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GSL SPOILER OMG
What has fuitseller taught you? We all watched his games from the bottom all the way, and he's something different. Let's not talk about balance here at all. Let us take the game as it is currently, and talk about what fruitseller did to make him so good and his particular styles of playing. I think it'll be interesting discussion. I get this feeling that his playstyle is something to be emulated if one wants to get better, and I think he's super super aggressive when it counts. I think sc2 zerg is different from sc1 zerg where we just hoooolllllllllld holllllllllld with lurkers/scourge and stall for dark swarm. I think in sc2 zerg actually needs to be more proactive on forcing the games, at least that's what I picked up from watching him, he is not passive at all.
Anyways here's what I picked up from him:
1) Fight the battle away from home. Note his styles is very 'outward'. If he sees helions or reapers instead of huddle up he pushes out with roaches, and that takes the pressure away.
2) Fighting reapers he likes to make some ling to chase one, then make 2,3 roaches, then make BUNCH OF LINGS to kill them. I think that's a pretty solid response. He knows that ling w/o speed is terrible, so he only makes a few, and he knows roach w/o speed is terrible after the first few, so when ling speed kicks in you make bunch of speedlings instead...
3) Load banelings into overlords and it doesn't nessesarily need to be dropped on top of marines, anything's fine xD
4) Fungal growth awesome!! i never realize they can drain medivac's energy so brutally...
5) Mobility and Aggression!! :3 backstabs are actually good. We can't actually hope to stall the advances of T and P defensively, static defense for zerg is different from that of SC1, so we have to stall with backstabs instead.
That's about it for me.
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I love his ability to make a total of 10 supply worth of units and just drone his ass off until right before he absolutely molests an entire terran army with quite literally EVERYTHING.
He makes his opponents seem like crying, helpless scrubs in need of a good bashing. Goddamn do I love Zerg.
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1. Double expand in cross positions, so the Terran has to choose one.
2. Double hatch in your main is pretty viable if you are super economy oriented in the beginning (14 hatch always it seems)
3. Hydras are a pretty poor choice for ZvT in general.
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Properly controlled infestors shuts down bio play so hard, that's what I learned.
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in game 2 on lost temple, ITR threatened both banshees and tank cliff drop. Cool responded very smartly by making 3 queens and teching to lair, which allowed him to stop the potential cloaked banshees, but at the same time significantly delay a tank cliff drop by using crawlers next to the cliff + transfusion without sacrificing larvae injection.
and just by the way, i think 2 base mech timing pushes would be strong against cool's style... hit while or before he does that massive tech drop.
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1) 14 hatch can stop Proxy reaper
2) Why build one tech at a time when you can make all of them at once
3) Why expand once when you can expand twice at the same time
Honestly, the things he does defies star sense, but somehow he makes it work.
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Know exactly what build your opponent is going to do and counter it before seeing it. Wait what?
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He is just able to stall the oponnent until he is ready to go out and crush the enemy. There were precisly timed strikes to delay the enemy all over the place. Simply amazing
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His use of larva is very unique. He would store and let himself get to 1k or even 2k min/gas, then once his tech pops he has enough larva to blow it all on ultras/mutas/roaches/banes. It seems like the antithesis of good macro play, but with how zergs work it might just be the best option. It obviously works for him.
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On October 02 2010 21:10 MayorITC wrote:
1) 14 hatch can stop Proxy reaper
2) Why build one tech at a time when you can make all of them at once
3) Why expand once when you can expand twice at the same time
Honestly, the things he does defies star sense, but somehow he makes it work.
He does this because he simply does not need the tech at the time. Also, building one at a time might trigger pushes and what not so he wants to keep ITR in the dark. The multi-tech at once is gotten later so the terran might waste some scans and see nothing.
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He somehow has the ability to deflect any early agression by knowing what's coming beforehand, then ends up with 2 more bases and crushes his opponent. How he does it I know not.
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On October 02 2010 21:11 Phenrei wrote:
His use of larva is very unique. He would store and let himself get to 1k or even 2k min/gas, then once his tech pops he has enough larva to blow it all on ultras/mutas/roaches/banes. It seems like the antithesis of good macro play, but with how zergs work it might just be the best option. It obviously works for him.
That's very interesting thought... larvae is definitely dirt cheap in SC2, so you don't really care about idle larvae... hmm. I think in some case it actually is good to stall your larvae until you scout to make sure you're building the right units.
I also get this feeling, correct me if I'm wrong, that you can actually make larvae and combat units at the same time like how they do it in T,P? I mean nothing's constraining us anymore, why not sneak in some drones while making army?
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Using the smokescreen to double back and kill the pursuing units, like on Scrap station with the slow lings vs reapers. NICE!
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On October 02 2010 21:10 floor exercise wrote:
Know exactly what build your opponent is going to do and counter it before seeing it. Wait what?
No kidding. I think he also was wearing every sort of luck charm he could possibly get his hands on.
Fruit Dealer also has an amazing handle on scouting. He saw the drops way before they were in his base, he knew not only the tech but the unit composition of ITR.
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On October 02 2010 21:14 Scorch wrote:
He somehow has the ability to deflect any early agression by knowing what's coming beforehand, then ends up with 2 more bases and crushes his opponent. How he does it I know not.
Yeah it seems very hard to learn anything about zerg play from that series, it just seemed like Cool was so far in Rainbow's head that he knew what he was going to do before Rainbow even knew. It was wild. I'm still trying to figure it out
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On October 02 2010 21:10 floor exercise wrote:
Know exactly what build your opponent is going to do and counter it before seeing it. Wait what?
Yeah, prescience seems to be the number one skill other zergs would seem to have learn from him!
Not just in terms of builds but stopping drops and the timings of his attacks too. The guy is just psychic. Not something you can learn too easy.
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Infestors to stop drops.
I basically never used infestors, because speedbanes were doing their job well and my ultra's cleaned up after. Now I'm sure I'm going infestor tech once I scout drop tech.
And the spinecrawler repositioning during tank drops. Brilliant play.
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Learned that Hydras are pretty much useless vs. Terran. He never used them and when decided to use he lost, and definately because of hydras..
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Its scary how good Fruitdealer is. Thats what I learned o_O
1. It is not about how you think the race is weak, it is about how to be able to fully utilize strength of what is given. I think we can all take that away from the GSL finals.
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Overlord drops.. deffinately, im going to be using these SOO much more in the future
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I really liked how he's focusing on overlord drops a lot instead of nydus, but also does use nydus as well when it's least excpected.
He's a master of thinking outside of the box, that's for sure. And I bet he owes it all to his background as a Starcraft pro-gamer.
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Things fruit taught me:
1) Faking techs work better than hiding them for Zerg
2) When playing Terran, ALWAYS do crazy shit which forces them to scout or DIE.
3) Chokes are great for engaging the Terran from behind, where their slow mechs are.
4) Expand everywhere
5) Spine crawlers are worth building
6) Overseers are overrated. Lings are underrated.
7) Overlord sacs are totally worth their cost.
8) Queens are worth sacrificing at times.
9) Hydras are NOT good against most Terran mech builds.
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Morphing 40 Banelings at a time is worth it.
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Learned that Zerg needs some nerf.
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remembered that one swallow doesn't make summer
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nutrition is the key for all sports, even esports. going to surround my computer with every fruit there is.
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Defending the Kulas gold from tank drops with crawlers from one side and roaches from another.
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i learned that cool is the best player in the world
also -- some mod named boesthius is running around closing threads like this for absolutely no reason, so:
in before close.
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There will be 0 non-korean GSL winners.
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Counterattack even sacking your counter force just to make the enemy run home to defend cos you need to bank time to saturate as much as possible.
Lings are cheap and great when no blue flame ever come around.
Showing lots of tech structures doesn't give being scouted as much meaning if your opponent still thinks you could be going every type of unit versus only showing your exact tech which will be countered.
Extra hatch is vital. FE's can be pulled off and held in dire situations.
Be aggressive and keep your muta alive if you end up making them.
Drops are coming be ready for them already especially on maps where they are strong.
Counter counters.
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Threads that were closed were plain whine wars and boes was right in closing them, this ones fate depends on where the discussion leads.
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Aggressive expanding far away that forces a Terran to react and overextend himself with dropships as you have mutas for mapcontrol
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On October 02 2010 21:30 gillon wrote:
Threads that were closed were plain whine wars and boes was right in closing them, this ones fate depends on where the discussion leads.
i think you are 3/3 in posts where you blatantly failed to read the post you were replying to...or its a comprehension matter, i'm not sure.
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always thought of using infestors to stop the drops, thoguh I never had the apm for it ^^
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Spreading your expos allowing for backstabs is really really good. Dare I say... abusing immobility?
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Abuse the fact Zerg doesn't need multiple Tech Structures. Getting everything makes your army so diverse the Terran has trouble coping with it.
Faking the Greater Spire and massing Ultras was pretty damn sexy too.
When harassed counter harass with mass lings ( Nydus on Kulas )
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On October 02 2010 21:27 CoMMoDuS wrote:
nutrition is the key for all sports, even esports. going to surround my computer with every fruit there is.
I will sure as hell be buying whatever fruit that he's selling.
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On October 02 2010 21:28 Effen wrote:
i learned that cool is the best player in the world
also -- some mod named boesthius is running around closing threads like this for absolutely no reason, so:
in before close.
Probably because 1-2 threads is more than enough. Use some common sense.
Cool made very few mistakes and his style compliments Zerg nicely.
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He taught me one important thing about the whole balance issue: If Zerg wasn't so difficult to play in early game, nobody would dispute Zerg balance.
Cool just happens to have inhuman levels of defensive gamesense, something that really shouldn't be expected of Zerg players just to stay even with their opponents.
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On October 02 2010 21:38 CScythe wrote:
He taught me one important thing about the whole balance issue: If Zerg wasn't so difficult to play in early game, nobody would dispute Zerg balance.
Cool just happens to have inhuman levels of defensive gamesense, something that really shouldn't be expected of Zerg players just to stay even with their opponents.
he didn't just stay even. he crushed ITR. if you can even gain a quarter of what Cool has you'd be well on your way to beating most ladder terrans.
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One good thing I learned is to put at least one spine at each expo, juste because it delays drops. One dropship worth of unit takes a loong time killing a spine. On LT he put 3 spines in his main.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
He taught me and I'm guesing a lot of people, how useful just getting a ton of extra queens is for the healing. Him healing mutas is actually genius, he gets hurt ever so slightly, flies back, heals and flies straight back in.
Also how drop is extremely useful, especially with banelings against bio, how Infestors are just so good at stopping drops and slowing down pushes, also draining Medivac energy so well.
Also how crucial good flanks actually are with the zerg army.
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fighting away from home is VERY important. you see a lot of zergs with a ton of bases lose to one push just because it was too close to home. they end up with 3k minerals but can't spend it because queens and eggs are dead.
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1. He definitely fortified my notion NEVER to build hydras in ZvT. I know people started building them after the tank nerf and Dimaga played some nice mass/queens/hydras with lots and lots of creep, but they don't provide anything that I can't get in a bette way simply by building other units.
2. I am still not sure how he managed to drop so nicely. Overlords are slow as hell (1.88), meaning you can run away from them with hydras or unstimmed bio. I would guess it worked because:
A) when fleeing, you seperate the slower thors from the rest of the army (leaving them vulnerable to ling souround)
B) you can catch sieged tanks
C) fungal + ovi drop
D) you can block his escape route / flank
However I need to watch the replays to be sure that was the case.
3. I have to learn that sick multitasking.
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from what i understand is he build alot of drone some what more that ur average zerg user, dunno if it has been mentioned yet, and i also really like his play with the banelings in the ovies ^^
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Even though I dont play zerg, he has shown so many things that many zerg players dont really do against T. Heres the following that I thought were ingenious.
1) Stopping the tank drops on cliffs. When we look at maps like Kulas or LT where its riddled with cliffs i.e. perfect for tank drops, I dont see any zerg defending their nat like FD did. By placing the overlord near the cliff with 2 spin crawlers, this seriously blocked any sort of damage that could of happened at the natural.
Same goes for the game at Kulas. Because the cliff near the nat is alot wider to defend, he opted to expand at the gold expansion. Not only that but he was able to cover the cliff with roach/spine crawler, blocking any sort of harass from tanks.
Now people say why no reapers or hellions? FD saw what kind of harass was coming, and secondly FD has also shown to reverse the pressure by not turtling like most Zerg players do but instead attacking head on by sending in small groups of roaches. This itself is ingenious since normally there is like one marine defending the wall back at the main T base. Another thing about that LT game was that he had 3 queens, perfectly countering any sort of bancheese followup.
What i gather from this is that, T's early harass is becoming more of an all in. FD has shown numerous ways of shutting down aggressive early game T openings and i.e. making the T fall behind in econ, contained shortly after and then gobbled up.
2) Drops, drops and more drops. Taking advantage of the immobility T has by dropping in his main when all the T forces are dug up near his base. Its like yellow's storm drops except not as quite all over the place. Coming from experience, it becomes VERY micro intensive to clear your base full of bugs running around WHILE preparing yourself to micro your heart out if they engage your main army at the same time.
3) Did anyone notice that FD normally had an infestor at each expansion? Perfect way of stopping drops.
I dont know but is it just me that most of the theorycrafting actually took place in FD's games?
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he taught me that you can do whatever you want as a zerg if your terran opponent does basically nothing until 15 minutes are played. -.-
he also taught me that a korean pro terran in the finals of gsl prefers 2 scvs to build turrets over 4 marines to kill the overlord when dropping the natural on lost temple. ... ?????
ITR played extremely bad.
best thing was the nydus on kulas after defending gold imo.
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He showed all of us that the metagame still needs to evolve before complaining about balance issues. ITR didn't play extremely bad, just not at his best, while cool did a very good job at denying him any move.
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On October 02 2010 22:12 Ciddass wrote:
he taught me that you can do whatever you want as a zerg if your terran opponent does basically nothing until 15 minutes are played. -.-
he also taught me that a korean pro terran in the finals of gsl prefers 2 scvs to build turrets over 4 marines to kill the overlord when dropping the natural on lost temple. ... ?????
ITR played extremely bad.
best thing was the nydus on kulas after defending gold imo.
If you were in ITR's shoe, would you have expect 2 spine crawlers to be positioned right next to the cliff? Ive personally never seen any zerg do this on LT.
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Things I learnt from watching the game
1) It's ridiculous that Zerg players complain about dropship, while they have unlimit dropship at their disposal, and their dropships are higher hp, cheaper (no gas at all), no supply needed, armored (which thor can't counter, only viking, but no one makes viking in tvz)
2) Get all the tech buildings, you don't know when you'll need a particular unit.
3) Again, it's ridiculous that Zerg players complain about dropship (which is around 8 rine + 1 dropship = 500 mineral 100 gas fluctuated between marines and marauders), while they can easily counter which 15, 20 zergling + 2,3 baneling + queen stationing at the base and natural (around 500 minerals), that is so worth of a trade
4) Infestors are underrated.
Cool is in his own league .But in all the seriousness, if one doesn't read every whining topics about T and Z, after watching those games, he may think that zerg is op, and terran is up. Recently I've been watching Zerg replays, but after watching all Cool's games, it's so boring to watch normal zerg replays (so many basic mistake, even I can see). Cool is so cool.
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On October 02 2010 22:12 Ciddass wrote:
he taught me that you can do whatever you want as a zerg if your terran opponent does basically nothing until 15 minutes are played. -.-
he also taught me that a korean pro terran in the finals of gsl prefers 2 scvs to build turrets over 4 marines to kill the overlord when dropping the natural on lost temple. ... ?????
ITR played extremely bad.
best thing was the nydus on kulas after defending gold imo.
He had 2 spines and 3 queens, so those marines would not be a problem, and when the mutas come, turrets are the only way to defend tank.
ITR played really well just Cool played better.
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I just got one simple question:
I think, that everyones agree, that the strongest terran strategy is bioball. Marines, marauders and medivacs.
Specially since the last tank nerf.
So the question is:
Why Hopetorture didnt try to bio in a single game?
I'm not sure, but may be HT got so many nerves (Who dont?)
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On October 02 2010 22:16 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 22:12 Ciddass wrote:
he taught me that you can do whatever you want as a zerg if your terran opponent does basically nothing until 15 minutes are played. -.-
he also taught me that a korean pro terran in the finals of gsl prefers 2 scvs to build turrets over 4 marines to kill the overlord when dropping the natural on lost temple. ... ?????
ITR played extremely bad.
best thing was the nydus on kulas after defending gold imo.
If you were in ITR's shoe, would you have expect 2 spine crawlers to be positioned right next to the cliff? Ive personally never seen any zerg do this on LT.
Loads of Z players do this. He shoulda just sieged at the far end of the cliff. I think on ONE of the 4 bases, east spawn, on TL, the cliff and expansion are acutally like, that if you siege your tank at the back of the cliff and u have spinecrawelers, the sieged tank can still ht hte expo regardless, while being out of range of SC.
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baneling drops on sieged tanks = baneling explode damage even if siegetanks kill them+siege friendly fire on the siege tanks if they shoot at the banelings before the banelings explode-- optimizing damage of the drops (edit: also draws some siege fire away from your units pushing towards the tanks)
using mutas more for blocking drop paths than letting them be vulnerable while harassing bases
while cross-expanding looks hard to defend, he shows it is able to be defended from 1-2 dropship harass..-- and if they attack it full on, they are very vulnerable to counter attacks while 1 will remain
optimizing your play with the vision/mobility of zerg, generally, until you can ultra/infestor/ling/roach/baneling(drop) them and trade armies until they can't keep up with your economy
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Things i learned from watching:
1 ) Zerg > Terran
2) Terran < Zerg
3) Zerg users need to whine less and play more.
People who read this plz take a moment before u start raging and count to 10.
(Question to moderator, why are u temp banning / warning users for saying zerg players need to whine less? its not allowed to give ur own oppinion here in the forums?)
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 02 2010 21:17 IAttackYou wrote:
Its scary how good Fruitdealer is. Thats what I learned o_O
1. It is not about how you think the race is weak, it is about how to be able to fully utilize strength of what is given. I think we can all take that away from the GSL finals.
fully utilize strength of Zerg vs fully utilize strength of Terran
who would win?
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This topic seems to bring out the worst out of people
Let's not talk about balance here at all. Let us take the game as it is currently, and talk about what fruitseller did to make him so good and his particular styles of playing.
This is what this topic is about. A few more annoying judgmental replies referring to balance and other complaints about either Zerg or Terran players and we're just going to have to close this.
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I learned that I was right: I'm saying for months that zerg is unbeatable when played correctly, and believe me, zergs haven't discovered everything. The thing is that zerg has a harder learningcurve and is developing slow, while terran and toss were much faster. That's the exact reason why it felt imbalanced to people. Zerg is much harder to play but when played correctly there is no way that you will beat them, especially not in a macro game. Early harass is the only option for terran imo.
I'm not saying that Zerg is imbalanced! I hope I don't get a ban for this. If this is an inappropriate poste then pm me, I will delete it.
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He just showed me why you should NEVER follow lings near the smoke/tall grass =(((
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Did anyone see what upgrades cool got for his units in games 2-5? I'm curious if he ever got ranged attack upgrade for roaches or just stuck with melee + carapace the whole time(even though he didn't end up getting to Ultras in any of those games). And which upgrades did he pick up first? I noticed he only had 1 evo chamber a few times.
and he taught me that infestors are freakin awesome :p
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Cool played extremely well and he deserves the win.
Gave lots of cool ideas on how to push the Zerg play 
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Overlord drops in the main base makes me scared.
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Kulas Ravine is an advantage when expanding to Gold to stop harassment from T by using Overlord, 2 spine crawlers and 3 roaches.
Counter pressure opponent when he's trying to push you with an immobile army which usually results in T having no army in base (game 2 and 3).
Overlord Sacs are underused and underrated with baneling drops on tanks.
Teching multiple things makes T guessing what you are going (greater spire to fake brood lords making T make useless vikings lawl).
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I didnt think I would see zergs this talented so early into SC2s life, but from the very first week of beta I knew zergs were EVENTUALLY going to totally dominate this game. Cool just showed how/why. The more we get players like him, who are smart and great decision making style players, not just sit-in-base til 200/200 macro zergs like we saw all beta.. zerg is going to dominate.
Sure, theres less skilled zerg players playing right now, but in no way does that mean they suck/underpowered, as proven today.
A good zerg like Cool is my worst nightmare, just like playing a Jaedong style zerg on BW.
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On October 02 2010 22:22 Aborash wrote:
I just got one simple question:
I think, that everyones agree, that the strongest terran strategy is bioball. Marines, marauders and medivacs.
Specially since the last tank nerf.
So the question is:
Why Hopetorture didnt try to bio in a single game?
I'm not sure, but may be HT got so many nerves (Who dont?)
Don't make assumptions that are totally wrong. Terran bioball gets shut down by banelings, and muta/ling/baneling with lots of harass, because that also stops drops. That's why pretty much every terran goes a mix of thor/tank/marine/marauder. Tanks kill banelings and are good in general and thors long range shuts down muta harass and soaks a lot of baneling damage as well as being solid anti ground.
Pure bio can work, but it requires a really agressive playstyle with lots of drops, and is usually better off a mass reaper opening that puts Z on the back foot because there banelings are so effective against barracks units (except ghosts)
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the FD taught me that weaknesses is in your mind
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I think next to the nice units mix is that he taught Zerg how to be played properly - macro oriented. He always tries to be one base ahead and so he was, he has proper surrounds and his stuff everywhere - what did you expect a few weeks ago 2basing against a 2base Terran and attacking him straight into his choke? I think Fruitdealer was a perfect example and I wish him any success he deserves. I hope we see more of this playstyle and varity in the next GSL when a few more, big names, participate along with hopefully a bunch of non-koreans!
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FD taught me to believe 0_0
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Despite early pressure AKA proxy reaper rush, you can get away with expo with ease... somehow.
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United States12607 Posts
On October 02 2010 22:12 YyapSsap wrote:
Even though I dont play zerg, he has shown so many things that many zerg players dont really do against T. Heres the following that I thought were ingenious.
1) Stopping the tank drops on cliffs. When we look at maps like Kulas or LT where its riddled with cliffs i.e. perfect for tank drops, I dont see any zerg defending their nat like FD did. By placing the overlord near the cliff with 2 spin crawlers, this seriously blocked any sort of damage that could of happened at the natural
Spine crawlers + OL is probably the most common way to deal with tank and thor drops on LT. Actually this strategy is so prevalent that I'm confused how so many posters in this thread think that it's a new innovation.
Edit: to prove my point, I searched "IdrA [to get a Zerg] Lost Temple" on YouTube and clicked the first video that came up:
+ Show Spoiler [the VOD] +
In it, IdrA uses spine crawlers and overlords to defend his cliff. However (unlike Rainbow) Silver brings marines and is able to make the drop work.
(I don't intend to take anything away from Cool's big win, but thought that was worth pointing out.)
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On October 02 2010 23:10 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 22:12 YyapSsap wrote:
Even though I dont play zerg, he has shown so many things that many zerg players dont really do against T. Heres the following that I thought were ingenious.
1) Stopping the tank drops on cliffs. When we look at maps like Kulas or LT where its riddled with cliffs i.e. perfect for tank drops, I dont see any zerg defending their nat like FD did. By placing the overlord near the cliff with 2 spin crawlers, this seriously blocked any sort of damage that could of happened at the natural Spine crawlers + OL is probably the most common way to deal with tank and thor drops on LT. Actually this strategy is so prevalent that I'm confused how so many posters in this thread think that it's a new innovation. (I don't intend to take anything away from Cool's big win, but thought that was worth pointing out.)
I haven't seen the uprooting in/out of tank range before though. Is this common practice?
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On October 02 2010 22:23 DraWx wrote:
Things i learned from watching:
1 ) Zerg > Terran
2) Terran < Zerg
3) Zerg users need to whine less and play more.
People who read this plz take a moment before u start raging and count to 10.
(Question to moderator, why are u temp banning / warning users for saying zerg players need to whine less? its not allowed to give ur own oppinion here in the forums?)
User was temp banned for this post.
Because you're trolling. You're not contributing anything to the topic at hand, and you are just saying things to incite negative emotions from other users.
On topic, FD showed me that even at a racial disadvantage, if I play well and practice hard enough, I can overcome any obstacle.
This has definitely been an inspiring turn of events.
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On October 02 2010 21:09 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
in game 2 on lost temple, ITR threatened both banshees and tank cliff drop. Cool responded very smartly by making 3 queens and teching to lair, which allowed him to stop the potential cloaked banshees, but at the same time significantly delay a tank cliff drop by using crawlers next to the cliff + transfusion without sacrificing larvae injection.
and just by the way, i think 2 base mech timing pushes would be strong against cool's style... hit while or before he does that massive tech drop.
Pretty much this. Was a very interesting LT build that I'm going to shamelessly steal.
EDIT: more the fact that you can actually transition out of it smoothly than anything else. I didn't think it was actually very stable at all.
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Maybe someone have already mastered a good part of the game and now u dont have to face a race or a map but a player, and a good one :p
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On October 02 2010 22:46 Skyze wrote:
I didnt think I would see zergs this talented so early into SC2s life, but from the very first week of beta I knew zergs were EVENTUALLY going to totally dominate this game. Cool just showed how/why. The more we get players like him, who are smart and great decision making style players, not just sit-in-base til 200/200 macro zergs like we saw all beta.. zerg is going to dominate.
Sure, theres less skilled zerg players playing right now, but in no way does that mean they suck/underpowered, as proven today.
A good zerg like Cool is my worst nightmare, just like playing a Jaedong style zerg on BW.
Ummm... weren't roaches completely dominant in the first half of the beta?
The current Zerg issues didn't arrise until the end of phase 1 when the roach was nerfed into the ground and the zerg army was left without a core unit.
<3 made up stories though
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On October 02 2010 23:10 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 22:12 YyapSsap wrote:
Even though I dont play zerg, he has shown so many things that many zerg players dont really do against T. Heres the following that I thought were ingenious.
1) Stopping the tank drops on cliffs. When we look at maps like Kulas or LT where its riddled with cliffs i.e. perfect for tank drops, I dont see any zerg defending their nat like FD did. By placing the overlord near the cliff with 2 spin crawlers, this seriously blocked any sort of damage that could of happened at the natural Spine crawlers + OL is probably the most common way to deal with tank and thor drops on LT. Actually this strategy is so prevalent that I'm confused how so many posters in this thread think that it's a new innovation. Edit: to prove my point, I searched "IdrA [to get a Zerg] Lost Temple" on YouTube and clicked the first video that came up: + Show Spoiler [the VOD] +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_ASm0XvvA In it, IdrA uses spine crawlers and overlords to defend his cliff. However (unlike Rainbow) Silver brings marines and is able to make the drop work. (I don't intend to take anything away from Cool's big win, but thought that was worth pointing out.)
But look how bad he positioned his spines - if he had 2 of them ready near the cliff he could have defended that much better. And that one which was already in position still was not near the cliff, so he couldn't reach the cliff.
I don't say it's easy to defend cliff drop but IdrA really could have made much better.
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United States12607 Posts
On October 02 2010 23:34 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 23:10 JWD wrote:On October 02 2010 22:12 YyapSsap wrote:
Even though I dont play zerg, he has shown so many things that many zerg players dont really do against T. Heres the following that I thought were ingenious.
1) Stopping the tank drops on cliffs. When we look at maps like Kulas or LT where its riddled with cliffs i.e. perfect for tank drops, I dont see any zerg defending their nat like FD did. By placing the overlord near the cliff with 2 spin crawlers, this seriously blocked any sort of damage that could of happened at the natural Spine crawlers + OL is probably the most common way to deal with tank and thor drops on LT. Actually this strategy is so prevalent that I'm confused how so many posters in this thread think that it's a new innovation. Edit: to prove my point, I searched "IdrA [to get a Zerg] Lost Temple" on YouTube and clicked the first video that came up: + Show Spoiler [the VOD] +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_ASm0XvvA In it, IdrA uses spine crawlers and overlords to defend his cliff. However (unlike Rainbow) Silver brings marines and is able to make the drop work. (I don't intend to take anything away from Cool's big win, but thought that was worth pointing out.) But look how bad he positioned his spines - if he had 2 of them ready near the cliff he could have defended that much better. And that one which was already in position still was not near the cliff, so he couldn't reach the cliff. I don't say it's easy to defend cliff drop but IdrA really could have made much better.
Wow, you've completely missed my point. I only posted that game to prove that using spine crawlers + OL to defend cliff drops is a common strategy. I didn't say anything about the quality of anyone's play.
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that Hydras are STILL bad against terran (i knew they were bad.. but didnt test after the tank nerf)
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On October 02 2010 23:45 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 23:34 Alpina wrote:On October 02 2010 23:10 JWD wrote:On October 02 2010 22:12 YyapSsap wrote:
Even though I dont play zerg, he has shown so many things that many zerg players dont really do against T. Heres the following that I thought were ingenious.
1) Stopping the tank drops on cliffs. When we look at maps like Kulas or LT where its riddled with cliffs i.e. perfect for tank drops, I dont see any zerg defending their nat like FD did. By placing the overlord near the cliff with 2 spin crawlers, this seriously blocked any sort of damage that could of happened at the natural Spine crawlers + OL is probably the most common way to deal with tank and thor drops on LT. Actually this strategy is so prevalent that I'm confused how so many posters in this thread think that it's a new innovation. Edit: to prove my point, I searched "IdrA [to get a Zerg] Lost Temple" on YouTube and clicked the first video that came up: + Show Spoiler [the VOD] +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_ASm0XvvA In it, IdrA uses spine crawlers and overlords to defend his cliff. However (unlike Rainbow) Silver brings marines and is able to make the drop work. (I don't intend to take anything away from Cool's big win, but thought that was worth pointing out.) But look how bad he positioned his spines - if he had 2 of them ready near the cliff he could have defended that much better. And that one which was already in position still was not near the cliff, so he couldn't reach the cliff. I don't say it's easy to defend cliff drop but IdrA really could have made much better. Wow, you've completely missed my point. I only posted that game to prove that using spine crawlers + OL to defend cliff drops is a common strategy. I didn't say anything about the quality of anyone's play.
Ahh sorry then. Yeah I agree, most higher level players use that strat, cause there isn't much you can do. Spines + mutas/drops/infestors.
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On October 02 2010 23:45 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 23:34 Alpina wrote:On October 02 2010 23:10 JWD wrote:On October 02 2010 22:12 YyapSsap wrote:
Even though I dont play zerg, he has shown so many things that many zerg players dont really do against T. Heres the following that I thought were ingenious.
1) Stopping the tank drops on cliffs. When we look at maps like Kulas or LT where its riddled with cliffs i.e. perfect for tank drops, I dont see any zerg defending their nat like FD did. By placing the overlord near the cliff with 2 spin crawlers, this seriously blocked any sort of damage that could of happened at the natural Spine crawlers + OL is probably the most common way to deal with tank and thor drops on LT. Actually this strategy is so prevalent that I'm confused how so many posters in this thread think that it's a new innovation. Edit: to prove my point, I searched "IdrA [to get a Zerg] Lost Temple" on YouTube and clicked the first video that came up: + Show Spoiler [the VOD] +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_ASm0XvvA In it, IdrA uses spine crawlers and overlords to defend his cliff. However (unlike Rainbow) Silver brings marines and is able to make the drop work. (I don't intend to take anything away from Cool's big win, but thought that was worth pointing out.) But look how bad he positioned his spines - if he had 2 of them ready near the cliff he could have defended that much better. And that one which was already in position still was not near the cliff, so he couldn't reach the cliff. I don't say it's easy to defend cliff drop but IdrA really could have made much better. Wow, you've completely missed my point. I only posted that game to prove that using spine crawlers + OL to defend cliff drops is a common strategy. I didn't say anything about the quality of anyone's play.
Yeah it is, though normally you need to move them over first since you can't afford to build extra ones to defend cliff while also defending your front. LT also has the problem with the cliffs being so large that the spines can't reach far enough to hit siege tanks at the back. However on Kulas gold base, it seemed to fit perfectly.
Seemed to me like he always played the maps really well and planned his builds extremely well.
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I don't play Zerg but I think most people responding in this thread forgot that he played around 11 terrans to get to the finals don't just look at the ITR game other top terrans and favorites cool went through to get to finals. His play evolved each round. He didnt stay stagnant. He was mobile he had all the tech at his disposal. He expanded when he should have or double expanded. I can't say that his play was anything super duper brilliant he used every ability that Zerg has at their disposal. Drops nydus, I thought for a long time why people dont drop speedlings into opponents main. 15 speedlings are much harder to kill running around than marauders and marines. They might not snipe a nexus or CC but they will do econ damage and are pesky to deal with.
Really round after round he made TvZ look easier and easier.
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Hydra are even in the hand of Fruitseller not worth, Roaches would have cleaned up in Game4.
Overlord drops are great!
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I have learned that I am absolutely terrible at Zerg and totally playing it wrong. :O
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On October 02 2010 22:16 Ganondorf wrote:
He showed all of us that the metagame still needs to evolve before complaining about balance issues.
And this is why Blizzard didn't make any 'large' balance changes last patch, like some people were asking for. The game's only been out 2 months and 5 days since release, and not all the strats have been found yet, as shown here.
(If this is inappropriate, feel free to delete. I just think it's great that someone exists who didn't listen to all the balance chatter and showed the rest of us the way.)
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I have learned that SC2 can produce great enjoyable games worth watching
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...Are some of you guys serious? Holding larvae and resources in reserve while waiting for tech to kick in is a novel idea to you? -_- This has been standard in zerg play since SC1... Look at how the pros do muta timings or guardian morphs etc. I don't know who came up with the dumb idea of res float = noob, but it definitely doesn't apply to zerg. At least not until you're like late game hive tech with all upgrades already.
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Thanks for clearing that up. I really stuck to the res float=bad idea during my play. So whenever I stock up on minerals I get an urge to spend them on anything at all. Maybe I should change my mindset and play more naturally instead of forcing myself to not float my res.
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On October 02 2010 23:10 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 22:12 YyapSsap wrote:
Even though I dont play zerg, he has shown so many things that many zerg players dont really do against T. Heres the following that I thought were ingenious.
1) Stopping the tank drops on cliffs. When we look at maps like Kulas or LT where its riddled with cliffs i.e. perfect for tank drops, I dont see any zerg defending their nat like FD did. By placing the overlord near the cliff with 2 spin crawlers, this seriously blocked any sort of damage that could of happened at the natural Spine crawlers + OL is probably the most common way to deal with tank and thor drops on LT. Actually this strategy is so prevalent that I'm confused how so many posters in this thread think that it's a new innovation. Edit: to prove my point, I searched "IdrA [to get a Zerg] Lost Temple" on YouTube and clicked the first video that came up: + Show Spoiler [the VOD] +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_ASm0XvvA In it, IdrA uses spine crawlers and overlords to defend his cliff. However (unlike Rainbow) Silver brings marines and is able to make the drop work. (I don't intend to take anything away from Cool's big win, but thought that was worth pointing out.)
Yep. surprised ITR didnt bring rines and chose to build turrets instead. But yeah this isnt new.
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I am now officially scared of banelings even though I don't even play T
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This series only proved to me that the meta-game still needs to evolve. In this particular case, Terran players need to back away from the harass, 1 base play styles and start utilizing macro and all of their tech options. A few months from now, we will start to see Terrans experimenting more with all of their tech options (Ravens in particular), and then the ZvT meta-game will evolve based around that. Eventually the stages of game play will become clearly defined, like how it is in Brood War.
Also, this series clearly shows the potential this game has when truly good players play SC2, especially those who were really good in the original Starcraft. Unfortunately, I don't see non-koreans remaining competitive in the long term, not as long as all of the main SC2 events are hosted in Korea.
Oh and, Cool is awesome. Macro, micro, strategy, creativity, and game sense. Many of the favorites of these forums exhibit only one or a few of these traits, but few exhibit all of them. I'm looking forward to seeing a good Terran player with the same level of play as Cool.
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Like others have pointed out, his ability to defend EXTREMELY well with low supply and get 5 upgrades and tech structures at the same time as droning mid-game, as well as using overlords as a part of the main attacking force. Kudos, my zerg friend, kudos.
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On October 03 2010 00:22 NeWnAr wrote:
Thanks for clearing that up. I really stuck to the res float=bad idea during my play. So whenever I stock up on minerals I get an urge to spend them on anything at all. Maybe I should change my mindset and play more naturally instead of forcing myself to not float my res.
As a Z user, my res tends to go up and down depending on what phase of the game I'm in. Early game there's almost never any money. Almost dead broke constantly. But at lair to hive tech, there are definitely key moments when you want the money to start stacking up. As spire's going up, I definitely always float around 5-600 gas. As infestor pit goes up, again 4 to 500 gas is normal. Or even when I'm dropping two evo chambers + lair teching, I'll let my res float up to 500/500 in preparation for getting 2 upgrades + ovie speed.
I don't know how T and P play, but it's totally ok to have float at certain times with Z. Now it's problematic when you're floating 1k/1k at lair tech and all you're building is roaches. That tends to mean you did not keep up with larvae injection, got supply capped several times, or there's just something very wrong with the build order. Or if you're going broodlords and there's 3k mins floating. That probably means something's really wrong with your unit comp or expansion rate to float that heavily, but even up to 1k/1k is no big deal as long as you have a plan for that float to be used within the next minute. I routinely save up that amount while going hive tech.
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What has impressed me is the fact that he's defending so well with so few unit while he's pumping drones and expo like crazy. I think it is the key of his play.He build time with infestor/backstab/counter-attack, to macro up and then: he got all tech, all upgrades and can pump every unit he wants to counter terran.
He's such a beast, i don't see why its even possible with every early push/all-in a terran can throw at you...
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On October 03 2010 00:26 GaMeOfFeAr wrote:
This series only proved to me that the meta-game still needs to evolve. In this particular case, Terran players need to back away from the harass, 1 base play styles and start utilizing macro and all of their tech options. A few months from now, we will start to see Terrans experimenting more with all of their tech options (Ravens in particular), and then the ZvT meta-game will evolve based around that. Eventually the stages of game play will become clearly defined, like how it is in Brood War.
Also, this series clearly shows the potential this game has when truly good players play SC2, especially those who were really good in the original Starcraft. Unfortunately, I don't see non-koreans remaining competitive in the long term, not as long as all of the main SC2 events are hosted in Korea.
Oh and, Cool is awesome. Macro, micro, strategy, creativity, and game sense. Many of the favorites of these forums exhibit only one or a few of these traits, but few exhibit all of them. I'm looking forward to seeing a good Terran player with the same level of play as Cool.
I don't see Terran evolving away from 1 base play vs Z for quite awhile. Mostly because of how effective speedling/baneling is versus bio. How exactly would Terran defend his early game expo vs a 1 base 2 hatch zerg? The fastest way possible right now is a siege expand, but that takes X amount of time no matter what. I just don't see Terran being able to get a CC down faster than that, saturate it so that it's actually worth it, and defend it properly. Especially with how mules work, there's just zero need for that.
I also don't see Ravens figuring that heavily into games because their spells suck vs zerg. Seeker missile is slow, so it only really works in a late game setting where the players have too much shit going on to micro away from it. And what does a seeker missile do that one thor shot can't do better? Other than that, all ravens have is the defense drone, which is only good vs ground troops as mutas can just move away from the drone and harass from another side, or if there are enough muta, just focus the drone and destroy it instantly. And the turret, which quite honestly is nothing special other than as a harassment tool. If you look at the gas cost of a raven and how long it takes to get out, I just don't see it as becoming a viable tool in ZvT. In a very late game setting, maybe it's worth it, but otherwise, Terran is too gas starved trying to go bio and mech to ever consider adding a raven in. Adding a Raven would mean losing a thor and I don't see that as worth it unless the Z is going mass burrowed roaches.
The only way I see the meta-game evolving heavily for TvZ on the Terran end is with a new map pool with much different layouts. There will definitely be more refinements of build orders and unit compositions, timing attacks, different ways to do drops/harass etc, but something on the level of Bisu-build fast expo with Terran, I just don't see that happening.
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i never thought one side was overly favored. I do agree terran was a bit op but zergs were so infatuated w/ that instead of improving on their zerg gameplay. Cool did the latter and when things were balanced a bit, his overwhelming victory proved it.
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He taught me that I should've made an inb4 "all-new-fruitseller-threads" thread, however I didn't heed his advice 
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while i think Cool did brilliantly in gsl s1, i honestly think that he won is partly because terran players didnt fully utilise the terran race, eg Raven use(pdd, missile), thor's aoe stun, banshee mixed/multi-prong harass, viking hunt overlord - MMM and bionic mech play are too easy to use and effective against everything, terran players stop being creative because of that. wait till we see reaperxhellion double harass next time lol
and obviously Cool's victory is a good message to tell us zerg players, if we do it right, we can still win i will try harder to improve myself.
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he remembers me of mondragon in bw, just building drones, only harass a little with a few zerglings here and there and after a couple of minutes he has hive and crushes you with swarm :D
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That when ppl were saying that zerg just needs to l2p they were right
User was temp banned for this post.
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Drop banelings...
On everything...
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Hydras are worst than corrupters in tvz.
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Slightly offtopic perhaps... forgive me.
I have been wondering this for a while. Why dont terrans use ghosts against infestors? EMP mainly that is. I play protoss myself so I might be missing something here that I dont see. Cool (and many other zerg players too) used infestors so effectively against ITR that I was wondering what few ghosts could have done there to EMP the infestors. Not like its huge investment in the mid/lategame, right?
Just loved how he spammed fungal on those marines and medivacs.
edit: and lets not forget about snipe ofc
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What I learned from FruitDealer : Expand WHILE a battle is going on.
After a mid-game battle ends, you can almost always see he had already built another hatch.
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i think we learned that ITR had a terrible day or the GSL is rigged... watched like 10 plus games of ITR v Cool from the last couple weeks pre and pst patch and not once did ITR do fast expand builds against Zerg... his timing pushes were ten times as deadly and executed 100 times better... so yah A or B you pick.
edit : not to mention all the harass I have seen ITR do in the early game was non existent today... not a single hellion ? Games dont really live up to the hype that is ZvT when the Terran lets the zerg drone and expand like crazy and tries to out macro him... same shit versus nexLiveForever... he had the kulas game in his hands and he tries to back into a macro guy by double expo in... seriously bullshit.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I learned that as soon as 1 incredibly good Zerg-player wins a tournament, everyone says zerg is balanced...
And hat Teran looses to Zergif they fail to apply any pressure at all early-game.
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Biggest thing in GSL for me was that it showed how awesome SC2 can be. I enjoyed this season a lot and we have even better incoming.
Cool is such a good hero zerg ^^ I think that even many non-terrans cheered for him.
I guess I need to use drops more, they were awesome
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On October 03 2010 01:23 kickinhead wrote:
I learned that as soon as 1 incredibly good Zerg-player wins a tournament, everyone says zerg is balanced...
And hat Teran looses to Zergif they fail to apply any pressure at all early-game.
With that way of thinking there is no way anyone can win an argument. If zerg wins its because the player is just that much better, but if Terran or Toss win then its because zerg is the weaker race. The question is, balanced for pros or noobs. Zerg is the hardest race to play so of course at lower levels they are going to seem weaker, but when a really good player plays them they are completely balanced. So the question is how to balance zerg at the lower levels
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Awesome series. Cool played like a god. It was absolutely amazing.
I've never seen anything like it before. Incredible. Spectacular.
I'm impressed, in case you couldn't tell.
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I learned that Banelings do much more damage to tanks than I thought and that Hydras are very underrated by most people around, which I like.
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On October 02 2010 22:28 Zozo wrote:
He just showed me why you should NEVER follow lings near the smoke/tall grass =(((
This. Oh man. If you play league of legends, I was picturing noobs who walk into the tall grass straight into Garen meleeing their face off when those reapers walked into the smoke.
It made me cringe and laugh and cheer all at once.
Other things I learned?
Overlord placement to intercept all forms of harass.
Infestors WRECK drop-based play. 1 spine cralwer will stall the drop long enough for you to react.
3 mutas is all you need to stop a medivac if you catch it in mid-flight, even if it's got 8 marines in it, but you'll lose the 3 mutas. I bet Fruit would'a loved to have scourge to simplify that but he used the tools he had.
Expand away from the opponent (already kinda knew that). but if you can't do that, expand in opposite directions from yourself.
You're the mobile zerg, you can get to your expansion in time to stop a drop or even a STIMMED SPRINT ACROSS THE MAP, if you have even very minimal defenses (but not zero) there.
Don't wait so long before getting hive tech. Go infestors, theyre awesome AND you get hive tech early enough to halt those 150-food-army (not counting workers!) pushes. (unlike the time he had the 15 ultras AFTER the 150 food army killed his army, and swept it clean)
That Greater Spire feint was awesome. I was really confused why rainbow had built vikings. Though, I think ACTUALLY getting brood lords in that situation would have been effective too; I think he could protect them with infestor corruptor.
When you're facing Fruit Dealer in the finals... who can you go to for a practice partner? He's playing on a VERY crisp level compared to everyone else. I was watching the games being like "Ok, can't you just kill him earlier? He didn't have more than 10 lings until 2 minutes ago I swear!"
But Fruit Dealer's recon and timings were so good, he knew just when to react and defend himself, while absolutely MAXIMIZING drones. He knew when to slap down those spines to defend against the cliff drop, and they finished very shortly after the medivac was done. And on kulas, that roach positioning to complement his spine crawler was so perfect. And only 3 roaches! So minimal, but obviously enough to deal with what HopeTorture could bring to the field when he's rushing tank + siegemode + medivac.
Learned some really neat stuff from HopeTorture that would have CRUSHED lesser zergs, like putting up the turret on the lost temple / kulas ravine ledges to support your tank drop against early mutas.
Incorporating thors into your standard army very early on is going to really make the zerg think twice about building mutas, since they can't do ANYTHING with the mutas for quite some time. Sure, if they have huge muta numbers they could magic box (if you don't have marines with you) but if your thors are showing up at the same time their mutas, they'll cut their muta numbers drastically, giving you freedom to use medivacs more. (Granted, Fruit Dealer was stopping drops with THREE MUTALISKS, but I think against someone who didnt have absofrigginlutely perfect overlord placement and reaction speed, those drops would have crippled the zerg.)
I also learned it was totally worth staying up til 5AM to watch these matches.
Fruit Dealer Fighting! HopeTorture Fighting!
I really wanted Hope to win another match or two, would have liked to watch 7 games instead of 5!!
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I learned that the person moderating this thread is apparently Zerg judging by the posts that are being warned for no reason.
As with all GSL's I only managed to stay awake for the first 2 games, was really trying to watch the entire series but the super long breaks in between matches didn't help. Before the stream I was pulling for ITR but after Tastless/Artosis divulged the story besides AFruitDealers new name I definitely had to root for him.
He was just doing things I've never seen any Zergs do before, but I'm sure I'll see a lot more of soon. Zerg is just so powerful in the late game and any harass ITR was trying to do in the early game just got stuffed immediately.
"Lets trade armies, then 3 minutes later I'm going to have 10 ultras already. GG"
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On October 02 2010 21:10 floor exercise wrote:
Know exactly what build your opponent is going to do and counter it before seeing it. Wait what?
User was warned for this post
I'm surprised this got a warning. Nobody else felt like Cool was psychic in his ability to predict his opponents builds, attacks and positioning? It was truly amazing. He seemed to know exactly how many units to make and where to position them. I was hoping for a longer series but I'm so glad he won it doesn't matter.
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My fault for only posting a one liner and not explaining what i meant
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He just showed that you need to be a complex player when owning with Zerg and be able to use all features.
His early game is so much stronger compared to zergs like Idra, because his opponents have to prepare for both gay cheeses, 1 Base rushes and 'safe' macro based games, he can do all of them.
And then his lategame...he was the first one to show us what potential zerg has with creep spreading, nydus, infestors, ultras, drops...he makes use of all of them and is a monster.
Zerg vs Terran may be imbalanced for weak players because they can't make use of all the above, but Cool shoved us that top level Zv T or P will not be a problem at all.
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this series will become the one and ultimate argument of terrans in the upcoming Terran vs Zerg rage flame fights which will happen here, sadly.
I for one am happy for fruitdealer he deserved this more then anyone.
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fungal growth + blings drops will destroy everything ground.
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What definetly made him one class better then everyone else was stuff like the gold expansion defense on Kulas. He showed really nice new strategies, and won with them when it counted.
Big big baller
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The defense on LT was great, the expansion at Kulas was also brutal. Next time I for sure double expand into two far spots too. I do not understand how he could have shut down the harass so well, he is really genius.
On the other hand I do not understand why Itr:
-never did one base harass/timing push - mmm, thor/helion/scv
-used tank/marine against someone who does ling/bling/infestor every time, thor/helion would IMO be much better; also splitting death ball and getting peeled one by one... if he just parked in FD's natural instead of suiciding marines into one expansion, he would be better off
Zerg can defend quite well when he has 3 bases, most of the tech and creep all over. But letting him get to this spot without any harass or timing push is IMO the reason why ITR lost. He got intimidated and tried to go straight macro race with econ all-ining Zerg - not a good idea. Plus really exceptional and imaginative play with insane micro from FD, he is jujst so good!
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Cool kept up with his creep-pushing, but he didn't over-do it like some players do. Just enough to connect his bases, maybe creep up to a Xelnaga Watchtower, but that's about it.
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Zerg and Cool Fighting! Swarm power!! :D
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On October 02 2010 22:22 Aborash wrote:
I just got one simple question:
I think, that everyones agree, that the strongest terran strategy is bioball. Marines, marauders and medivacs.
Specially since the last tank nerf.
So the question is:
Why Hopetorture didnt try to bio in a single game?
I'm not sure, but may be HT got so many nerves (Who dont?)
Ling/baneling/muta clean up pure bio. When infestors are thrown in it gets even easier.
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FD has taught me is that the Zergs need to develop a kind of starsense of when to expand, drone up and defend. Too often, I see Zergs play too defensively and not expand and consequently get stomped by a 2-base opponent. Or on the contrary, they play over greedy and get hit by a timing attack.
The 2nd interesting thing is that we've seen the evolution of defence. ITR went for some sort of harassment type build in 3 games (games 2,3,5) and lost all of them badly. On the contrary, his very early expand in game 4 saw him match FD economically. I also feel that ITR was doing well in game 1 until he split his army too much. Note the semis in ITR vs Ensare, where his 1-rax FE stomped Ensnare. Are we going to see SC2 evolve into a BW early expand style?
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I think one of the main reasons that Cool seemed so well prepared for ITR's strategies was simply because there are so many top-level terrans to practice against that Cool was already familiar with most, if not all, the strategies ITR could possibly throw at him.
The sheer brilliance to think one step ahead of his opponent every time was what really made the "strategy" in RTS truly shine in this series. Take for example the Kulas Ravine game, where Cool took the gold, knowing that a drop on the ledge would inevitably come. He prepares perfectly with the roaches/overlord positioning, and Nydus worm's the main knowing that his opponent would have a small force to fight it with. Brilliant.
Cool is simply on another level here folks, and I can't wait to see more of him and other players of his caliber in the GSL 2.
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I think Cool was looking at ITR's match history. The game on Desert Oasis was particularily telling, since he only scouted a barracks with a tech lab yet did an unconventional build that countered ITR's mass marines perfectly. And of course on all the other games he had little scouting but very good counters as well.
Cool kept up with his creep-pushing, but he didn't over-do it like some players do.
I think iDra is guilty of that. He focuses way tooo much on creep and really neglects many other aspects of the game.
I learned that as soon as 1 incredibly good Zerg-player wins a tournament, everyone says zerg is balanced...
And hat Teran looses to Zergif they fail to apply any pressure at all early-game.
He absolutely dominated possibly the best Terran in the world, and really what other major tournaments have there been? I can only think of 4 biggish ones, and even those can't compare to GSL.
Also ITR applied pressure, Cool was just able to minimize the damage.
Incorporating thors into your standard army very early on is going to really make the zerg think twice about building mutas
Not really, mutas are mainly to stop harassment and keep the Terran locked in his base for a bit. Also I think lots (most?) of Terrans already go for early thors vs. muta...
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That greater spire wasn't really a fake. It was just a really good move.
Because at any time, he COULD switch to Brood Lords, if he saw that terran wasn't making vikings.
But because he did make vikings, he didn't have to switch.
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On October 02 2010 22:05 Winter_mute wrote:
1. He definitely fortified my notion NEVER to build hydras in ZvT. I know people started building them after the tank nerf and Dimaga played some nice mass/queens/hydras with lots and lots of creep, but they don't provide anything that I can't get in a bette way simply by building other units.
2. I am still not sure how he managed to drop so nicely. Overlords are slow as hell (1.88), meaning you can run away from them with hydras or unstimmed bio. I would guess it worked because:
A) when fleeing, you seperate the slower thors from the rest of the army (leaving them vulnerable to ling souround)
B) you can catch sieged tanks
C) fungal + ovi drop
D) you can block his escape route / flank
However I need to watch the replays to be sure that was the case.
3. I have to learn that sick multitasking.
I think its worth it to have a few hydras.
Its just hard to manage them-- you can't let them get hit by ANYTHING or they become terrible. Once whatever meatshield you have is dead, run your hydras away-- or they will be dead in about 0.5 seconds. Basically you build hydras once you have enough roaches that in a normal encounter, range will start to limit your Roaches and you have enough HP from the roaches that some more DPS in the back helps. My 2 cents.
Also depends on creep management and how much you want to micro. Hydras BEG to be focus-fired and used to kite things.
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i learned that ITR doesn't watch his day9 dailies enough. when your opponent is doing all these crazy expos and teching while skipping units, just go fucking kill him. ITR found his only success was two base play in game 4 which coincidentally he still played sloppy.
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On October 03 2010 07:24 Terranist wrote:
i learned that ITR doesn't watch his day9 dailies enough. when your opponent is doing all these crazy expos and teching while skipping units, just go fucking kill him. ITR found his only success was two base play in game 4 which coincidentally he still played sloppy.
yeah, ITR is really going to turn to day9 for advice :/
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Fruitseller has confirmed in my eyes the overall synergy of the infestor with the idea behind the Zerg race. We have had so many posts on Zerg being a REACTIONARY race, but at the same time the maps just don't allow for enough time to react. Well, newsflash, infestors can buy you a bucketfull of time, ESPECIALLY with burrow which I don't think(?) even Cool utilized very much. Spread expos and more burrowed infestor play I expect and hope to see a lot more than this from Zerg.
I know it's a topic for debate and I'm not gonna comment on balance, but I bloody love to watch TvZ, it feels like there is such potential for these long games, and when they do get into the macro stage they are easily the best spectacle in SC2 at the moment.
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It's not so much about unit composition as it is about positioning. So many games he had roach-ling-baneling-infestor or some other seemingly random composition, but delayed the push and flanked perfectly to crush his opponent, like the scrap station game vs LiveForever.
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On October 02 2010 21:14 evanthebouncy! wrote:
I also get this feeling, correct me if I'm wrong, that you can actually make larvae and combat units at the same time like how they do it in T,P? I mean nothing's constraining us anymore, why not sneak in some drones while making army?
Ya, that would be the safe way to go. But if youre pretty sure your opponent isnt going to attack you for a while, you can push yourself significantly ahead in econ by making all drones with all your larva. At the same time, if you know when theyre attacking and what theyre attacking you with, spamming all your larva into the right combat units will give you a better chance to successfully defend than if you were spending a couple larvae on drones during each larva spawn/inject. If youre about to attack, obviously spending all your larva on the combat units will give you a better chance to win.
Of course, the problem with doing this is if you predict wrong, you can find yourself with not enough units to defend or not enough drones to keep up in the long run. Its also tougher to figure out too since zerg dont have nice scouting units like observers or scan.
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I think the lesson to take from Fruit Dealer comes from his losses. The only games he lost it's when he deviated from his strengths.
1) Loss vs TOP he did a silly nydus all in, completely throwing away the huge macro advantage he always has when he plays his normal game.
2) Loss vs HopeTorture he went hydras. I don't think the lesson here is that hydras are horrible like some people seem to have taken from it, rather the people who have had success with hydras also have the entire map purple in 10 minutes. Fruit Dealer isn't an aggressive creep spreader therefore going hydras doesn't really mesh well with his play.
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Some lessons I took away from the finals:
1) Don't be afraid to FE, even when you don't have a diagonal spawn. You can hold it with proper play.
2) Ling/bling with infestors is a powerful alternative to ultras that will keep your opponent guessing.
3) Overlord drops should be a staple part of every Zerg's arsenal, period.
4) If the map isn't big, or you spawn close to your opponent, MAKE THE MAP BIG by expanding to unorthodox locations. The terran will be spread thin, and Zerg mobility will keep you in the game.
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He taught me, if anything, that zerg is not underpowered, just not used correctly.
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Lots of things. Mainly two:
-Expand twice when mutas come out, on opposite ends of the map. The drones become what's important to economy, not the hatcheries, so save the drones.
-Keep a simple army at each expo. A spine crawler or two, a couple lings, and an infestor can scare away any one-medivac drop.
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He's taught me quite a bit but I think the main thing is that he's taught zerg how to not be scared and sit in their base. I played 3 zergs in a row this morning right after the GSL with hellion-Thor mech and got bling busted in each of them lol.
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what he has told me is to know your opponent to try to anticipate his actions
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He has taught me that Z doesnt suck but I do ..
Also his way of playing is much what I think blizzard wanted Zergs to do, terran has killed 1 hatchery of mine, fine I will do 2 more ...
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On October 03 2010 06:57 attackfighter wrote:Show nested quote +Cool kept up with his creep-pushing, but he didn't over-do it like some players do. I think iDra is guilty of that. He focuses way tooo much on creep and really neglects many other aspects of the game.
How can focusing on something that is essentially a free speed upgrade for all of your units be bad? The only way I can see creep spread ever being bad for Zerg is if they spend too much money on queens or lose overlords dropping creep. I assure you, IdrA has enough mechanical skill to spread creep effectively while managing the other aspects of the game. Cool didn't play absolutely perfectly in those games. He played incredibly well, but there's definitely room for improvement, such as his creep spread. The game's only been out for a few months; no one plays anywhere close to perfectly. So don't take everything Cool does as the definitive word on Zerg play. He's the best Zerg in the world, but he's not perfect.
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On October 03 2010 11:28 Rybka wrote:
3) Overlord drops should be a staple part of every Zerg's arsenal, period.
Easier said the done. I agree it's very powerful but you can't expect all Zerg players to psychically know the exact minimum amount of forces to make to hold early which is what allowed him to accumulate the massive amount of gas required.
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On October 03 2010 11:38 sudo.era wrote:
He taught me, if anything, that zerg is not underpowered, just not used correctly.
for those of you that keep typing stuff like this, cool himself said he still believes that zerg is underpowered in his post match interview.
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On October 02 2010 21:11 Phenrei wrote:
His use of larva is very unique. He would store and let himself get to 1k or even 2k min/gas, then once his tech pops he has enough larva to blow it all on ultras/mutas/roaches/banes. It seems like the antithesis of good macro play, but with how zergs work it might just be the best option. It obviously works for him.
that's really oldschool for scbw. Expanding like crazy and roll over with ultra, spare some larva and don't macro at all. Doesn't work against aggressive terrans/protoss
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Man anyone who actually watched those games could see it had nothing to do with the races and was only about the players. Cool played perfect, rainbow made numerous mistakes. You really can't use this matches to say balance is perfect.
However, you can definitely say that SC2 is anything but broken or unplayable. The game is in great shape, I'm excited,
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On October 02 2010 21:10 floor exercise wrote:
Know exactly what build your opponent is going to do and counter it before seeing it. Wait what?
User was warned for this post
No honestly, I kinda am wondering about this. Don't want to get warned or banned or whatever, but HOW THE HECK did he see all that coming? Almost every scout, every drop, every push, even preemptive counters that he does before knowing what's truly going on (Desert Oasis) that he did just seemed inhuman.
I understand good scouting and meta game senses were on his side, but can someone explain to this newb (me) how the heck he did all that without being a psychic or a cheater?
Why? Because I wanna be that good. =D
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Honestly what I learned from watching cool is you need great sense of timings, like when the push is coming and make drones up until that, he won the finals by having perfect macromanagement and deflecting harassment because he knew the timings of when they would appear and not sacrifice any economy until then, god damn he is good.
people who say ITR sucks are stupid.. he is litterly one of if not the best terran in the world, you are just a random forum whiner..cmon have some perspective.
initially I thought cool used mutalisks to little but after watching him in the gsl I am starting to think I use them to much instead.
also I learned hydralisks are still not viable against terran (game 4 on desert oasis) marines marauders still dance circles around these immobile crapunits.
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On October 03 2010 12:40 nK)Duke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 21:11 Phenrei wrote:
His use of larva is very unique. He would store and let himself get to 1k or even 2k min/gas, then once his tech pops he has enough larva to blow it all on ultras/mutas/roaches/banes. It seems like the antithesis of good macro play, but with how zergs work it might just be the best option. It obviously works for him. that's really oldschool for scbw. Expanding like crazy and roll over with ultra, spare some larva and don't macro at all. Doesn't work against aggressive terrans/protoss
There were definitely times where terran could have pushed and won but I really like Cool's use of infestors to stall for time for his ultras to get out. Fungal growth is so great! Also, threatening counters with lings helps to hold terrans in their base.
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On October 03 2010 12:59 arnold(soTa) wrote:
Honestly what I learned from watching cool is you need great sense of timings, like when the push is coming and make drones up until that, he won the finals by having perfect macromanagement and deflecting harassment because he knew the timings of when they would appear and not sacrifice any economy until then, god damn he is good.
people who say ITR sucks are stupid.. he is litterly one of if not the best terran in the world, you are just a random forum whiner..cmon have some perspective.
initially I thought cool used mutalisks to little but after watching him in the gsl I am starting to think I use them to much instead.
also I learned hydralisks are still not viable against terran (game 4 on desert oasis) marines marauders still dance circles around these immobile crapunits.
Agreed about the mutas and hydras. Just think if you get three less mutas you can research ovie drop and speed which is starting to prove to be super valuable against terran especially with banelings dropping and dropping roaches on tanks while attacking from the front and fungal growthing.
edit: sorry about double post. I meant to edit this into the last post.
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On October 03 2010 12:49 MusiK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 21:10 floor exercise wrote:
Know exactly what build your opponent is going to do and counter it before seeing it. Wait what?
User was warned for this post No honestly, I kinda am wondering about this. Don't want to get warned or banned or whatever, but HOW THE HECK did he see all that coming? Almost every scout, every drop, every push, even preemptive counters that he does before knowing what's truly going on (Desert Oasis) that he did just seemed inhuman. I understand good scouting and meta game senses were on his side, but can someone explain to this newb (me) how the heck he did all that without being a psychic or a cheater? Why? Because I wanna be that good. =D
Play the game a lot and perfect your sense of timing pretty much. There is a common assumption that scouting\intel means seeing a tech building. THIS IS NOT TRUE. A great player can predict the enemy on very little information. Simply from things like building positioning, early unit composition, unit amount, player aggression, popular trends, the specific player's trends etc. This combined with the fact that we can limit the opponent's options with our own decisions usually results in great intel. However, i do think that zerg has a weak ability right now to limit the opponent's options. It seemed like Cool knew intotherainbow really well.
Also ITR was very gimmicky and wasted lots of units in harass attempts. The one game that Cool lost, the zerg made the same mistake, doing that huge ling\banedrop instead of smashing the terran's push.
ITR played VERY badly in that series. It was obvious that his nerves were fucking him. But that doesn't diminish Cool's skill.
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On October 03 2010 12:49 MusiK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 21:10 floor exercise wrote:
Know exactly what build your opponent is going to do and counter it before seeing it. Wait what?
User was warned for this post No honestly, I kinda am wondering about this. Don't want to get warned or banned or whatever, but HOW THE HECK did he see all that coming? Almost every scout, every drop, every push, even preemptive counters that he does before knowing what's truly going on (Desert Oasis) that he did just seemed inhuman. I understand good scouting and meta game senses were on his side, but can someone explain to this newb (me) how the heck he did all that without being a psychic or a cheater? Why? Because I wanna be that good. =D
At least some of what ITR did was predictable. I mean you don't have to be a genius to guess that a terran is going to cliff drop on Lost Temple, for example. I think it comes to good scouting and that unquantifiable thing- 'game sense'. You either have it or you don't, but I think confidence plays a big part. ITR seemed to be playing from a script and not reacting to his opponent too well, which to me is a sign of nerves. Cool seemed to be 'in the flow', reacting, reacting, reacting to everything he saw from hi opponent. Flash does exactly the same thing in BW.
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On October 03 2010 12:05 Kishkumen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 06:57 attackfighter wrote:Cool kept up with his creep-pushing, but he didn't over-do it like some players do. I think iDra is guilty of that. He focuses way tooo much on creep and really neglects many other aspects of the game. How can focusing on something that is essentially a free speed upgrade for all of your units be bad? The only way I can see creep spread ever being bad for Zerg is if they spend too much money on queens or lose overlords dropping creep. I assure you, IdrA has enough mechanical skill to spread creep effectively while managing the other aspects of the game. Cool didn't play absolutely perfectly in those games. He played incredibly well, but there's definitely room for improvement, such as his creep spread. The game's only been out for a few months; no one plays anywhere close to perfectly. So don't take everything Cool does as the definitive word on Zerg play. He's the best Zerg in the world, but he's not perfect.
No player will ever be perfect. Of course creep spreading is good but no matter how skilled you are you only have a limited amount of APM/time and if you focus too much on creep it may limit other aspects of your game. I think cool has shown that, if it's possible to win so convincingly without spreading creep so much maybe some of the other top zergs are getting too bogged down in spreading creep and being slower in their base defense, macro etc as a result.
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On October 02 2010 21:27 CoMMoDuS wrote:
nutrition is the key for all sports, even esports. going to surround my computer with every fruit there is.
I signed in just wanting to let you know how this made me spit water.
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1.) A lot of the supposed map imbalance is fictional.
2.) Related to #1, since Hatch first play is safe in 1.1 at certain distances, many more maps become more Zerg friendly than we thought, especially on cross positions.
3.) Related to #1, Zerg isn't as afraid of cliffs as they used to be.
4.) When a Terran's drop-play is completely shut down it is devastating. And its a lot easier to shut down than we thought.
5.) Infestors fill the role of Queens in the mid/late game. In the early game a Queen gives you a minimum defense against very small attacks. In the mid/late game, a single infestor at each base automatically makes 1-ship drops cost ineffective (if not totally ineffective).
6.) #4 + #5 mean the Terran strategy of letting Zerg take the whole map and then just popping Hatches like crazy with dropships is pretty much over.
7.) ULTRALISKS (enjoy them before they are nerfed)
8.) Overlords are so durable that their drops are impossible to stop as Terran. Will be interesting to see how Terran responds to this.
9.) A Zergling/Roach army is low on gas and can hold off Terrans well into the mid game. This gives Zerg a lot of options (mutas, drops, ultra, or just a shitload of banelings).
10.) #9 notwithstanding, making 6-mutas is still very strong. It forces Terran to spend too much and counters dropships before you have a significant number of Infestors.
I don't know if all these will hold but the matchup is going to be fascinating. Can't wait for IEM/MLG this month.
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On October 03 2010 15:04 fantomex wrote:
1.) A lot of the supposed map imbalance is fictional.
2.) Related to #1, since Hatch first play is safe in 1.1 at certain distances, many more maps become more Zerg friendly than we thought, especially on cross positions.
3.) Related to #1, Zerg isn't as afraid of cliffs as they used to be.
4.) When a Terran's drop-play is completely shut down it is devastating. And its a lot easier to shut down than we thought.
5.) Infestors fill the role of Queens in the mid/late game. In the early game a Queen gives you a minimum defense against very small attacks. In the mid/late game, a single infestor at each base automatically makes 1-ship drops cost ineffective (if not totally ineffective).
6.) #4 + #5 mean the Terran strategy of letting Zerg take the whole map and then just popping Hatches like crazy with dropships is pretty much over.
7.) ULTRALISKS (enjoy them before they are nerfed)
8.) Overlords are so durable that their drops are impossible to stop as Terran. Will be interesting to see how Terran responds to this.
9.) A Zergling/Roach army is low on gas and can hold off Terrans well into the mid game. This gives Zerg a lot of options (mutas, drops, ultra, or just a shitload of banelings).
10.) #9 notwithstanding, making 6-mutas is still very strong. It forces Terran to spend too much and counters dropships before you have a significant number of Infestors.
I don't know if all these will hold but the matchup is going to be fascinating. Can't wait for IEM/MLG this month.
Sounds like Terran tears.
User was warned for this post
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United States47024 Posts
On October 02 2010 21:14 evanthebouncy! wrote:
I also get this feeling, correct me if I'm wrong, that you can actually make larvae and combat units at the same time like how they do it in T,P? I mean nothing's constraining us anymore, why not sneak in some drones while making army?
Just as an aside, IIRC the reason you go all drones or all units at any given point is because if you could afford to get a drone while you make army, it would have strictly speaking been better to get it earlier while you were droning.
Example: suppose you get 10 larvae over the period of 1 minute. If you need/want 5 units to defend, it's better to get 5 drones first, then 5 combat units, rather than alternating drone-unit-drone-unit-drone-unit, because that maximizes the total mining time that the drones get, improving your economy while still leaving you with the same 5 units at the end of a minute.
In practice, people don't have perfect game sense, so you're going to overproduce or underproduce drones at various points, but at least this is why I think the ideal situation is to be making either all drones or all combat units at any given point in time.
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On October 03 2010 15:04 fantomex wrote:
1.) A lot of the supposed map imbalance is fictional.
2.) Related to #1, since Hatch first play is safe in 1.1 at certain distances, many more maps become more Zerg friendly than we thought, especially on cross positions.
3.) Related to #1, Zerg isn't as afraid of cliffs as they used to be.
4.) When a Terran's drop-play is completely shut down it is devastating. And its a lot easier to shut down than we thought.
5.) Infestors fill the role of Queens in the mid/late game. In the early game a Queen gives you a minimum defense against very small attacks. In the mid/late game, a single infestor at each base automatically makes 1-ship drops cost ineffective (if not totally ineffective).
6.) #4 + #5 mean the Terran strategy of letting Zerg take the whole map and then just popping Hatches like crazy with dropships is pretty much over.
7.) ULTRALISKS (enjoy them before they are nerfed)
8.) Overlords are so durable that their drops are impossible to stop as Terran. Will be interesting to see how Terran responds to this.
9.) A Zergling/Roach army is low on gas and can hold off Terrans well into the mid game. This gives Zerg a lot of options (mutas, drops, ultra, or just a shitload of banelings).
10.) #9 notwithstanding, making 6-mutas is still very strong. It forces Terran to spend too much and counters dropships before you have a significant number of Infestors.
I don't know if all these will hold but the matchup is going to be fascinating. Can't wait for IEM/MLG this month.
For most of these you have to add the caveat "if you know exactly what the Terran is going to do" Since that is never true unless you are Cool apparently that means most of them aren't true.
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I really feel that hope lot those games rather than cool winning them. I mean i love the zerg play, but after just watching the games, i think his play was over hyped. Yes he played great, but didn't have to deal with so many of terrans exploits. The only gimmick the terran tried was 2 tank drops, which cool did a great job blocking.
When i ZvT, and i was told I wouldn't ever have to deal with hellions harass, a GOOD reaper opening, or banshee play, i could have done what cool did.
Cool, is a beast, there is no denying that, but Hope played so bland it was almost boring to watch.
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On October 03 2010 15:53 zomgtossrush wrote:
I really feel that hope lot those games rather than cool winning them. I mean i love the zerg play, but after just watching the games, i think his play was over hyped. Yes he played great, but didn't have to deal with so many of terrans exploits. The only gimmick the terran tried was 2 tank drops, which cool did a great job blocking.
C'mon man! Rainbow did two tank drops and Fruit stopped them with lots of class. Look at that game on kulas for example. Even the commentators were so pumped to see how the tank drop would succeed, it almost seemed that cool would be behind by loosing an expo and out of nowhere a nydus appears in rainbow's base and catches him totally off guard. That has to be an example of cool "winning" the game.
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Yeah, the way Cool countered tank drops was amazing precisely because its not something that leaves him otherwise exposed. 1-2 Sunkens and a correctly positioned overlord. It was practically reactionary. Had HopeTorture gone something else its not like Cool would have lost because he bet everything on tank drops.
People are reading too much into Cool's amazing read on Desert Oasis. The rest of his decisions are easy to understand.
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I think a key fact that not many noticed was how ITR didn't really apply the patented early terren aggression that has become a staple play in tvz. No great early reaper/hellion/banshee harass ment FD got to have an easier transition into the mid/late game where zerg and FD excel at tremendously. FD got to basically choose how he wanted to open and didn't really get heavily deterred early from his gameplan and made ITR pay for it every time.
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On October 03 2010 13:38 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 12:05 Kishkumen wrote:On October 03 2010 06:57 attackfighter wrote:Cool kept up with his creep-pushing, but he didn't over-do it like some players do. I think iDra is guilty of that. He focuses way tooo much on creep and really neglects many other aspects of the game. How can focusing on something that is essentially a free speed upgrade for all of your units be bad? The only way I can see creep spread ever being bad for Zerg is if they spend too much money on queens or lose overlords dropping creep. I assure you, IdrA has enough mechanical skill to spread creep effectively while managing the other aspects of the game. Cool didn't play absolutely perfectly in those games. He played incredibly well, but there's definitely room for improvement, such as his creep spread. The game's only been out for a few months; no one plays anywhere close to perfectly. So don't take everything Cool does as the definitive word on Zerg play. He's the best Zerg in the world, but he's not perfect. No player will ever be perfect. Of course creep spreading is good but no matter how skilled you are you only have a limited amount of APM/time and if you focus too much on creep it may limit other aspects of your game. I think cool has shown that, if it's possible to win so convincingly without spreading creep so much maybe some of the other top zergs are getting too bogged down in spreading creep and being slower in their base defense, macro etc as a result.
I'm no pro player so I can't speak to the reality of this, but it seems like creep spread shouldn't be an incredible amount of APM/multitask commitment, comparatively speaking. I mean, we're talking about ex-Brood War pros here, who didn't have automine, unlimited control groups, or MBS and still managed to defend their base and all that. I think if you asked IdrA, he would say that creep spread is never a waste of time/APM at the pro level. I have literally never heard a top Zerg player say that you should spend less time spreading creep. The only thing I've ever heard is criticism for not spending enough time spreading the creep.
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I think creep spreading isn't that hard. I can do it convincingly and I'm by no means a good zerg player.
But Idra does spread his creeps very, very deligently, you can see that in an idra game his creep is far more coverage than the other zergs.
The problem isn't "oh idra spent too much time spreading creeps therefore he lacks in other aspects"
It's more like cool is just so much better at the other aspects.
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The jury is still out on creep.
It should be obvious to everyone that spreading creep at the expense of catching drops is a bad idea. But I'm not convinced by GSL1 that its an either/or proposition for these players.
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Baneling drops are pretty scary.
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I think it's important to note that while the only game he did lose, he went hydras, I think if he added upgraded roaches into his army in that game along with the hydras he would have stomped that tank/marine/thor push.
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Pretty sure cool himself said he didnt know what he was doing differently from other zergs and couldnt point it out......
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Infesters are KEY to shutting down medivac drops, drop comes in, fungal growth, drop never leaves.
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On October 03 2010 15:58 Sultan.P wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 15:53 zomgtossrush wrote:
I really feel that hope lot those games rather than cool winning them. I mean i love the zerg play, but after just watching the games, i think his play was over hyped. Yes he played great, but didn't have to deal with so many of terrans exploits. The only gimmick the terran tried was 2 tank drops, which cool did a great job blocking.
C'mon man! Rainbow did two tank drops and Fruit stopped them with lots of class. Look at that game on kulas for example. Even the commentators were so pumped to see how the tank drop would succeed, it almost seemed that cool would be behind by loosing an expo and out of nowhere a nydus appears in rainbow's base and catches him totally off guard. That has to be an example of cool "winning" the game.
Oh of course, the way he handled both drops on LT and kulas was great. But that could have been solved through practice. He knew tank drops were strong on LT, so he has 2 spines ready to go. On kulas, once he decided to take that gold, i am sure he had an anti-tank drop strat practiced.
But the t played so bland and boring everygame, i can't hero-worship the fruitman like most of tl. Cools late game was spectaculer, but it was almost like watching a FMP considering how untouched he went. The terran did absolutly nothing impressive the entire series. He never pressured cool, ever. He just seige mode'd his way to 3 base, while trying fail attempts at drop harrasing, 15 minutes into the game.
Did cool, deserve to win the GSL? Sure. Did he do so impressively? Not to me. Did he have flashes of brilliance? Definitely. Did he have to face the arsenal of terran openings? Not even close.
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People say he didnt face teh arsenal of terran openings. He did.. The only thing was that he successfully defended all of them. Early barracks .. .etc. Like for example when he went against next live forever he lost his hatch to bunker reapers. but still came out on top even after bancheese. PRO
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On October 03 2010 16:27 Kishkumen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 13:38 tomatriedes wrote:On October 03 2010 12:05 Kishkumen wrote:On October 03 2010 06:57 attackfighter wrote:Cool kept up with his creep-pushing, but he didn't over-do it like some players do. I think iDra is guilty of that. He focuses way tooo much on creep and really neglects many other aspects of the game. How can focusing on something that is essentially a free speed upgrade for all of your units be bad? The only way I can see creep spread ever being bad for Zerg is if they spend too much money on queens or lose overlords dropping creep. I assure you, IdrA has enough mechanical skill to spread creep effectively while managing the other aspects of the game. Cool didn't play absolutely perfectly in those games. He played incredibly well, but there's definitely room for improvement, such as his creep spread. The game's only been out for a few months; no one plays anywhere close to perfectly. So don't take everything Cool does as the definitive word on Zerg play. He's the best Zerg in the world, but he's not perfect. No player will ever be perfect. Of course creep spreading is good but no matter how skilled you are you only have a limited amount of APM/time and if you focus too much on creep it may limit other aspects of your game. I think cool has shown that, if it's possible to win so convincingly without spreading creep so much maybe some of the other top zergs are getting too bogged down in spreading creep and being slower in their base defense, macro etc as a result. I'm no pro player so I can't speak to the reality of this, but it seems like creep spread shouldn't be an incredible amount of APM/multitask commitment, comparatively speaking. I mean, we're talking about ex-Brood War pros here, who didn't have automine, unlimited control groups, or MBS and still managed to defend their base and all that. I think if you asked IdrA, he would say that creep spread is never a waste of time/APM at the pro level. I have literally never heard a top Zerg player say that you should spend less time spreading creep. The only thing I've ever heard is criticism for not spending enough time spreading the creep.
idra sometimes misses production cycles and his overlord placement/scouting in general is subpar. he also rarely ever puts on any pressure, so his attention is entirely devoted to macro yet he still makes mistakes. also I've never said a top zerg mention spreading creep at all, but I'm sure they'd tell you to do it when you can, but not to focus too much energy on it thinking it'll auto-win the game or something.
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on an unrelated note, today on ladder I encountered like 5 zergs and only 2 terrans. looks like a bunch of people are hopping on the zerg bandwagon now that Cool's won, lol
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I switched over to Zerg from Protoss because of Fruitseller. :D
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Terran player here ^_^ so my own insights into zerg aren't great, but I felt like I learned a lot of things about zerg and wanted to list them.
1) preparing for harass -- I know there are a lot of people who complain that Terran has too many early options, especially regarding harass, but as a Terran player I feel that there are only a few "viable" harasses per map/race match-up. An ineffective harass is a serious blow to the harasser. Watching Fruit Dealer, he seemed to have all the obvious harass options at his fingertips, and all it took was minimal scouting to tell him which his opponent was going. A lot of people have called him "psychic," but it's just good game sense. It's important to prepare for harass and practice for it. Something as simple (and clever) as roaches at the back of the high ground will turn the game in your favor.
2) zerg mobility -- Fruit Dealer really knows how to abuse mobility, something I have seen few other top zergs do, even tho mobility is one of the race's major advantages. Several parts to this:
First, it allows zerg to expand like crazy. If you have slings and mutas out, bouncing back and forth between bases is no problem. Another advantage for zerg here is that hatcheries double as army production, so when you have a new hatch up you automatically have the production building to reinforce it (with any unit you want). The other races don't have this. It felt so right to see Fruit Dealer mass expanding, and I never felt that his expos were in too much danger at all.
Second, when there is a large Terran army in the center of the map, attack where the army isn't. Fruit Dealer did this time and again and it was so refreshing. Tanks, Thors, rines are closing in on his base -- he throws up a nydus or does a drop in his opponents main and that massive army has to stagger back home (but can't get there before half of it is gone). It's so painful to watch other zerg's who suicide their forces against an incoming army. We've figured out by now that a maxed T or P army is stronger than a maxed Z army, so head on engagements is always a mistake. But zerg has the mobility to get better positioning or to attack the weak points on the map. Fruit Dealer understood this, and it was (again) refreshing to see. My fave moment was in the semis when bio-mech was breaking through the rocks on Scrap Station. FD swung some slings around to do a double-sided attack/contain, then dropped banes on the ambushed army.
That's all from me. FD played excellently and I hope some of his creative solutions become standard. ^_^ I had a lot of fun watching him. I finally felt like I was seeing true zerg power. I also have to admit I felt bad for his terran opponents. I know how powerless you can feel in those situations (TvZ is actually my worst match-up D: ). Looking forward to seeing more of Fruit Dealer in the future.
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I learned 2 things from fruit dealers play
1: only make what you need to defend early harras...
and produce as many drones as you can while teching as fast as you can...(Ovie drops and bling speed all count to victory..get them all...fast..drones are cheap
2: make diverse unit compositions....don't over commit to muta production etc...make just what you need to stop a harass..and continue to diversify...lings/roaches/infestors/mutas/bling/ultras
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I think he was the player I ever saw losing as many hatcheries and being harassed mid/late game and from each hatchery itr destroyed he would make 2 anew and instant rebuild drones, I think he did take the Z race to the metagame it should be playing ....
And I like when he himself said ZvT is easy and he is struggling with ZvP =d
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On October 03 2010 21:43 noD wrote:
And I like when he himself said ZvT is easy and he is struggling with ZvP =d
That depends largely on the player tho, TheStC wasn't there, which is pretty much the best terran in all of Korea.
9/30-10/1
Players/Matches of note:
oGsTheStC(T) shows us why he is so good, playing 13 games and winning all of them, leaving him on a unbroken 13 win streak, and 2 of those games were against none other than FruitSeller(Z) the GSL S1 Finalist, those matches are labeled: oGsTheStC(T) vs ????????(Z) [MAP NAME].
From gisado's Koth event. For those that aren't familiar with it, its a king of the hill event which features all the best players in Korea and it's even been said that getting the grand prize in it (25 win streak) is harder than winning the gsl.
Also;
Record of successive wins
- First : oGsTheStC(T) 22successive wins.
:p
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Overlord drops was pretty awesome.
Like rest of he's game :b
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I think his overlord drops often hurt him more than helped, particularly in the game 4 that he lost. He lost a lot of overlords to turrets, some with units still in them. After losing the ovies, he was unable to retreat in time to defend his base and was badly supply blocked. If he went nydus in game 4, I think he would have won easily. After the last patch, I find that just running in against tanks works fine.
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I don't think FS did anything super amazingly outlandishly new, but he defended extremely well and had an almost-impeccable sense of timing. Intercepting the Medivacs as he did so well was crucial to his overwhelming map control dominance. I think those who criticize ITR for his lack of early harass are perhaps forgetting ITR's horror drop attempts in the first three games that all ended badly for him. I mean, you really can't get better drop maps than Delta Quadrant, Lost Temple, and Kulas Ravine but I don't remember a single effective drop on those maps, which probably meant he was loathe to risk more Medivacs and units in the last two games.
I'm not trying to take away from FS' victory; I think he completely outplayed ITR in his four wins and about 80% of the time of his loss and thus well-deserved his win. But I don't think there's a huge amount of "new" info from his win, though you might argue that certain strategies that were less known by those who don't watch a ton of commentaries and replays will see a much greater propagation now because of the prominence of his win. He executed fundamentals of Zerg play exceptionally well and prepared extremely well for the ZvT matchup.
On a side note, as a Zerg player I've always found ZvT to be an easier MU than ZvP. I'm by no means an awesome player or anything, and maybe it's just because I've played more ZvT than anything else, but when playing ZvT I feel that if I scout well and play well I have a decent shot. In ZvP I sometimes feel a bit helpless in the face of strong pushes and the fact that Protoss T3 is so very strong against your ground army.
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Make extra queens and don't just make a creep highway, make a creep parking lot!
Infestation pit first is the most flexible lair build.
Nydus worm >>> baneling bust.
Edit:
Also, carpet bombing with overlords while armies are engaged makes you a winner.
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He can improve his burrowed baneling fields by spreading them more. Against marines there is no need for more than 2 banes in one spot. If he wants to be sure there is always enough banes to kill marines with a single blast then he should burrow something else in front or around them.
I don't think he will experience many people specifically targeting banes.
If he will start placing them everywhere and not just in spots that terran will obviously scan then he can single handedly change standard terran build orders, making them go for faster Starport and Ravens instead of anything else that is gas heavy, like Thors.
Or make Terrans going for faster Thors leave their base significantly later.
Burrow can be researched simultaneously with morphing Spire and be done once first mutas are out so I really don't think it can only be available only when it's too late.
And about that
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/0OkRd.png)
What has happened to Lalush demanding more micro?
On April 27 2010 08:32 LaLuSh wrote:
It disgusts me that every time I see someone on these forums bash down on a flaw in the game, all he’s ever met with is the same generic response: “Yes but Starcraft II is a different game, ’other’ types of micro/whatever might show up in the future as it develops and evolves”.
Who knows, those arguments might hold true, although I personally doubt they will. We’re entirely missing the point arguing in such a way though. Why in the first place should we be accepting that Starcraft II is regressing in to a more primitive form than its predecessor? Isn’t this, after all, the sequel, as opposed to the prequel?
How does Dustin Browder explain the fact that air units in SC2, the sequel, suddenly regressed and lost their ability to maneuver while firing? Is there perhaps a disturbance in the Khala?
Start demanding more out of Blizzard! I implore you all not to settle for less than you deserve. Let’s at least demand that Blizzard put the micro back in a game that was already robbed of its macro!
In the game where that screenshot was taken he did the same thing wrong - he burrowed too many banes in too obvious spots.
And I am disappointed that after so many months, "takes a korean to play proper zvt" is what he has to say instead of simply showing off his supposed skill in a way available since the beginning of beta!
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I learned that crying on the forums about how weak your race is will actually improve your win-% and make you a better gamer 
just kidding obviously, what I mean is, believing that your race is weak can bring you to train SO hard that you not only overcome any (real or imagined) weakness but become a way better player than if you'd just stick with standard-strats you know will win you the game 60-70% of the time
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Baneling drops are evidently a better air supplement to a ling ground army when facing mech than mutas are--its fucking crazy how badly they mess up a Tank line, and with the speed upgrade if you spread them out Thors won't bring down more than a couple before your Overlords are over them dropping banelings.
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I really enjoyed the first game of the finals when Fruit kept an infestor at his expos and had units ready to come in in response to harass. I think he kept his lings in the middle and the 8 second fungal growth gave him enough time to send his lings over and clean up the dropship. First time I've seen some defense from a zerg lol, I like it.
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One really important thing from Fruitdealer's play is the way he makes a spire and 5-6 mutas, after pit I believe.
It seems pointless as they often do little or no damage, but it actually has a profound effect. It's very very difficult, if not impossible, to beat compositions using tanks, hellions, and/or marauders effectively. Later on you can baneling drop, but in that middle portion of the game it's not as practical because you'll be pressed to have enough ground forces AND enough banelings. Plus a marauder heavy army wouldn't be affected significantly by baneling drops if microed well. By making a spire and a few mutas Fruit forces his opponent to make units that shoot up. Otherwise he can just continue to make mutas and win the game.
I've definitely fallen in that trap before when opening with infestor pit. I'll win the first few battles/harass with infestors, but eventually he can just focus so much on core ground to ground units that your ground army just loses out. By forcing him to have even a bit of marines or thors you really soften him up.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4489/proudqueen.jpg)
