free time you get with MBS and automining to micro better? Why not develop better tactics or more interesting game play instead of whining about how great things were "back in your day."
I'm not sure you have much of an understanding of what is going on here. It should be obvious that the level in SC2 increases very rapidly compared other games in their first few months. That alone should put an end to the whole use free time to get better argument. It's really kills any discussion to say people shouldn't say anything but instead practice more.
We're seeing some really creative and exciting play from other pros. Balance is improving (let's not forget that SC:BW was getting patched years after it came out) and there are a lot of potential tweaks on the way.
Any new game will inspire creativity in the earlier periods. This guaranteed. The main argument is that once creativity is spotted it is doable for other top players to copy this creativity rapidly. Simply following TLO/Jinro and the oGs guys on ladder it is amazing how when someone on the Korean ladder introduces a new strategy that works how he will be playing against it the next day.
And finally... how about these "pros" stop over-stating how "tough" BW was. My God. You set a key to a building in your base (or a location) and you spam click across your production buildings, then make sure your SCVs are mining. Big deal. We still go back to base for MULES, Larva, and CBs - and while it's not as often, the concept is the same and it takes mere seconds. Big freaking deal. If anything MBS opens up more room for micro and tactics - which is really what excites most people. I can't recall the last time I heard someone say "Man, I really can't wait to watch this match between X and Y. I sure do love how X makes units!" unless they're trying to practice macro - and even then it's a rarity.
Is this a joke? Every single guy in the top of SC2 that has a BW background will tell you BW was a tougher game. There is no need to ridicule them for this at all. Of course people will not comment on how they love how X makes units in SC2 because everybody makes the same amount of units, that is the whole point. If you followed any BW at all you will know how indeed people watching comment on amazing macro constantly.
By now I'm starting to come across as some BW groupie but in fact I love SC2 and think it's an awesome game. It's not going to change and everybody has to accept this. All I am doing here is make sure that all the correct information is provided because so much crap is being spread that it becomes difficult for people to educate themselves properly.
On October 07 2010 01:11 Hawk wrote:
Are you comparing the NTT quotes in the Op to Ali trash talking?? I am confused.
Nope. Just using it to make a point 
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On October 07 2010 01:02 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I don't think anyone expects it to change though. Everybody is pretty realistic about the fact that this is 2010 and indeed MBS isn't going anywhere. Good example is NTT quitting actually because he does not expect it to change either. I don't see any claims that Blizzard should change the game I only see people say that they are unhappy it was implemented which is a fair thing to say. Blizzard won't do a single thing about it. They have e-sports in their pockets, SC2 is a guaranteed e-sports success, and they don't need to make the game more physically demanding to achieve this and they know it. Everybody has to accept this and those who can't will stop playing and that is fine as well.
In short:
SC2 is to BW what LoL is to DotA: A more casual-friendly, easier-to-manage concept-copy with less skill differentiating mechanics.
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I remember the NTT name from back in the day then he dropped off the radar. Like Nazgul said maybe he should try Zerg out and see if it is mechanically challenging enough.
This game could change, but not until the expansion if they do decide to do that. The GSL shows off some interesting trends, but I believe Blizzard helped GOM TV set it up for the sheer fact they will have a monthly tournament with a lot of the current top players to see how the current trend of the game is going and see if they should balance or change anything. They have done some changes in the beta to make the macro a bit harder ie: Chrono boost has to be cast on the building and not the wireframe.
The maps in SC2 seem like rubbish because they aren't huge maps that reward excellent macro play or long drawn out pushes. Blizzard stated they chose the map size so new players wont be overwhelmed, they might have a whole new map lineup for their Pro League when they release it. Blizzard has been known to change stuff recently. I know people hate wow references but with their new expansion they are releasing they just overhauled the game from top to bottom in regards to the mechanics of how it is played.
SC2 will be their e-sports flagship and they will hopefully treat it like it is and have a open mind in some changes they can do.
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Zerg is the least changed race. And the most mechanic oriented.
Everyone should be forced to play zerg in SC2.
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On October 07 2010 00:23 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:NTT was one of the best players in the world around 1998-2000. The foreign scene was thriving and top players were still beating Koreans left and right. NTT got third at the WCG 2000 (technically called WCGC and the WCG officially started in 2001) and was generally seen as one of the most feared players in the world. On top of that he didn't just beat people but he beat them in a style nobody had ever seen and nobody has seen again. Totally unique in the way he managed to win games and not in a cheesy way at all but a solid style heavily reliant on expanding. He made an art out of trash talking. I don't generally enjoy anyone trashtalking but there is a lot of hilarious NTT footage out there. Idra's rage can't hold a candle to it. So the next person wondering who he is please understand that this isn't some random and no matter if you disagree in the manner that this is done show some respect. Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 00:16 TheFinalWord wrote:
I don't know what the purpose of making a game mechanically demanding is. Is it not possible that someone could explain to to me, or do I have to play Brood war for 4 years to understand. It would very much appreciated if I could skip that step. It is a misconception that because you have more time to think about strategy, by not having to multitask as much, that the game becomes strategically more enjoyable at a top level. If you create a game that is very easy you will allow too many players to play at the highest level, too many players to figure it out strategically. When this happens you will not find uniqueness (which a lot of people think you will find) instead you will find strategies being equal amongst the whole playing field. Figure it out once; anyone can do it. However if you had made it harder to perform, through mechanics, new strategies would actually stay a lot more unique because of how hard it is to execute them. That is my theory at least but I'm pretty confident in it.
I like the honesty of your posts Nazgul.
I'm interested why you devote so much time/energy + solicit sponsors for a game you believe is ultimately shallow.
If you believe the game to have a "ceiling" wouldn't your surmise that everyone will eventually tire of it and thus Team Liquid as well?
This isn't meant as a flame or whatever, I'm genuinely interested since Team Liquid got on the SC2 train early.
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I think SC2 is a great amazing game as well. Funnily enough it is possible to be honest about these things and still like SC2 exactly the way it currently is. For me you could say BW is the best game and SC2 is the second best game I have ever played. Overall I'm not negative about SC2 I think it's awesome. Only thing I'm negative about is shortsighted people posting in topics such as this one.
Besides loving BW and SC2 I love esports and top level gaming and it is SC2 that needs to be the game to bring this to a higher level outside of Korea.
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One thing's for sure, this guy sure knows how to get a rise out of people, if nothing else. I've seen these issues discussed many times before but this easily looks to be the first thread enticing so much banworthy material, heh.
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On October 07 2010 01:02 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 00:53 Roggay wrote:On October 07 2010 00:23 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
He made an art out of trash talking. I don't generally enjoy anyone trashtalking but there is a lot of hilarious NTT footage out there. Idra's rage can't hold a candle to it.
So the next person wondering who he is please understand that this isn't some random and no matter if you disagree in the manner that this is done show some respect.
I certainly respect him for what he was in BW, but I don't have to respect the way he is talking. Why would I show respect to trashtalking (= showing no respect)? (Then again it's not the player i'm not respecting but the way he talks and argues). I hate 99% of the trash talking in any sport. However seeing Muhammad Ali going at it was a form of art. I don't expect you to agree or to respect it at all, but there is regular rage and there is skilled trashtalk and that they are not the same. Some people hate both, I personally only hate regular rage. Skilled trashtalk is so rare that you would almost forget it exists at all. Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 00:54 andrewlt wrote:On October 07 2010 00:32 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On October 07 2010 00:28 VanGarde wrote:
People who whine or quit the game over things like mbs or claiming that the "skillcap" is too low are just showing the same psychological trait that you see whenever you or someone else bm's after a loss.
The reaction of blaming the game, blaming the cheese that just killed you for being broken or blaming the entire game for being broken is the kind of reaction you get when you go into the game feeling entitled to a certain level of success. Then when that does not happen you end up with a discrepancy in your actual success and the success you feel entitled to.
This is why people who were good in broodwar and feel entitled to be instantly as good in sc2 will blame the game for being broken for not letting them default into a leading position.
This is why IdrA will rage at people who beat him with a tankdrop because he feels that he is too good to actually lose to that. And this is why it is nice that Morrow speaks out his mind on this as well as he is the most successful player outside of Korea. Your whole post is a justification of your own opinion but not necessarily true at all. It would be nice if you were a little more open minded in making your statements. I still think that people who speak against stuff like MBS and automining are missing the point. It's 2010 and you can't expect people to buy in to a game with a 1990s interface. As successful as BW was in esports, casuals still easily accounted for almost all of Blizzard's profits. SC2, for all the interface improvements they made, is still intimidating mechanically to the vast majority of potential customers. It's still one of the scariest and most intimidating games to pick-up and try. It's partly why RTS was arguably as popular as FPS was in the late 90s but is such a small niche market nowadays. Pros are just going to find something else to do because Blizzard can't be expected to put out a purely esports game that just caters to a very tiny minority. I don't think anyone expects it to change though. Everybody is pretty realistic about the fact that this is 2010 and indeed MBS isn't going anywhere. Good example is NTT quitting actually because he does not expect it to change either. I don't see any claims that Blizzard should change the game I only see people say that they are unhappy it was implemented which is a fair thing to say. Blizzard won't do a single thing about it. They have e-sports in their pockets, SC2 is a guaranteed e-sports success, and they don't need to make the game more physically demanding to achieve this and they know it. Everybody has to accept this and those who can't will stop playing and that is fine as well.
I'm getting a different vibe than you when reading the complaints, I guess. I just don't think people are being as realistic as you're claiming they are. I mean, in the few minutes after your reply, somebody already compared MBS to an aimbot in an FPS game. =/
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On October 07 2010 00:23 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
NTT was one of the best players in the world around 1998-2000. The foreign scene was thriving and top players were still beating Koreans left and right. NTT got third at the WCG 2000 (technically called WCGC and the WCG officially started in 2001) and was generally seen as one of the most feared players in the world. On top of that he didn't just beat people but he beat them in a style nobody had ever seen and nobody has seen again. Totally unique in the way he managed to win games and not in a cheesy way at all but a solid style heavily reliant on expanding.
Edit: ok you answered most of the questions in your other post. I am such a slow typer 
I have a question about the way he played - might be slightly offtopic. I looked it up and back then replays weren't available (and a lot of players mentioned it in this thread already^^).
I just assume that streaming & VODs while playing didnt exist that much as it does today.
Do you think that such a unique playstyle can be found today? Today with replays - when a player uses a unique and successful playstyle - everyone gets their replays and analyzes the crap out of them.
The masses of SC2 players will try to adapt those strategies in normal bnet agmes- even the good (pro) players might try to copy that.
And because the information is so wildely available they succeed in copying.
Then the opponents start to lose to this strategy - and analyze the replays to find weaknesses. And they can tell their practice partners to play "the build" (as it is freely available).
Are those "unique" styles viable in SC2? For longer than the tournament in which they are introduced?
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I felt pretty disappointed with SC2 as well. Then I switched to Zerg and now I'm having a blast.
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I taught this is a strategy game, not a who has better mechanics game. MBS and the rest of AI should be there in BW, its just that no one taught of it before. NTT crying about MBS and stuff is just pissed that ppl who couldnt do that in BW can now win him since they are better at strategy part of the game and have better decision making.
Ofc BW was harder, but that is not a good thing! Thats the reason it is not played anymore. Except for Korea.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I think a lot of people comparing the current state of SC2 to BW are forgetting how long BW took to get here. For the longest time there was no muta micro, hold position lurkers, lurker dodging, and everything else that makes BW so unique at the top levels. Heck, until Boxer very few Terran even used drops, something that's become a staple in TvX.
At the start of SC/BW, the build orders were extremely simple to follow also. Very few "advanced" timings were included because that level of meta-game simply was non-existent at that point. In the same fashion, SC2 build orders are still relatively simple because the meta-game is still infantile.
A big issue I find with all of it is that instead of pushing the meta-game/mechanics further and discovering new and interesting things, people have resolved themselves to simply stagnate while looking to Blizzard to somehow give them the answer. BW would not have become even a tenth of the game it is today if not for revolutionary players like Savior, Boxer, Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu (just to name a few). These are the kinds of people SC2 needs right now. We need the people at the highest level to expand the meta-game, take the game further than anyone thought possible.
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Nazgul is cute.
And to add to the topic: NTT, too.
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NTT
I understand him. But i have a felling that he gonna be back. The heat of the moment...
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On October 07 2010 01:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 01:11 Hawk wrote:
Are you comparing the NTT quotes in the Op to Ali trash talking?? I am confused. Nope. Just using it to make a point
Ah, ok haha. That's what I thought originally but I got confused when you quoted a dude who seemed to be talking about that specific quote.
Good trash taking is awesome for sure
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Braavos36402 Posts
On October 07 2010 01:34 rozina wrote:
I taught this is a strategy game, not a who has better mechanics game. MBS and the rest of AI should be there in BW, its just that no one taught of it before. NTT crying about MBS and stuff is just pissed that ppl who couldnt do that in BW can now win him since they are better at strategy part of the game and have better decision making.
Ofc BW was harder, but that is not a good thing! Thats the reason it is not played anymore. Except for Korea.
This opinion is just so wrong and I typed a response like 3 times only to delete because there's just no way to respond to this other than a 2-day ban.
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EPT
