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Ultralisk bug/issue with patch 1.1.1 - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Captain Peabody
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3110 Posts
September 28 2010 15:29 GMT
#81
Yeah, this is a HUGE nerf, and the fact that it gets sold as a bug fix is rather sad. Seriously, this is not at all what Zerg (or any other race for that matter) needs at the moment.
Dies Irae venit. youtube.com/SnobbinsFilms
frucisky
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore2170 Posts
September 28 2010 15:30 GMT
#82
On September 29 2010 00:27 Snowfield wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 29 2010 00:25 Assirra wrote:
On September 29 2010 00:18 SwampZero wrote:
On September 29 2010 00:04 SwampZero wrote:
Fun fact, the thor has a larger normalized [Surface X Damage] AOE than the Ultralisk right now.

Ultra is radius 2 at 180* for a total surface area of ~25 with 33% damage, so that ends up being 8.25.

Thor is radius 1 at 360* for a total of ~12 with 100% damage, so that ends up being 12. Plus it's AA so the damage ceiling is infinite. plus its ranged.


TL;DR Thor has a more potent AOE attack than the Ultralisk


Quoting again so it sinks in.

Thor has a better AOE attack than the Ultralisk.

It also has a better everything than the Ultralisk....




12ultra's can get killed by 1banshee lol (no, i am not saying it WILL happen, i am saying it CAN happen)


No it can't happen.

I don't see how Ultralisk splash damage is now logical and intuitive is a bug/issue.


Let's not argue semantics whether its a bug. But its a major issue because it made the ultra too cost inefficient to be used against terran.

But haven't played enough so maybe all the claims here may be a bit exaggerated. The point though is that its no time to nerf Zerg.
<3 DongRaeGu <3
Zerksys
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States569 Posts
September 28 2010 15:30 GMT
#83
On September 29 2010 00:27 xs101 wrote:
To turn this discussion into something usefull, I suggest everyone who thinks the issue is real to post it on the Blizzard Technical Support forums. For eu the link is http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/11815/. Let's make it count !


Make a thread and I'll post
What's that probe doing there? It's a scout. You mean one of those flying planes? No....
hdkhang
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia183 Posts
September 28 2010 15:30 GMT
#84
On September 29 2010 00:19 dvide wrote:
Show nested quote +
Picture evidence here:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

My own short test concludes that I am able to hit a few more marines than on his picture (but still less than 1.1 I think) but it does indeed seem that siege tanks are affected similarly to thors. Siege tanks only seem smaller but the selection circle size is actually the same.

I'm confused why this is also a nerf vs smaller units like marines and zerglings. I would have thought that since the units' radii are so small, the new constant splash size would end up being larger vs them. Was there a minimum size on the old splash radius?


All units have a unit radius > 0. Therefore when you add 2 to that non zero value, the radius is larger than just flat out radius 2.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
September 28 2010 15:30 GMT
#85
On September 29 2010 00:14 HiHiByeBye wrote:
hmmm if you watch GSL game 3 cool vs top

Top had about 10-11 thors? and it died to about 7 ultras and cool only lost maybe 1 ultra?

and that is balanced? terran had no counter to ultras from the ground. Now they are more on even grounds.

Zerglings are so cost effective vs thors. Now zerg is forced to have a unit mix instead of just winning by massing ultras and zergs are crying about this?



You are way off.

Top had 15 2-2 thors bunched up into a ball

Cool decides to distract the ball with a lot of lings, banelings, and roaches, THEN throws 10 ultras (1-4) at the Thors. Top completely ignores the ultras until his thors are at pretty much half life, when all the ling, banelings, and roaches are dead. The 14 or so remaining thors (1 died to baneling and lings i believe) proceed to wtfpwn 3 ultras in an instant. However because they were so low on life already, the remaining 7 ultras kill them, losing one more ultra in the process.
Yargh
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
September 28 2010 15:31 GMT
#86
On September 29 2010 00:27 Snowfield wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 29 2010 00:25 Assirra wrote:
On September 29 2010 00:18 SwampZero wrote:
On September 29 2010 00:04 SwampZero wrote:
Fun fact, the thor has a larger normalized [Surface X Damage] AOE than the Ultralisk right now.

Ultra is radius 2 at 180* for a total surface area of ~25 with 33% damage, so that ends up being 8.25.

Thor is radius 1 at 360* for a total of ~12 with 100% damage, so that ends up being 12. Plus it's AA so the damage ceiling is infinite. plus its ranged.


TL;DR Thor has a more potent AOE attack than the Ultralisk


Quoting again so it sinks in.

Thor has a better AOE attack than the Ultralisk.

It also has a better everything than the Ultralisk....




12ultra's can get killed by 1banshee lol (no, i am not saying it WILL happen, i am saying it CAN happen)


No it can't happen.

I don't see how Ultralisk splash damage is now logical and intuitive is a bug/issue.

Just to make sure, you are talking about logic in a game where there a gigantic spacebugs, aliens that look like robots and humans soar through the universe?
Its not about logic here, its about the fact that they were like this from the beta, why change it now when zerg already is in a dire state?
I am all for balance but can they fix problems first before making new ones.
KiaL.Kiwi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany210 Posts
September 28 2010 15:32 GMT
#87
That's very very very sad news - I noticed in my games against T today that the Ultras seemed to be significantly weaker against Thors, but I said to myself it was because of my semi-optimal positioning.

That's a real bummer - pre-patch getting Ultras out was the only possible way to fight Mass Thors at all since all others Units just evaporate or are easily countered by other very cheap Terran Units (Lings -> Hellions, Broodlords -> Vikings). The Splash against buildings was ridicoulus and needed to be fixed, but that's an extremly high cost we pay... I don't see any Z unit combination that's able to counter Mass Thor / Hellion any longer if they keep the changes to the AoE against units.
Damaskinos
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany139 Posts
September 28 2010 15:32 GMT
#88
Thanks to the efforts of Carnac and Raketti, we got pretty much of an picture, of what happened to Ultralisks in the 2 last patches.
It's beyond doubt, that the so called "bug", of attacking a building with an Ultralisk and seeing 20 SCVs in the whole perimeter of the building dying, should be addressed in some way.
It's now claimed, that Ultralisks are rended useless, and somehow I remember those claims were also there directly after the patch 1.1. based on the reduced damage. OK, it's obvious from the pictures taken by Raketti that with the 1.1.1 the splash got reduced also in it's radius. Opposite to Thors Ultras are really fast moving units. They also do splash. Maybe after the change in the way the splash is geting applied, there should be an increase to damage done (to prepatch-1.1-level) or the radius should be slightly increased (by .5 or 1, maybe wiht an lower damage coefficient, so Ultras will have, like siege tanks, 3 coefficients). Those are ideas, those are things one can talk about...

...but. Despite the warning of the OP, the fellow posters continue to QQ instead of contributing. Really folks, I don't get it! Is it so difficult to you to be productive? I mean, look at the Koreans. The moment I write these lines, there are 6 Zerg in the TOP 10 of the Korean ladder. If one looks at the US and EU ladders... Zero... (Zerg=Zero-"o"+"g" ). /irony One can ask himself: can it be, that Zerg is simply to complicated for people living in cultures, that consider fast food being appropriate nutrition? /irony. Please, use your heads. Bring your skill in playing your beloved race to the maximum, spot the weknesses, call them by their name, contribute to the forums, be creative with your ideas, but always respecting the players of the other races, and maybe then we could look forward to a better game. It's a pitty, you have to do partialy the job of the game designers, but hey, we are a community and they are also just human...

Have fun discussing
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matthew 7:6
JustPlay
Profile Joined September 2010
United States211 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-28 15:34:53
September 28 2010 15:32 GMT
#89
Ultralisks needed to be nerfed eventually but I don't see how nerfing them and then buffing nothing is anything other than an attack on the remaining zerg players. I quit zerg a while ago beacuse the race is complete garbage in SC2. They are the race I will play eventually, but I don't see how anyone can play them right now when T and P are so much more fun.
On September 29 2010 00:27 Zerksys wrote:
What counters thor hellion now other than brood lords which get 1 shot by 5 vikings.
Mutalisks until he makes 5 vikings or remembers what marines/turrets are.
Ndugu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1078 Posts
September 28 2010 15:33 GMT
#90
Does this have any effect on Ultralisk's ability to deal with Stalker/Collosi?
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
September 28 2010 15:33 GMT
#91
On September 29 2010 00:27 frucisky wrote:
Has anyone tested this btw... If you A move a bunch of ultras into a repaired PF, do the ultras manage to attack the PF over the line of SCVs?


Yes if there is only 1 line then yes.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
theSAiNT
Profile Joined July 2009
United States726 Posts
September 28 2010 15:34 GMT
#92
On September 29 2010 00:33 Ndugu wrote:
Does this have any effect on Ultralisk's ability to deal with Stalker/Collosi?


Yeah, haven't got access to SC2 from here but could someone test it out and post screenshots?
Acritter
Profile Joined August 2010
Syria7637 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-28 15:37:28
September 28 2010 15:36 GMT
#93
So, um... how do you deal with Thors as Zerg now? Massed Magic Box Mutas? Those will lose cost for cost. Zerglings? Blue Flame Hellions deal with that. Hydras? Same thing, plus tanks. Roaches? They would work, you just need a lot of them. Brood Lords seem like the only real solution, and as we all know, they get trashed by Vikings, which can go Ovie hunting after. Is the only answer to just have such a huge army that there's no way Terran can win? Is there something I'm missing?

EDIT: Ultras should be much weaker against Stalkers+Colossi as well, because their splash radius got nerfed. That's all there is to it. Don't know if it's broken, though, and not going to make the judgment.
dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria
Glacius0
Profile Joined July 2010
Netherlands66 Posts
September 28 2010 15:36 GMT
#94
Glad to see my thread back. It was the first thread I ever made (been mostly lurking since start of sc2 beta though) so it has sentimental value (ok maybe not ).

I've been thinking why the splash change affects small units so much.
1. The radius of the circle is no longer extended by the size of the unit (obvious)
2. The circle starts from the front of the ultralisk, which in turn
a. puts the ultralisk deeper inside his own splash circle, leaving less surface area
b. puts the splash circle more around the ultralisk, instead of in front, where your enemy usually is.
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
September 28 2010 15:38 GMT
#95
On September 29 2010 00:33 Ndugu wrote:
Does this have any effect on Ultralisk's ability to deal with Stalker/Collosi?

Good point, I can't see Ultra being anything but horrible vs Stalker now
Grond
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
599 Posts
September 28 2010 15:39 GMT
#96
On September 29 2010 00:14 HiHiByeBye wrote:
hmmm if you watch GSL game 3 cool vs top

Top had about 10-11 thors? and it died to about 7 ultras and cool only lost maybe 1 ultra?

and that is balanced? terran had no counter to ultras from the ground. Now they are more on even grounds.

Zerglings are so cost effective vs thors. Now zerg is forced to have a unit mix instead of just winning by massing ultras and zergs are crying about this?


Equal resources of Marauders slaughter Ultras.

This appears to be a triple nerf of Ultras. Blizzard nerfed damage in 1.1. The splash in 1.1 was 2 + r but I believe it extended from the edge of the target so it was in effect 2 + r + r. They nerfed both the range and where the attack originates.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
September 28 2010 15:39 GMT
#97
On September 29 2010 00:36 Glacius0 wrote:
Glad to see my thread back. It was the first thread I ever made (been mostly lurking since start of sc2 beta though) so it has sentimental value (ok maybe not ).

I've been thinking why the splash change affects small units so much.
1. The radius of the circle is no longer extended by the size of the unit (obvious)
2. The circle starts from the front of the ultralisk, which in turn
a. puts the ultralisk deeper inside his own splash circle, leaving less surface area
b. puts the splash circle more around the ultralisk, instead of in front, where your enemy usually is.



So #2 means - great! Ultras are awesome against zerglings and zealots!

....lol.....
Yargh
MinoMino
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway1103 Posts
September 28 2010 15:39 GMT
#98
Man, I don't know what to say. I guess there's nothing else to do than just hope they do something about it. Has this made it to the bnet forums yet?
Blah.
NATO
Profile Joined April 2010
United States459 Posts
September 28 2010 15:39 GMT
#99
OMG, making ultras not OP, what is Blizz thinking?! Obviously they should do splash damage to every enemy unit on the map, I mean it's only fair because zerg can make a ton of drones whenever they want and thinking about that makes my brain hurt.

User was warned for this post
dvide
Profile Joined March 2010
United Kingdom287 Posts
September 28 2010 15:41 GMT
#100
On September 29 2010 00:30 hdkhang wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 29 2010 00:19 dvide wrote:
Picture evidence here:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

My own short test concludes that I am able to hit a few more marines than on his picture (but still less than 1.1 I think) but it does indeed seem that siege tanks are affected similarly to thors. Siege tanks only seem smaller but the selection circle size is actually the same.

I'm confused why this is also a nerf vs smaller units like marines and zerglings. I would have thought that since the units' radii are so small, the new constant splash size would end up being larger vs them. Was there a minimum size on the old splash radius?


All units have a unit radius > 0. Therefore when you add 2 to that non zero value, the radius is larger than just flat out radius 2.

Oh wait, is that how it worked? I guess I thought it was a multiple of the targeted unit radius, not just an addition. So it used to be the targeted unit radius +2 extra radius, and now it's just a flat 2 radius regardless? That would explain it, thanks.
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