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On September 29 2010 00:48 HiHiByeBye wrote:
tanks are rendered almost useless against baneling but terran players arent whining lol. Seriously.
It is not easy to micro bio vs banelings....
Also did you guys not watch banelings just rolling in and kill command centers? so if the zerg player is ahead they can kill expos so easy....
Now ultras are actually counterble as terran (marauder are good against pure ultras but fungal growth/ling/ultra rape them....)
I also dont see terran players complaining about magic box mutas. Mutas are so cost effective against just pure thors.
1) Tanks are not rendered useless against baneling. Hell, tanks are one of the best units against banelings. Right up there with marauder.
2) You need 19 banelings to kill a command center, assuming you didn't get an attack upgrade. That is 19 zerglings (25*19 = 475) plus the cost of turning into banelings (25*19 for mins and gas) for a total of 950mins/475gas. And the planetary fortress can kill banelings.
3) Ultras were counterable before. If it takes ultras AND infestors to take on a proper MM army, then you have some balance issues there, buddy.
4) Mutas do not work against thors in equal cost, magic box or not. I don't know where you are getting this info.
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On September 29 2010 00:21 kerminator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:14 HiHiByeBye wrote:
hmmm if you watch GSL game 3 cool vs top
Top had about 10-11 thors? and it died to about 7 ultras and cool only lost maybe 1 ultra?
and that is balanced? terran had no counter to ultras from the ground. Now they are more on even grounds.
Zerglings are so cost effective vs thors. Now zerg is forced to have a unit mix instead of just winning by massing ultras and zergs are crying about this? Stimmed marauders rape ultras And you cant counter thors with zerglings since terran can always add some hellions
This type of logic is flawed. If he has mostly thors and no hellions. You DO want to use zerglings, as zerglings destroy thors hard. If and when he starts adding hellions is when you start considering less zerglings, pre emptively avoiding unit "A" when unit "A" would be effective because unit "B" may be there is a bad idea.
eg: "I can't use banshees against zerg because he might have some hydralisks". I'm sure you would agree that this kind of logic is flawed.
I figured the ultra splash on buildings was a bug. In my mind, ultras are the counter to tanks, not really thors. If the opponent starts using ultras en masse, I get thors with 250mm cannon, if I'm a mech focused player.
Also, some players have been saying broodlords + corrupters are the superior zerg endgame vs mech, they are close. Its broodlords + mutalisks. Mutalisks are very effective vs vikings, more so than corrupters. Hydralisks are good to have too.
Mutas do not work against thors in equal cost, magic box or not. I don't know where you are getting this info.
In equal cost perhaps not, but a thor without marine support dies very quickly to mutalisks. Massing mutalisks and then getting like 10 banelings for when he pushes out is hyper effective.
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On September 29 2010 00:54 HiHiByeBye wrote:
please remember that zerg can expand easier b4 terran hit critical mass of thors.... and you should compare build times too....
Not only is this off topic. It's also total nonsense.
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On September 29 2010 00:48 HiHiByeBye wrote:
tanks are rendered almost useless against baneling but terran players arent whining lol. Seriously.
It is not easy to micro bio vs banelings....
Also did you guys not watch banelings just rolling in and kill command centers? so if the zerg player is ahead they can kill expos so easy....
Now ultras are actually counterble as terran (marauder are good against pure ultras but fungal growth/ling/ultra rape them....)
I also dont see terran players complaining about magic box mutas. Mutas are so cost effective against just pure thors.
Baneling have 30 HP. Tank nerf had no effect on Banelings.
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I'd like to see what Cool thinks after this 'fix'
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On September 29 2010 00:50 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:43 Zerksys wrote:
Which totally explains why there is only 1 zerg left in the gsl. There is one zerg left because he has been the only zerg good enough to win in his match on the day. It REALLY bugs me when people belittle player skill by talking about imbalance. I'm not denying a possibility of imbalance but you can't just take a "stat" and make a conclusion without looking at each individual game. That's just terrible logic. This topic is about Ultras splash. Let's keep it there.
Fair enough but lots of 'stats' add up. Top 200 lists for all 3 regions? TL Open #1, 2 TvT semifinals? Those were just the top of my head. The General forum is basically a list of 'stats' which goes on and on.
You can cover your ears and shake your head about conclusions drawn from one 'stat' but the weight of evidence is against you.
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On September 29 2010 00:48 HiHiByeBye wrote:
tanks are rendered almost useless against baneling but terran players arent whining lol. Seriously.
It is not easy to micro bio vs banelings....
Also did you guys not watch banelings just rolling in and kill command centers? so if the zerg player is ahead they can kill expos so easy....
Now ultras are actually counterble as terran (marauder are good against pure ultras but fungal growth/ling/ultra rape them....)
I also dont see terran players complaining about magic box mutas. Mutas are so cost effective against just pure thors.
No they arnt whining about those because they arnt issues.
Im sorry to blow your balloon, but terran did complain a lot when zerg discovered just last patch that ultras could wipe out an entire PF repairing platoon of scv...
The patch fixing it came one week later... giving a huge (unintended?) blow to the ultralisk splash dmg to other units.
Mind you how the priority system bugs out the attacking melee units AI so much that it takes a huge zerg army/ ridiculous apm(manualy target every single scv) simply to take on said PF ? Something buggish for which zergs lobbyed for a while w/o even an aknowledgement of the issue as of now.
Can't we zerg now try to bring the new ultralisk issue to the devs. ?
PS: Im sorry but if I can toss banelings into your command centers unpunished, you deserve to loose imo.
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On September 29 2010 00:43 theSAiNT wrote:Well, seems like the first blue post addressing this issue suggest that it is 'working as intended'. Show nested quote +As long as no official statement is published by us, I can only say that we should refer to the Ultralisk behaviour as game mechanics, not as a bug.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/656096468Maybe they didn't want to include a nerf to the weakest race so they snuck it in as a 'bugfix'.
There's no conspiracy here. This was a bugfix patch and not a balance patch, and they did fix the bug as was their intention to do so. The fact that the bug also had some balance implications is not something they are going to consider too heavily during the bugfix patch, but they are probably going to examine it in more detail for future balance patches and possibly adjust the new radius accordingly. This sort of bureaucracy is not necessarily brilliant for us, but I don't imagine it was indented as a sneaky malicious way to nerf the zerg.
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Oh and just FYI, zerglings do not rape thors. Yeah, if you let them surround one, but if they get the mass of thors in a ball, zerglings do jack shit to them. Especially if there's an scv or ten in there on autorepair. Thors shoot pretty fast, and one-hit zerglings.
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I just tested ultras in the unit tester several times, and it actually seems extremely similar to how it was pre-1.1 vs thors. Im thinking we may be overreacting a bit.
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On September 29 2010 00:58 dvide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:43 theSAiNT wrote:Well, seems like the first blue post addressing this issue suggest that it is 'working as intended'. As long as no official statement is published by us, I can only say that we should refer to the Ultralisk behaviour as game mechanics, not as a bug.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/656096468Maybe they didn't want to include a nerf to the weakest race so they snuck it in as a 'bugfix'. There's no conspiracy here. This was a bugfix patch and not a balance patch, and they did fix the bug as was their intention to do so. The fact that the bug also had some balance implications is not something they are going to consider too heavily during the bugfix patch, but they are probably going to examine it in more detail for future balance patches and possibly adjust the new radius accordingly. This sort of bureaucracy is not necessarily brilliant for us, but I don't imagine it was indented as a sneaky malicious way to nerf the zerg.
I agree - they probably looked at it as the easiest way to fix the bug. Instead of having two different splash effects on one unit attack, replace the "broken" one with the fixed one.
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I actually like the patch. I'm not talking about balance issues tho. Maybe ultras need more dmg or smth so they are usefull and used again. To be honest I don't know how strong ultras were and how bad they are now, so I won't give any opinions about that, BUT I do like the patch because of aesthetic reasons. It just looked ridicolous stupid units dying from ultras who weren't even close by. That was the case when the fought of thors and even more against buildings. They actually should have a splash based on the claws and the this comes pretty close.
So yea, the patch was needed so it doesn't look awful, it may need another patch to balance it out.
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On September 28 2010 23:54 rastaban wrote:
Phoenix are bugged as well, I think both of these are probably unintentional and will be hot fixed again as well. It just is sad that this is happening in the middle of the GSL when so much is on the line, but somethings can't be helped. Hope they get these things fixed soon though.
A patch is not a hot fix. Things in SC cannot be hot fixed, they must be patched. A hot fix is a change which is enacted without a server shutdown and without people having to change client side game data. All game data in SC2 is client side.
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I read somewhere that this could possibly effect Siege Tank splash. Confirm/Deny?
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On September 29 2010 00:43 Zerksys wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:32 Damaskinos wrote:Thanks to the efforts of Carnac and Raketti, we got pretty much of an picture, of what happened to Ultralisks in the 2 last patches. It's beyond doubt, that the so called "bug", of attacking a building with an Ultralisk and seeing 20 SCVs in the whole perimeter of the building dying, should be addressed in some way. It's now claimed, that Ultralisks are rended useless, and somehow I remember those claims were also there directly after the patch 1.1. based on the reduced damage. OK, it's obvious from the pictures taken by Raketti that with the 1.1.1 the splash got reduced also in it's radius. Opposite to Thors Ultras are really fast moving units. They also do splash. Maybe after the change in the way the splash is geting applied, there should be an increase to damage done (to prepatch-1.1-level) or the radius should be slightly increased (by .5 or 1, maybe wiht an lower damage coefficient, so Ultras will have, like siege tanks, 3 coefficients). Those are ideas, those are things one can talk about... ...but. Despite the warning of the OP, the fellow posters continue to QQ instead of contributing. Really folks, I don't get it! Is it so difficult to you to be productive? I mean, look at the Koreans. The moment I write these lines, there are 6 Zerg in the TOP 10 of the Korean ladder. If one looks at the US and EU ladders... Zero... (Zerg=Zero-"o"+"g"  ). /irony One can ask himself: can it be, that Zerg is simply to complicated for people living in cultures, that consider fast food being appropriate nutrition? /irony. Please, use your heads. Bring your skill in playing your beloved race to the maximum, spot the weknesses, call them by their name, contribute to the forums, be creative with your ideas, but always respecting the players of the other races, and maybe then we could look forward to a better game. It's a pitty, you have to do partialy the job of the game designers, but hey, we are a community and they are also just human... Have fun discussing Which totally explains why there is only 1 zerg left in the gsl. Stats are going to vary region by region but the gsl is international. What you said can also apply to terrans. The instant the planetary fortress repair was nerfed terrans began complaining. Within days it was fixed. Understand that this is very frustrating for zerg players who have been commenting for weeks about how underpowered their early to mid game is.
I undestand easily what happened. As I am sure you understand, that what was happening to SCV, was simply ridiculous. Maybe Blizzard considered the second to be a broken mechanic, while the first being a more complicated matter. And yes, there is only 1 Zerg left in the 4. And 0 Protoss. Still I think Protoss wont feel underpowered (even though I think Blizzard hited Zelots to strong, or maybe their charge should be a faster available tech now).
I also think something must be done with terrans. Maybe reduce Medivac-Healing by 20% AND reduce the attack speed buff provided by Stim to 25%. This is an balance issue. The Ultralisk-Issue now might be also a balance issue. What happened with buildings wasnt one, it was broken (and yes, shame on Blizzard, the didnt seen that forehand).
Regarding the Zergs on the GSL: IdrA not being able to scout an expansion, or Check making some really bad decisions in the round of 16 is not Blizzards fault... and so on... but all this goes beyond the scope of the thread. In my first post I gave some Ideas, what can be done, to buff
Ultras. I am not sure, if it's necessary, I also thought giving the example with the Korean ladder would be also food for thought. Considering my position I would like to say, that I dont have much more to contribute, and so I will stfu and dont post anymore in this thread.
Thanks for reading, hail you Zerg players, may the balance be restored!
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On September 29 2010 01:02 Gamidragon wrote:
I read somewhere that this could possibly effect Siege Tank splash. Confirm/Deny?
Nope. Siege Tank splash has never been extended by unit radius.
Archons used to work like Ultras, but it was removed in beta patch 16. In fact the patch notes state they removed it from Ultralisks, but they actually never did.
As of Patch 1.1, Ultralisks were the only unit whose splash increased by unit size.
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its unbelievable a multi million dollar company as blizzard does not do some balance testing before patching. Quite amateur .. they should hire at least part time some pro players to do smoe analysis before patching, they should be able to afford.
While 1.1 had side effects buffing ultras a bit too strong (community took < 5 hours to figure that out), now they completely screwed ultras (community took < 5 hours to figure that out). Seems like Blizzard puts most of its money into hype and marketing ..
Don't think ultras are worth the money with this nerf ..
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took away my ram. took away my splash. can't take my freedom.
I'd rather have ram back. splash is useless vs buildings anyway.
If they are going to bring the splash to pre-patching( In beta) locations ( front of target) then they need to bring it back to pre patching damage % (its 33% now, it was 100% in beta when splash was reduced like this)
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On September 29 2010 00:58 dvide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:43 theSAiNT wrote:Well, seems like the first blue post addressing this issue suggest that it is 'working as intended'. As long as no official statement is published by us, I can only say that we should refer to the Ultralisk behaviour as game mechanics, not as a bug.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/656096468Maybe they didn't want to include a nerf to the weakest race so they snuck it in as a 'bugfix'. There's no conspiracy here. This was a bugfix patch and not a balance patch, and they did fix the bug as was their intention to do so. The fact that the bug also had some balance implications is not something they are going to consider too heavily during the bugfix patch, but they are probably going to examine it in more detail for future balance patches and possibly adjust the new radius accordingly. This sort of bureaucracy is not necessarily brilliant for us, but I don't imagine it was indented as a sneaky malicious way to nerf the zerg.
So you're saying that the bug testing team at Blizzard was so incompetent that they
1) Did not notice that the bugfix significantly changed Ultralisk behaviour relative to the original 1.0/1.1 versions. Something which forumers picked up on immediately.
or
2) Did not realize that such a change had balance implications.
These make me even sadder than the conspiracy theory.
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EPT
