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Cashout
115 Posts
On October 06 2010 20:07 hadoken5 wrote: Easy games get boring quickly. Referring to Terran here of course. I've seen many Terrans leave because all they do is get the "correct" build order. And of course I mean MMM of any sort. protoss isnt much harder | ||
mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On October 06 2010 19:40 kojinshugi wrote: See that's the mentality I don't get. Some BW players honestly seem to treat this less like a chess match with explosions and more like a Rubik's Cube solving contest. Yeah, it's pretty impressive if someone has good macro but I really find a strategy game is far more interesting when you're seeing TLO force a tank retreat with a nuke that gets cancelled as his own tanks siege up. Cool, you can manually send workers to minerals on four bases and shuffle through 9 factories and 3 starports. Logistics is not exactly the most thrilling part of war. Saying that SC2 is a bad game because the setup to having your armies is more streamlined is like saying chess is a bad game because any five year old could physically move a rook forward three spaces. The exciting part is making lots of correct decisions in an environment that forces you to perform lots of actions to stay in the game. Some players are well known for smart play and not too well for mechanics, say  hyvaa. Others have not too smart play, below average macro yet OMFG what the christ muta micro, say Modesty. Some players have insane macro, but are lacking in micro in some matchups, like  BeSt. This allows for a variety of playstyles, because mastering everything is ridiculously hard. Lots of people like this. As for creative play, it tends to be discouraged in hard counter based environments, because there are just less viable options. You might also want to check out this: | ||
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Miggins
Netherlands23 Posts
Ok... I can understand people expressing these opinions. But in my view this game is still being played by two armchair generals (in 1v1 at least), both are playing the same version of the game and thus have equal luck factors. And before people start pointing out that balance issues don't allow equal amounts of luck... we are now playing SC2 a little shy of 2 months after the release, two expansions still have to come out, and another few years of patching most likely. The famous BW balance wasn't achieved in a matter of weeks, and neither will be the balance in SC2. Have some patience and have fun along the way. And like Johan Cruijff (famous Dutch football player (and for our American TLers, I mean soccer  )) said once: "You have to force luck in order to win the game". -Miggsy -edit: spelling | ||
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Fraidnot
United States824 Posts
I can understand the opinion that bw > sc2 that you would just not have as much fun playing one compared to playing the other. I played dota, but refuse to touch hon for the sole reason that they increased the game speed. It simply is not the same gameplay that i enjoyed anymore. That's what I feel these players are trying to say, but it comes out as nerd elitism. "Lol you play sc2? you're a complete noob! I'm not a noob that's why I'm playing a game for real men!" There's nothing here to win, it's opinion. | ||
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Gingerninja
United Kingdom1339 Posts
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accaris
98 Posts
Just because you have an automatic rather than a manual transmission doesn't make you a worse driver. It just lets you focus more on the road. | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
I understand all of that. But it still seems like more emphasis is placed on struggling with poor control mechanisms than on strategic and tactical decisions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying BW doesn't require good micro and good strategy. I just find from watching BW matches that there's just less actual combat and less active map control and more passive map control interspersed with harass. And I don't think there are any hard counters in SC2, apart from the obvious "ground-to-ground will lose to air-to-ground". Hellions can fight Roaches, just not while a-moving. Mutas can roflstomp turrets and Thors if they magic box. Ghosts shut down HTs, unless they get one shot via feedback. I think it's unfair to say SC2 macro skill caps have been reached already. But yeah, they're lower than BW. But to pretend the game is shallow and dumbed down is ridiculous. Look at Cool's play at GSL. Spreading a creep highway along with his army, transfusing mutas mid-combat with queens half a map away from the base. That's fucking amazing to watch, and I'm sure it's even more amazing to practica, plan and pull off in a tournament. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
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Dystisis
Norway713 Posts
On October 06 2010 19:40 kojinshugi wrote: See that's the mentality I don't get. Some BW players honestly seem to treat this less like a chess match with explosions and more like a Rubik's Cube solving contest. Yeah, it's pretty impressive if someone has good macro but I really find a strategy game is far more interesting when you're seeing TLO force a tank retreat with a nuke that gets cancelled as his own tanks siege up. Cool, you can manually send workers to minerals on four bases and shuffle through 9 factories and 3 starports. Logistics is not exactly the most thrilling part of war. Saying that SC2 is a bad game because the setup to having your armies is more streamlined is like saying chess is a bad game because any five year old could physically move a rook forward three spaces. You miss the point of macro. Macro is what enables epic games. Watch more BW matches; endless streams of units, constant battle, every single unit needs to be microed flawlessly. What is considered "good micro" today is good control of a couple of units. To an extent "good macro" is good control of all your units, and seeing the overarching developments while controlling the components required to push through and win. That is strategy. | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On October 06 2010 20:30 Squeegy wrote: It's funny that people pull out the "but he didn't win any tournaments!!11" card, considering that it's pretty obvious NTT wasn't taking this game very seriously. And now that he got bored, he just wanted to troll the n00bs of the scene (and some other people too). I'm certain that he meant what he said though, that BW is a much better game than SC2. I think everyone is sure he meant it. I think part of the discussion is about whether the reasons he gave the public (and himself) are just rationalizations of a general inability to adapt or if the game is actually quantifiably worse. It's perfectly fine to prefer BW to SC2. It's a valid, subjective position. But to call SC2 a pile of garbage directed at Farmville players is kind of a rabid position. Generally, people who rage quit aren't exactly fonts of wisdom. | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
Would be fun to see him play bw at least. | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On October 06 2010 20:33 Dystisis wrote: You miss the point of macro. Macro is what enables epic games. Watch more BW matches; endless streams of units, constant battle, every single unit needs to be microed flawlessly. What is considered "good micro" today is good control of a couple of units. To an extent "good macro" is good control of all your units, and seeing the overarching developments while controlling the components required to push through and win. That is strategy. Sorry, but that just sounds like hyperbole. Especially since it directly contradicts what others are saying. No one manages everything flawlessly. It also really doesn't match what I see in the VODs, even if they players are of Jaedong caliber. There's no constant battle, just some mutas and hellions dicking around the map poking at things until there's a big battle in the middle. Regardless, what you're describing isn't strategy. It's execution. Again, I'm not saying BW is just about muscle memory and mechanics. I'm just saying the emphasis has shifted away from execution and more towards strategy. | ||
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epicopter
Canada177 Posts
Starcraft 2 will keep evolving, who knows how high the skill cap will go, it might not reach Brood War's level but will that only be because the game has modern mechanics? like the ability to hotkey your buildings into one hotkey? being able to select more than 12 units at a time? Workers auto mine? Brood War introduced the Medic, Lurker, Corsair, Dark Templar and devourer. The addition of these units changed the game completely and we don't know what Blizzard is going to add on down the line, the game has tons of room to grow and it's people like NTT who are too narrow minded to realize this. | ||
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wikked
Germany12 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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vlf
Portugal170 Posts
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shinwa
Sweden225 Posts
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On October 06 2010 20:35 kojinshugi wrote: I think everyone is sure he meant it. I think part of the discussion is about whether the reasons he gave the public (and himself) are just rationalizations of a general inability to adapt or if the game is actually quantifiably worse. It's perfectly fine to prefer BW to SC2. It's a valid, subjective position. But to call SC2 a pile of garbage directed at Farmville players is kind of a rabid position. Generally, people who rage quit aren't exactly fonts of wisdom. well if you look at sc2 and bw sc2 IS targeted at farmville players. you see mr bowders " lol lets make kkeewwwl units and then see what happens" design plan evrywhere. im not talking about mbs/1 control group/and all the other stuff which obv make the game far easier but also are needed in a rts 2010. but look at the collosus for example. it "replaced" the reaver. the reaver required huge amounts of micro to do well and you could do AMAZING stuff with it. not even talking about the huge excitement of scarabs chasing a bunch of scvs or whatever. no we have the collosus. a insanely powerful unit thats only downside is that it can be hit by air. its mobily,has a huge range ,rapes evrything on ground and requires pretty much zero control at all. the only thing "cool" about it are the shiny lasers. when a unit gets so dumbed down that the only cool thing about it are lazers and a monkey could control it then yes, instead of trying to build on what made bw so amazing they are doing stuff for the 13 year old farmville guy that just wants to rightclick and see stuff explode. also sc2 is currently often a guessing game and buildorder rock paper scissor with often very little skill involved. no one can deny that. also it currently focusses on gimmicky play and has a far far far lower mechanical skillcap which also evryone will agree upon. what he says is absolutely true. maybe not to that extent and hes really exaggerating hardcore. but his basic points are absolutely true and i can understand it totally. cool really saved the gsl for me since he really played amazing. but so often in gsl i watched the games and thought "well... i could do that ". while in broodwar atleast evry 2nd match made me go "OMG THIS GUY IS SOOOO GOOD I COULDNT DO THAT EVER!". the skillcap is just alot lower,the game is alot more simple and way more random. ofc i still like sc2 and play it. but compared to bw its a shiney kids toy in its current state and with that dev team and people in charge i doubt that will change. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On October 06 2010 19:44 EtherealDeath wrote: ???!!???? Show plz so I can surprise someone with it. No, I meant I thought he said it was a bug people didnt know about but he was just making an example  That would have been so funny tho. | ||
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gravity
Australia1734 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
<3 | ||
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