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On October 03 2010 06:57 attackfighter wrote:Show nested quote +Cool kept up with his creep-pushing, but he didn't over-do it like some players do. I think iDra is guilty of that. He focuses way tooo much on creep and really neglects many other aspects of the game.
How can focusing on something that is essentially a free speed upgrade for all of your units be bad? The only way I can see creep spread ever being bad for Zerg is if they spend too much money on queens or lose overlords dropping creep. I assure you, IdrA has enough mechanical skill to spread creep effectively while managing the other aspects of the game. Cool didn't play absolutely perfectly in those games. He played incredibly well, but there's definitely room for improvement, such as his creep spread. The game's only been out for a few months; no one plays anywhere close to perfectly. So don't take everything Cool does as the definitive word on Zerg play. He's the best Zerg in the world, but he's not perfect.
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On October 03 2010 11:28 Rybka wrote:
3) Overlord drops should be a staple part of every Zerg's arsenal, period.
Easier said the done. I agree it's very powerful but you can't expect all Zerg players to psychically know the exact minimum amount of forces to make to hold early which is what allowed him to accumulate the massive amount of gas required.
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On October 03 2010 11:38 sudo.era wrote:
He taught me, if anything, that zerg is not underpowered, just not used correctly.
for those of you that keep typing stuff like this, cool himself said he still believes that zerg is underpowered in his post match interview.
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On October 02 2010 21:11 Phenrei wrote:
His use of larva is very unique. He would store and let himself get to 1k or even 2k min/gas, then once his tech pops he has enough larva to blow it all on ultras/mutas/roaches/banes. It seems like the antithesis of good macro play, but with how zergs work it might just be the best option. It obviously works for him.
that's really oldschool for scbw. Expanding like crazy and roll over with ultra, spare some larva and don't macro at all. Doesn't work against aggressive terrans/protoss
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United States582 Posts
Man anyone who actually watched those games could see it had nothing to do with the races and was only about the players. Cool played perfect, rainbow made numerous mistakes. You really can't use this matches to say balance is perfect.
However, you can definitely say that SC2 is anything but broken or unplayable. The game is in great shape, I'm excited,
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On October 02 2010 21:10 floor exercise wrote:
Know exactly what build your opponent is going to do and counter it before seeing it. Wait what?
User was warned for this post
No honestly, I kinda am wondering about this. Don't want to get warned or banned or whatever, but HOW THE HECK did he see all that coming? Almost every scout, every drop, every push, even preemptive counters that he does before knowing what's truly going on (Desert Oasis) that he did just seemed inhuman.
I understand good scouting and meta game senses were on his side, but can someone explain to this newb (me) how the heck he did all that without being a psychic or a cheater?
Why? Because I wanna be that good. =D
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Honestly what I learned from watching cool is you need great sense of timings, like when the push is coming and make drones up until that, he won the finals by having perfect macromanagement and deflecting harassment because he knew the timings of when they would appear and not sacrifice any economy until then, god damn he is good.
people who say ITR sucks are stupid.. he is litterly one of if not the best terran in the world, you are just a random forum whiner..cmon have some perspective.
initially I thought cool used mutalisks to little but after watching him in the gsl I am starting to think I use them to much instead.
also I learned hydralisks are still not viable against terran (game 4 on desert oasis) marines marauders still dance circles around these immobile crapunits.
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On October 03 2010 12:40 nK)Duke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 21:11 Phenrei wrote:
His use of larva is very unique. He would store and let himself get to 1k or even 2k min/gas, then once his tech pops he has enough larva to blow it all on ultras/mutas/roaches/banes. It seems like the antithesis of good macro play, but with how zergs work it might just be the best option. It obviously works for him. that's really oldschool for scbw. Expanding like crazy and roll over with ultra, spare some larva and don't macro at all. Doesn't work against aggressive terrans/protoss
There were definitely times where terran could have pushed and won but I really like Cool's use of infestors to stall for time for his ultras to get out. Fungal growth is so great! Also, threatening counters with lings helps to hold terrans in their base.
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On October 03 2010 12:59 arnold(soTa) wrote:
Honestly what I learned from watching cool is you need great sense of timings, like when the push is coming and make drones up until that, he won the finals by having perfect macromanagement and deflecting harassment because he knew the timings of when they would appear and not sacrifice any economy until then, god damn he is good.
people who say ITR sucks are stupid.. he is litterly one of if not the best terran in the world, you are just a random forum whiner..cmon have some perspective.
initially I thought cool used mutalisks to little but after watching him in the gsl I am starting to think I use them to much instead.
also I learned hydralisks are still not viable against terran (game 4 on desert oasis) marines marauders still dance circles around these immobile crapunits.
Agreed about the mutas and hydras. Just think if you get three less mutas you can research ovie drop and speed which is starting to prove to be super valuable against terran especially with banelings dropping and dropping roaches on tanks while attacking from the front and fungal growthing.
edit: sorry about double post. I meant to edit this into the last post.
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On October 03 2010 12:49 MusiK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 21:10 floor exercise wrote:
Know exactly what build your opponent is going to do and counter it before seeing it. Wait what?
User was warned for this post No honestly, I kinda am wondering about this. Don't want to get warned or banned or whatever, but HOW THE HECK did he see all that coming? Almost every scout, every drop, every push, even preemptive counters that he does before knowing what's truly going on (Desert Oasis) that he did just seemed inhuman. I understand good scouting and meta game senses were on his side, but can someone explain to this newb (me) how the heck he did all that without being a psychic or a cheater? Why? Because I wanna be that good. =D
Play the game a lot and perfect your sense of timing pretty much. There is a common assumption that scouting\intel means seeing a tech building. THIS IS NOT TRUE. A great player can predict the enemy on very little information. Simply from things like building positioning, early unit composition, unit amount, player aggression, popular trends, the specific player's trends etc. This combined with the fact that we can limit the opponent's options with our own decisions usually results in great intel. However, i do think that zerg has a weak ability right now to limit the opponent's options. It seemed like Cool knew intotherainbow really well.
Also ITR was very gimmicky and wasted lots of units in harass attempts. The one game that Cool lost, the zerg made the same mistake, doing that huge ling\banedrop instead of smashing the terran's push.
ITR played VERY badly in that series. It was obvious that his nerves were fucking him. But that doesn't diminish Cool's skill.
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On October 03 2010 12:49 MusiK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 21:10 floor exercise wrote:
Know exactly what build your opponent is going to do and counter it before seeing it. Wait what?
User was warned for this post No honestly, I kinda am wondering about this. Don't want to get warned or banned or whatever, but HOW THE HECK did he see all that coming? Almost every scout, every drop, every push, even preemptive counters that he does before knowing what's truly going on (Desert Oasis) that he did just seemed inhuman. I understand good scouting and meta game senses were on his side, but can someone explain to this newb (me) how the heck he did all that without being a psychic or a cheater? Why? Because I wanna be that good. =D
At least some of what ITR did was predictable. I mean you don't have to be a genius to guess that a terran is going to cliff drop on Lost Temple, for example. I think it comes to good scouting and that unquantifiable thing- 'game sense'. You either have it or you don't, but I think confidence plays a big part. ITR seemed to be playing from a script and not reacting to his opponent too well, which to me is a sign of nerves. Cool seemed to be 'in the flow', reacting, reacting, reacting to everything he saw from hi opponent. Flash does exactly the same thing in BW.
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On October 03 2010 12:05 Kishkumen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 06:57 attackfighter wrote:Cool kept up with his creep-pushing, but he didn't over-do it like some players do. I think iDra is guilty of that. He focuses way tooo much on creep and really neglects many other aspects of the game. How can focusing on something that is essentially a free speed upgrade for all of your units be bad? The only way I can see creep spread ever being bad for Zerg is if they spend too much money on queens or lose overlords dropping creep. I assure you, IdrA has enough mechanical skill to spread creep effectively while managing the other aspects of the game. Cool didn't play absolutely perfectly in those games. He played incredibly well, but there's definitely room for improvement, such as his creep spread. The game's only been out for a few months; no one plays anywhere close to perfectly. So don't take everything Cool does as the definitive word on Zerg play. He's the best Zerg in the world, but he's not perfect.
No player will ever be perfect. Of course creep spreading is good but no matter how skilled you are you only have a limited amount of APM/time and if you focus too much on creep it may limit other aspects of your game. I think cool has shown that, if it's possible to win so convincingly without spreading creep so much maybe some of the other top zergs are getting too bogged down in spreading creep and being slower in their base defense, macro etc as a result.
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On October 02 2010 21:27 CoMMoDuS wrote:
nutrition is the key for all sports, even esports. going to surround my computer with every fruit there is.
I signed in just wanting to let you know how this made me spit water.
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1.) A lot of the supposed map imbalance is fictional.
2.) Related to #1, since Hatch first play is safe in 1.1 at certain distances, many more maps become more Zerg friendly than we thought, especially on cross positions.
3.) Related to #1, Zerg isn't as afraid of cliffs as they used to be.
4.) When a Terran's drop-play is completely shut down it is devastating. And its a lot easier to shut down than we thought.
5.) Infestors fill the role of Queens in the mid/late game. In the early game a Queen gives you a minimum defense against very small attacks. In the mid/late game, a single infestor at each base automatically makes 1-ship drops cost ineffective (if not totally ineffective).
6.) #4 + #5 mean the Terran strategy of letting Zerg take the whole map and then just popping Hatches like crazy with dropships is pretty much over.
7.) ULTRALISKS (enjoy them before they are nerfed)
8.) Overlords are so durable that their drops are impossible to stop as Terran. Will be interesting to see how Terran responds to this.
9.) A Zergling/Roach army is low on gas and can hold off Terrans well into the mid game. This gives Zerg a lot of options (mutas, drops, ultra, or just a shitload of banelings).
10.) #9 notwithstanding, making 6-mutas is still very strong. It forces Terran to spend too much and counters dropships before you have a significant number of Infestors.
I don't know if all these will hold but the matchup is going to be fascinating. Can't wait for IEM/MLG this month.
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On October 03 2010 15:04 fantomex wrote:
1.) A lot of the supposed map imbalance is fictional.
2.) Related to #1, since Hatch first play is safe in 1.1 at certain distances, many more maps become more Zerg friendly than we thought, especially on cross positions.
3.) Related to #1, Zerg isn't as afraid of cliffs as they used to be.
4.) When a Terran's drop-play is completely shut down it is devastating. And its a lot easier to shut down than we thought.
5.) Infestors fill the role of Queens in the mid/late game. In the early game a Queen gives you a minimum defense against very small attacks. In the mid/late game, a single infestor at each base automatically makes 1-ship drops cost ineffective (if not totally ineffective).
6.) #4 + #5 mean the Terran strategy of letting Zerg take the whole map and then just popping Hatches like crazy with dropships is pretty much over.
7.) ULTRALISKS (enjoy them before they are nerfed)
8.) Overlords are so durable that their drops are impossible to stop as Terran. Will be interesting to see how Terran responds to this.
9.) A Zergling/Roach army is low on gas and can hold off Terrans well into the mid game. This gives Zerg a lot of options (mutas, drops, ultra, or just a shitload of banelings).
10.) #9 notwithstanding, making 6-mutas is still very strong. It forces Terran to spend too much and counters dropships before you have a significant number of Infestors.
I don't know if all these will hold but the matchup is going to be fascinating. Can't wait for IEM/MLG this month.
Sounds like Terran tears.
User was warned for this post
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United States47024 Posts
On October 02 2010 21:14 evanthebouncy! wrote:
I also get this feeling, correct me if I'm wrong, that you can actually make larvae and combat units at the same time like how they do it in T,P? I mean nothing's constraining us anymore, why not sneak in some drones while making army?
Just as an aside, IIRC the reason you go all drones or all units at any given point is because if you could afford to get a drone while you make army, it would have strictly speaking been better to get it earlier while you were droning.
Example: suppose you get 10 larvae over the period of 1 minute. If you need/want 5 units to defend, it's better to get 5 drones first, then 5 combat units, rather than alternating drone-unit-drone-unit-drone-unit, because that maximizes the total mining time that the drones get, improving your economy while still leaving you with the same 5 units at the end of a minute.
In practice, people don't have perfect game sense, so you're going to overproduce or underproduce drones at various points, but at least this is why I think the ideal situation is to be making either all drones or all combat units at any given point in time.
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On October 03 2010 15:04 fantomex wrote:
1.) A lot of the supposed map imbalance is fictional.
2.) Related to #1, since Hatch first play is safe in 1.1 at certain distances, many more maps become more Zerg friendly than we thought, especially on cross positions.
3.) Related to #1, Zerg isn't as afraid of cliffs as they used to be.
4.) When a Terran's drop-play is completely shut down it is devastating. And its a lot easier to shut down than we thought.
5.) Infestors fill the role of Queens in the mid/late game. In the early game a Queen gives you a minimum defense against very small attacks. In the mid/late game, a single infestor at each base automatically makes 1-ship drops cost ineffective (if not totally ineffective).
6.) #4 + #5 mean the Terran strategy of letting Zerg take the whole map and then just popping Hatches like crazy with dropships is pretty much over.
7.) ULTRALISKS (enjoy them before they are nerfed)
8.) Overlords are so durable that their drops are impossible to stop as Terran. Will be interesting to see how Terran responds to this.
9.) A Zergling/Roach army is low on gas and can hold off Terrans well into the mid game. This gives Zerg a lot of options (mutas, drops, ultra, or just a shitload of banelings).
10.) #9 notwithstanding, making 6-mutas is still very strong. It forces Terran to spend too much and counters dropships before you have a significant number of Infestors.
I don't know if all these will hold but the matchup is going to be fascinating. Can't wait for IEM/MLG this month.
For most of these you have to add the caveat "if you know exactly what the Terran is going to do" Since that is never true unless you are Cool apparently that means most of them aren't true.
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I really feel that hope lot those games rather than cool winning them. I mean i love the zerg play, but after just watching the games, i think his play was over hyped. Yes he played great, but didn't have to deal with so many of terrans exploits. The only gimmick the terran tried was 2 tank drops, which cool did a great job blocking.
When i ZvT, and i was told I wouldn't ever have to deal with hellions harass, a GOOD reaper opening, or banshee play, i could have done what cool did.
Cool, is a beast, there is no denying that, but Hope played so bland it was almost boring to watch.
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On October 03 2010 15:53 zomgtossrush wrote:
I really feel that hope lot those games rather than cool winning them. I mean i love the zerg play, but after just watching the games, i think his play was over hyped. Yes he played great, but didn't have to deal with so many of terrans exploits. The only gimmick the terran tried was 2 tank drops, which cool did a great job blocking.
C'mon man! Rainbow did two tank drops and Fruit stopped them with lots of class. Look at that game on kulas for example. Even the commentators were so pumped to see how the tank drop would succeed, it almost seemed that cool would be behind by loosing an expo and out of nowhere a nydus appears in rainbow's base and catches him totally off guard. That has to be an example of cool "winning" the game.
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Yeah, the way Cool countered tank drops was amazing precisely because its not something that leaves him otherwise exposed. 1-2 Sunkens and a correctly positioned overlord. It was practically reactionary. Had HopeTorture gone something else its not like Cool would have lost because he bet everything on tank drops.
People are reading too much into Cool's amazing read on Desert Oasis. The rest of his decisions are easy to understand.
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EPT
