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On October 06 2010 17:33 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 17:21 Snippa- wrote:
Being an oldschool bw player... having watched MANY pro's replays, I did not recognize the name NTT, however after just doing a search through my old replays, it appears I do have 2 of his.
However, though I may have heard of him (and obviously forgot)... I think I would take these posts alot more seriously if they came from someone like Grrrr, Boxer, Tsunami, Maynard, ElKy, Bluewolf, FroZ!, or Dreame.
But even then, I personally love Starcraft 2, and would likely ignore what they said.
This is not Starcraft/Broodwar. Don't expect it to be.
If anyone doesn't like the game, they can feel free to quit. Just don't go calling a game trash that thousands upon thousands of people waited many years for and actually find it quite enjoyable.
Even with the flaws in the game, it is still extremely competitive and there is a hell of alot of room for creative play as there was in Broodwar. Ehh, NTT was way more famous than Dreame, probably more famous than Tsunami and bluewolf as well. Anyhow, he seems kinda bitter which is too bad.
way way more than dreame. Tsunami had a cult following because he was one of the first "good" players to have a strategy guide site so I dont really know about him and NTT comparison wise.
I dont think bluewolf was ever "famous" Wizard ended up being a lot better.
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Its funny that all nobody saying "the game is too easy" has ever, you know, won anything of note in SC2.
If its so fucking easy, why aren't they romping the competition? I mean, if the skill cap is that easy to hit, they should be just as good as the best players in the world, right?
But they aren't. Despite their whining, they actually aren't close to being as good as the very best players. For all they call the game "easy"...they're actually not that amazing at it.
Its very, very telling that 90% of the people posting have never heard of NTT. He hasn't done anything notable in this game.
This is like some 3rd string scrub Wide Receiver quitting the NFL and claiming that, "the pass interference rules make this game too easy. it used to be you had to really fight corners, now they can barely touch you." Well, if its so easy, why aren't they making pro bowls?
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 06 2010 15:52 ZaaaaaM wrote:
From Brood War to this is like going from F1 to a go-kart. ^^
Some parts are true, some are not. I guess its mostly ragequitting as hes been cheesed the last 15 games. But hey, I dont understand his issues with the game because im a noob, cest la vie.
It's not really like going from F1 to go-kart though is it.
The games control scheme has been modernized and with that, comes things that I bet Blizzard would of put in Brood War if the AI could handle it.
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Dudes, ntt never said the game is easy. He said that micro and macro are easy which, according to him leads, to " lack of fundamental RTS gameplay".
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On October 06 2010 22:23 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 21:50 Senx wrote:
That is the skill differential at the high level, nobody will complement a guy on his amazing macro "wow look at him hotkey his 7 raxxes and pump out units without looking at his base".
Its more like "Wow look at him hiding that stargate and making 6 void rays to kill his opponent, beautiful move!".
Then again this is what we have and this is what we gotta accept. Starcraft 2 is made for the masses and simplifying it was a step Blizzard had to take to make it more popular. There's no way around it.
Imo coming up with smart strategies to beat your opponent is more impressive and entertaining then being able to ram a bunch of keys really fast. By making all the basic stuff require less APM there is more room now to focus on the gameplan and strategy.
Its not impressive when a Plat level player can pull of the same strategy as Nony or Idra. So i have to disagree with that statement. It doesn't excite me AT ALL. The skill ceiling is too low beacuse of lesser mechanical demand.
What impressed me about Broodwar players was their ability to have good macro and good micro at the same time, KNOWING how difficult it was to do it without automining/mbs/no infinite selection etc made it impressive. Now add to that strategic and funky play with those mechanics: EPICLY amazing...reaver drops, storm drops, dropship play, dts, vulture play etc.
Sure, lessening the mechanical demand will promote more strategic play, but yet again I come back to my original point: It lowers the skill ceiling.. since mechanical skill was a HUGE differential in Broodwar and is barely existant in SC2, it will make strategic play easier to pull off and it wont be impressive at all, knowing that alot of people can do it.
Basicly any diamond player that plays 3 hours a day will be able to beat Idra that is fully devoted to SC2, is on EG and plays 8 hours a day in a bo3 simply beacuse the lower skill-ceiling makes the games much closer beacuse mechanics is a very small differential in skill.
Does that excite you maybe? That underdogs can win? I can understand that, but what I don't like is seeing players who clearly dont have the same commitment win over players beacuse they either made the right unit, proxied something or simply went all-in to steal a game or series.
You see, if the game was mechanicly demanding like Broodwar these type of strats would have been harder to pull off, but as it is now they're not, which makes lesser players win alot more games.
Thats the thing.. if knowing that its easy to pull off then its not impressive to watch, not for me.
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On October 06 2010 22:44 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Its funny that all nobody saying "the game is too easy" has ever, you know, won anything of note in SC2.
If its so fucking easy, why aren't they romping the competition? I mean, if the skill cap is that easy to hit, they should be just as good as the best players in the world, right?
But they aren't. Despite their whining, they actually aren't close to being as good as the very best players. For all they call the game "easy"...they're actually not that amazing at it.
Its very, very telling that 90% of the people posting have never heard of NTT. He hasn't done anything notable in this game.
This is like some 3rd string scrub Wide Receiver quitting the NFL and claiming that, "the pass interference rules make this game too easy. it used to be you had to really fight corners, now they can barely touch you." Well, if its so easy, why aren't they making pro bowls?
Morrow said terran is kinda too easy and he won a lot of stuff.
And i think what a lot of people mean by "the game is too easy" is just that it doesnt FEEL like there is much to improve. I mean in bw u see flash and are like. "Yea never could pull this off. No chance in hell i am able to do this" While in sc2 its like "meh cool has barely 120 apm and i play with 220 why the heck does he win $$$$$$ with that".
In starcraft 2 decision making is just soooo important. U cant win games with just ur mechanics that easy anymore.
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On October 06 2010 22:44 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Its funny that all nobody saying "the game is too easy" has ever, you know, won anything of note in SC2.
MorroW said that terran was too easy. Last time I checked, MorroW was pretty good.
He also admitted that he practices about one hour/day, and is on top. If you played one hour of BW every day, it'd take about 80 years to get decent at it.
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On October 06 2010 15:55 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 15:53 decemberTV wrote:Yes, he has. I'll try and convince him otherwise but he's a very stubborn child.  He has a point though, the game is trash. How is this game trash?
From his perspective
It's too easy for your average WoW/CoD nub gamer to pick up with their 50 apm and do one easy (And actually beat people a bit better than them, maybe he's also trying to stab a bit at terran... but he was a T player too.)
And I agree with him.
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To be honest I think that Morrows statement that he practices about 1-2 hours a day is totally misleading as this just refers to his laddering/customgaming. But he plays tourneys like every day and those take very long and playing a Bo5 against the likes of Naniwa, Socke or Select is also some sort of practise.
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Why is this news? Another QQ on the B.net forums. The mods allow this kind of discussion but would ban a TL member if they posted a "I hate the game I'm quitting thread" like this.
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When starcraft came out there wherent anywhere near as many players playing it at release as it is with starcraft 2 ? The races, the gameplay everything was basically new (its an rts, but its unique compared to other rts, so is war3 etc so people started off at scratch there too). But in sc2, alot of the basics are already known, the basic build orders where in place really quick, and with the amout of people playing it the game went into hyper speed as soon as the first beta. Ofc its hard to be at the top early (which he probably thought he would be seing as he was really good back in the days) when you have millions of people playing it. The game will evolve so quick. The reason I think alot of the old school people think its a bit bland is because there is already a few standard strong tactics and when you have millions of people playing it the odds of meeting someone who has practiced certain tactics (4gate as an example) is very high.
Players have seen replays, they have seen vods and live casts since beta. Its only natural more and more pick up on tactics from the top tier players, and practice executing them. This game as a medium to the whole community has been implemented from the start. This was not the fact with bw as the patch with replays introduced this aspect. I fail to see his reasoning due to the fact this game is so accessible to everyone. If I want a replay of Cool I can go get one. If I want one of TLO, IdrA etc I can go get one. I can watch the replays, practice certain builds and get decent at executing it.
As stated earlier the first replay on TL was from NTT. He sure had to be good to be the first replay, and he was. BW just evolved so much later and the people who managed to find stuff in the game could keep it somewhat to themselfs, and other players couldn't directly copy him or other awesome players.
What I feel is the difference between the top players in sc2 and the rest is how solid their play is, how they can adapt, and how good their game sens is. The fact they can see this and execute that is what its all about atm. Throw in some high apm play and you have the top tier.
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On October 06 2010 15:52 metaldragon wrote:
So some who I'm sure 90% of team liquid has never heard of is quitting and you make a thread about it?
that's because there are a billion kids registered september 2010, and claim to be the teamliquid community.
stop postin, when you're clueless please-.-
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The comments of the Starcraft II fan-boys in this thread are kind of depressing.
People really need to get off their intuitive/emotional thoughts about the game and start thinking about it analytically. Yes, it brought a huge mass of new players, but once everyone gets very good at this game, I'm afraid it'll stall to a point where only a few factors determine a win.Some units need to get removed (his refusal to use marauders is NOT stupid you (insert insult here) maggots), mechanics less user-friendly, maps need to get wider. MorroW has expressed his doubts about the subject...yes, i totally agree with you NTT.
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TL =/= TL anymore atleast the SC2 forums lol
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I have played quite alot with NTT in practice games and he is a good player in sc2. He could probably win a tournament if he really wanted to. I to think there are some flaws with this game but I just plan to stay with it and see how it goes. Still pretty fun to play.
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I don't really care if he's a ex-pro gamer but seriously wow! That's a real elitist jerk.
Also rage quitting as Terran? umad?
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Farewell dear noobs. Enjoy your mbs, your automing, your warp-in, your reactors, your void rays, your stim and your blink. I've had it with the gimmicks and the lack of fundamental RTS gameplay. What a waste of time this has been.
Drama queen out.
Stim is a gimmick? That was in BW...
Void Rays are a Gimmick?
Warp In is a Gimmick?
If that's our standard, then I say:
Reaver/Carrier Proxy attacks are a gimmick.
Burrow is a gimmick.
Lurker is a gimmick.
Moving shot micro is a gimmick.
Spider Mines are a gimmick.
Arbiter Recall and Stasis is a gimmick.
Air unit clumping is a gimmick.
Etc.
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manual worker splitting in starcraft vanilla was a fcken pain in the ass as well as many other limitations the game had and some people claim they were the real "cool mechanic aspect of SC1"
some ppl keep talking as if most of this issues were intended features of starcraft I when it clearly was a limitation of the game (and also almost all RTS games when SC1 was out...).
IMHO Games are meant to be played.
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On October 06 2010 23:09 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +Farewell dear noobs. Enjoy your mbs, your automing, your warp-in, your reactors, your void rays, your stim and your blink. I've had it with the gimmicks and the lack of fundamental RTS gameplay. What a waste of time this has been.
Drama queen out. Stim is a gimmick? That was in BW... Void Rays are a Gimmick? Warp In is a Gimmick? If that's our standard, then I say: Reaver/Carrier Proxy attacks are a gimmick. Burrow is a gimmick. Lurker is a gimmick. Moving shot micro is a gimmick. Spider Mines are a gimmick. Arbiter Recall and Stasis is a gimmick. Air unit clumping is a gimmick. Etc.
But all these things you just listed require much higher levels of execution than anything in SC2, in a game that overall requires significantly higher multitasking.
I mean all you've accomplished here is listing a number of the awesome things in BW that were more difficult to pull of both independently and in the context of their respective games.
You're basically proving NTT's point
On October 06 2010 23:16 Meatloaf wrote:
manual worker splitting in starcraft vanilla was a fcken pain in the ass as well as many other limitations the game had and some people claim they were the real "cool mechanic aspect of SC1"
some ppl keep talking as if most of this issues were intended features of starcraft I when it clearly was a limitation of the game (and also almost all RTS games when SC1 was out...).
IMHO Games are meant to be played.
Games are meant to be played therefore I strongly advocate automation ????
I actually think there is a certain elegance to auto mine, mbs etc, I don't mind them. But the truth is in addition to having those we have more shallow combat as well. The most significant thing in SC2 is giving your units as big a positional cone as possible become you a move. Taking out the tedium in a system that already easier than its predecessor just makes it more apparent how much worse it is in this case
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On October 06 2010 23:09 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +Farewell dear noobs. Enjoy your mbs, your automing, your warp-in, your reactors, your void rays, your stim and your blink. I've had it with the gimmicks and the lack of fundamental RTS gameplay. What a waste of time this has been.
Drama queen out. Stim is a gimmick? That was in BW... Void Rays are a Gimmick? Warp In is a Gimmick? If that's our standard, then I say: Reaver/Carrier Proxy attacks are a gimmick. Burrow is a gimmick. Lurker is a gimmick. Moving shot micro is a gimmick. Spider Mines are a gimmick. Arbiter Recall and Stasis is a gimmick. Air unit clumping is a gimmick. Etc.
half of what you said is a gimmick is wrong.
why? because notice how he says nothing involving zerg is a gimmick. you listed half things that mostly zergs do. 
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EPT
