|
I've just checked things in a unit tester and I rejoiced.
Ultras still kill Thors in the same numbers when not even on creep. When numbers get bigger it's just a matter of a good spread and flanking to still let Ultras win.
I didn't toy with spreading Thors by millimeters because I don't think this will be used much.
It's not as easy as using magic box to keep mutas spread - they do it under 5 seconds without any help from player. No matter whether they are on the move or not.
Thors need to be picked and ordered one by one. If there are other units too close, they will mess up with that by pushing Thors back.
And it needs to be done each time Thors were moved and there may be battle happening. All zerg needs to do is threat battles but not engage and terran will go crazy having to spread Thors in vain.
Spreading them using patrol works however.
But if Terran will do it then to make this comparison fair and not just another whine we need to include what zerg can do. We need to include Queens with transfuse in this.
And that is still comparing pure Thor army to pure Ultra army and that kind of armies aren't used by top players -_^ and I don't think we will see them unless that's all what's left after earlier battles and both players still want to engage.
Another thing is upgrades, during testing I got an impression that Ultras are getting stronger against Thors at even upgrades.
Zerg players rather will upgrade both carapace and melee but will terrans upgrade vehicle armor as much? That's another plus for zerg.
What really makes Thors strong against Ultras is their 250mm cannon upgrade but it's damage can be greatly reduced by picking targeted Ultras with overlords.
It is also pretty much wasted energy if used on front row ultras, that are targeted by other thors.
Those few seconds that Thors need to set their cannons up and later to go back to their standard mode can be used against them too if terran uses too many of them at once.
One more thing: I can't believe that so many players expect ultras to be the ultimate unit against everything including marines, that needs for example no banelings to help them.
It's strange because as far as I know ultras in BW were mainly tanks and cracklings were the main damage dealers.
Why do people want ultras as the only thing needed in the late game now, in SC2?
|
On September 28 2010 23:43 Superouman wrote:
Can't they just reduce the splash area only for buildings? This. Including the radius of the building to the count, so that very large buildings don't create ridiculous splash.
|
On October 05 2010 21:42 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 23:43 Superouman wrote:
Can't they just reduce the splash area only for buildings? This. Including the radius of the building to the count, so that very large buildings don't create ridiculous splash.
Ultras never had splash radius so big it could hit something on the other side of larger buildings.
The bug made their splash to be extended by buildings and that's something completely different.
|
On October 05 2010 21:53 beetlelisk wrote:
Ultras never had splash radius so big it could hit something on the other side of larger buildings.
The bug made their splash to be extended by buildings and that's something completely different.
The ultra normal attack vr units has always been (sense beta) 2+radius of the unit attacked.
The building attack (also called ram), had no splash at all. The building attack was removed and replaced with the normal attack in 1.1 (This was recorded in the patch notes as expected behavior). So there was no bug that caused splash to be extended by the radius of the building, it was just a change purposfuly introduced by the dev team in patch 1.1. Now in patch 1.1.1, the bug team (a totaly diffrent team at blizzard), saw the splash on the ultra and thought it was a bug. Its only a matter of time before the dev team (the real game balancers) get a chance to fix the ultra eather by resetting the AOE, or by improving the DPS at the new splash radius so that it is back to balanced. New patches (especialy balance patches), take a long time to test before they can release them.
|
On October 05 2010 21:33 beetlelisk wrote:I've just checked things in a unit tester and I rejoiced. Ultras still kill Thors in the same numbers when not even on creep. When numbers get bigger it's just a matter of a good spread and flanking to still let Ultras win. I didn't toy with spreading Thors by millimeters because I don't think this will be used much. It's not as easy as using magic box to keep mutas spread - they do it under 5 seconds without any help from player. No matter whether they are on the move or not. Thors need to be picked and ordered one by one. If there are other units too close, they will mess up with that by pushing Thors back. And it needs to be done each time Thors were moved and there may be battle happening. All zerg needs to do is threat battles but not engage and terran will go crazy having to spread Thors in vain. Spreading them using patrol works however. But if Terran will do it then to make this comparison fair and not just another whine we need to include what zerg can do. We need to include Queens with transfuse in this. And that is still comparing pure Thor army to pure Ultra army and that kind of armies aren't used by top players -_^ and I don't think we will see them unless that's all what's left after earlier battles and both players still want to engage. Another thing is upgrades, during testing I got an impression that Ultras are getting stronger against Thors at even upgrades. Zerg players rather will upgrade both carapace and melee but will terrans upgrade vehicle armor as much? That's another plus for zerg. What really makes Thors strong against Ultras is their 250mm cannon upgrade but it's damage can be greatly reduced by picking targeted Ultras with overlords. It is also pretty much wasted energy if used on front row ultras, that are targeted by other thors. Those few seconds that Thors need to set their cannons up and later to go back to their standard mode can be used against them too if terran uses too many of them at once.
One more thing: I can't believe that so many players expect ultras to be the ultimate unit against everything including marines, that needs for example no banelings to help them. It's strange because as far as I know ultras in BW were mainly tanks and cracklings were the main damage dealers. Why do people want ultras as the only thing needed in the late game now, in SC2?
Idk if that was sarcasm but we clearly saw ogstop vs fruitdealer on Kulas have this engagement. Ultras pwndizzled, but I agree, ti would have been much stronger to have added 2 more reactored factories and pump hellions and have slightly less Thors.
|
United Kingdom16710 Posts
started playing random today and had 2 ZvTs where i had like 12 ultras and 4 infestors. he had like 8 thors and a few marauders and some blue flamed hellions. i was sure i was going to win but ALL my ultras died when he lost half his thors. pretty ridiculous.
|
On October 06 2010 02:08 Telcontar wrote:
started playing random today and had 2 ZvTs where i had like 12 ultras and 4 infestors. he had like 8 thors and a few marauders and some blue flamed hellions. i was sure i was going to win but ALL my ultras died when he lost half his thors. pretty ridiculous.
Welcome to zerg.
Terran only need light unit to tank the ultras and they are fine.
So you need to mix in banelings and infestors but then you dont have much gaz to spend on ultras.
|
On October 06 2010 02:25 SLush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 02:08 Telcontar wrote:
started playing random today and had 2 ZvTs where i had like 12 ultras and 4 infestors. he had like 8 thors and a few marauders and some blue flamed hellions. i was sure i was going to win but ALL my ultras died when he lost half his thors. pretty ridiculous. Welcome to zerg. Terran only need light unit to tank the ultras and they are fine. So you need to mix in banelings and infestors but then you dont have much gaz to spend on ultras.
they dont even need that. a slight thor spread(like moving the front thors one tile away from the rest) will makes ultras do really bad vs em.
mass thors (10+) did ok against ultras in 1.0. now they just stomp em.
|
On October 06 2010 02:25 SLush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 02:08 Telcontar wrote:
started playing random today and had 2 ZvTs where i had like 12 ultras and 4 infestors. he had like 8 thors and a few marauders and some blue flamed hellions. i was sure i was going to win but ALL my ultras died when he lost half his thors. pretty ridiculous. Welcome to zerg. Terran only need light unit to tank the ultras and they are fine. So you need to mix in banelings and infestors but then you dont have much gaz to spend on ultras.
Yeah, if you're going to play zerg (or random) get used to hearing "We require more vespene gas"
|
On October 05 2010 12:55 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 12:33 Triscuit wrote:On October 05 2010 12:11 rS.Sinatra wrote:On October 05 2010 12:05 ch4ppi wrote:I don't understand the huge issue with this. Its not like Ultralisks had splash damage in Starcraft 1. Its not like there has been Marauders/Planetary Fortresses/ Thors.... should I really keep goin on? what a stupid argument =) marauders and thors are designed to counter ultras though... How are Thors designed to counter ultras? They don't do bonus damage versus them, and they have bonus damage done unto them. Ultras are supposed to be a counter to Thors. At least that's my understanding. they have a spell that does massive amounts of damage to a target unit... i mean.. it doesnt get more simple than that...
Thors can deal higher dps with their normal attack and can focus fire with it, while ultras have a passive that makes them immune to the stun, so using it on ultras is pretty stupid.
|
I feel like in most games ultras just aren't ENOUGH to win, gotta get more stuff, like, everything. roaches, lings, blings, bling dropbombs, infestors...I've been seriously considering starting getting hydras against T to be able to stop the 2 base thors push by terran, it seems no amount of infestor/ling/roach is enough
|
On October 05 2010 21:33 beetlelisk wrote:I've just checked things in a unit tester and I rejoiced. Ultras still kill Thors in the same numbers when not even on creep. When numbers get bigger it's just a matter of a good spread and flanking to still let Ultras win. I didn't toy with spreading Thors by millimeters because I don't think this will be used much. It's not as easy as using magic box to keep mutas spread - they do it under 5 seconds without any help from player. No matter whether they are on the move or not. Thors need to be picked and ordered one by one. If there are other units too close, they will mess up with that by pushing Thors back. And it needs to be done each time Thors were moved and there may be battle happening. All zerg needs to do is threat battles but not engage and terran will go crazy having to spread Thors in vain. Spreading them using patrol works however. But if Terran will do it then to make this comparison fair and not just another whine we need to include what zerg can do. We need to include Queens with transfuse in this. And that is still comparing pure Thor army to pure Ultra army and that kind of armies aren't used by top players -_^ and I don't think we will see them unless that's all what's left after earlier battles and both players still want to engage. Another thing is upgrades, during testing I got an impression that Ultras are getting stronger against Thors at even upgrades. Zerg players rather will upgrade both carapace and melee but will terrans upgrade vehicle armor as much? That's another plus for zerg. What really makes Thors strong against Ultras is their 250mm cannon upgrade but it's damage can be greatly reduced by picking targeted Ultras with overlords. It is also pretty much wasted energy if used on front row ultras, that are targeted by other thors. Those few seconds that Thors need to set their cannons up and later to go back to their standard mode can be used against them too if terran uses too many of them at once.
One more thing: I can't believe that so many players expect ultras to be the ultimate unit against everything including marines, that needs for example no banelings to help them. It's strange because as far as I know ultras in BW were mainly tanks and cracklings were the main damage dealers. Why do people want ultras as the only thing needed in the late game now, in SC2?
This sounded dubious to me so I tested it and it is not true. Thors start to win at 3 and it gets very lopsided from there. Once you get up to 12 half the Thors survive. This is with max upgrades for both without using 250mm cannons.
|
On October 06 2010 02:59 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 21:33 beetlelisk wrote:I've just checked things in a unit tester and I rejoiced. Ultras still kill Thors in the same numbers when not even on creep. When numbers get bigger it's just a matter of a good spread and flanking to still let Ultras win. I didn't toy with spreading Thors by millimeters because I don't think this will be used much. It's not as easy as using magic box to keep mutas spread - they do it under 5 seconds without any help from player. No matter whether they are on the move or not. Thors need to be picked and ordered one by one. If there are other units too close, they will mess up with that by pushing Thors back. And it needs to be done each time Thors were moved and there may be battle happening. All zerg needs to do is threat battles but not engage and terran will go crazy having to spread Thors in vain. Spreading them using patrol works however. But if Terran will do it then to make this comparison fair and not just another whine we need to include what zerg can do. We need to include Queens with transfuse in this. And that is still comparing pure Thor army to pure Ultra army and that kind of armies aren't used by top players -_^ and I don't think we will see them unless that's all what's left after earlier battles and both players still want to engage. Another thing is upgrades, during testing I got an impression that Ultras are getting stronger against Thors at even upgrades. Zerg players rather will upgrade both carapace and melee but will terrans upgrade vehicle armor as much? That's another plus for zerg. What really makes Thors strong against Ultras is their 250mm cannon upgrade but it's damage can be greatly reduced by picking targeted Ultras with overlords. It is also pretty much wasted energy if used on front row ultras, that are targeted by other thors. Those few seconds that Thors need to set their cannons up and later to go back to their standard mode can be used against them too if terran uses too many of them at once.
One more thing: I can't believe that so many players expect ultras to be the ultimate unit against everything including marines, that needs for example no banelings to help them. It's strange because as far as I know ultras in BW were mainly tanks and cracklings were the main damage dealers. Why do people want ultras as the only thing needed in the late game now, in SC2? This sounded dubious to me so I tested it and it is not true. Thors start to win at 3 and it gets very lopsided from there. Once you get up to 12 half the Thors survive. This is with max upgrades for both without using 250mm cannons.
In my results Thors didn't start to win until 14 vs 14 on a tight map without spreading them but I will try this again with different upgrades.
Using mock battle unit tester on the brawl map I could go 20 vs 20 and with good ultra spread ultras were winning. Well Thors were spread too in a 2-4 Thor wide line so I need to check this one again too.
My general impression was Ultras gain more from upgrades then Thors.
|
I used Superferret's Unit_Tester_Map. I spread them out up to 4 which seems reasonable. Then I let them bunch up.
|
On October 06 2010 00:58 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 21:33 beetlelisk wrote:I've just checked things in a unit tester and I rejoiced. Ultras still kill Thors in the same numbers when not even on creep. When numbers get bigger it's just a matter of a good spread and flanking to still let Ultras win. I didn't toy with spreading Thors by millimeters because I don't think this will be used much. It's not as easy as using magic box to keep mutas spread - they do it under 5 seconds without any help from player. No matter whether they are on the move or not. Thors need to be picked and ordered one by one. If there are other units too close, they will mess up with that by pushing Thors back. And it needs to be done each time Thors were moved and there may be battle happening. All zerg needs to do is threat battles but not engage and terran will go crazy having to spread Thors in vain. Spreading them using patrol works however. But if Terran will do it then to make this comparison fair and not just another whine we need to include what zerg can do. We need to include Queens with transfuse in this. And that is still comparing pure Thor army to pure Ultra army and that kind of armies aren't used by top players -_^ and I don't think we will see them unless that's all what's left after earlier battles and both players still want to engage. Another thing is upgrades, during testing I got an impression that Ultras are getting stronger against Thors at even upgrades. Zerg players rather will upgrade both carapace and melee but will terrans upgrade vehicle armor as much? That's another plus for zerg. What really makes Thors strong against Ultras is their 250mm cannon upgrade but it's damage can be greatly reduced by picking targeted Ultras with overlords. It is also pretty much wasted energy if used on front row ultras, that are targeted by other thors. Those few seconds that Thors need to set their cannons up and later to go back to their standard mode can be used against them too if terran uses too many of them at once.
One more thing: I can't believe that so many players expect ultras to be the ultimate unit against everything including marines, that needs for example no banelings to help them. It's strange because as far as I know ultras in BW were mainly tanks and cracklings were the main damage dealers. Why do people want ultras as the only thing needed in the late game now, in SC2? Idk if that was sarcasm but we clearly saw ogstop vs fruitdealer on Kulas have this engagement. Ultras pwndizzled, but I agree, ti would have been much stronger to have added 2 more reactored factories and pump hellions and have slightly less Thors.
TBH I haven't seen that series until now, I was going to but I forgot :/
but yeah, just adding Hellions to tank would make things different and then Cool would have to respond with something against Hellions, and so on.
On October 06 2010 03:22 Grond wrote:
I used Superferret's Unit_Tester_Map. I spread them out up to 4 which seems reasonable. Then I let them bunch up.
OK I will find this one and make tests again on both 
edit: could you please give me a link to that unit tester?
I'm having hard time trying to find it :/
edit
On October 06 2010 00:40 obsid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 21:53 beetlelisk wrote:
Ultras never had splash radius so big it could hit something on the other side of larger buildings.
The bug made their splash to be extended by buildings and that's something completely different. The ultra normal attack vr units has always been (sense beta) 2+radius of the unit attacked. The building attack (also called ram), had no splash at all. The building attack was removed and replaced with the normal attack in 1.1 (This was recorded in the patch notes as expected behavior). So there was no bug that caused splash to be extended by the radius of the building, it was just a change purposfuly introduced by the dev team in patch 1.1. Now in patch 1.1.1, the bug team (a totaly diffrent team at blizzard), saw the splash on the ultra and thought it was a bug. Its only a matter of time before the dev team (the real game balancers) get a chance to fix the ultra eather by resetting the AOE, or by improving the DPS at the new splash radius so that it is back to balanced. New patches (especialy balance patches), take a long time to test before they can release them.
Splash damage being extended could be made so on purpose. Maybe they wanted more people using Ultras to get more data and balance them.
Or it could be just that it was a bug, they wanted to change ultras so they would do splash and hit more buildings with it:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147880
Zerg
Ultralisk damage is being decreased from 15, +25 vs. armored to 15, +20 vs. armored. This reduction is comparable to the changes being made to the battlecruiser and siege tank. Like the battlecruiser, ultralisks are simply too powerful for the cost, even though they are difficult to muster. Also, in combination with other units, ultralisks are difficult to counter from the ground. The ultralisk building attack (Ram) is being removed because the damage rate is too similar to its normal attack, which will be used against buildings instead. When ultralisks target tightly packed smaller buildings such as supply depots, the Ram attack is actually outputting considerably less overall damage than its normal attack, as Ram only hits a single target.
|
Nice analysis beetlelisk.
I think that jsut 1unit vs 1unit army comparisons are not nearly adequate to display a units relative effectiveness. I also dont think that the basic design concept of the ultra really suggest it should be a counter to a Thor *Ultra being a highly tanky AOE melee, (well, range 1,) unit taht has a fair amount of speed and is resistant to slowing effects ect* and ill explain why.
The extra damage to armor doesnt neccessarilly mean that: This unit MUST counter all units it does bonus damage to, in the same way that a tanks seige damage MUST be counter to all armored units. The basic idea of a Ultra consisting of splash damage suggests its more proficient agaisnt tightly packed small size units as well.
The Ultra is also a "fast" speed unit, that has the ability to resist most things that immobilize it. This also makes me think that its purpose isnt naturally inclined to counter thors. This more suggests it should be good at neutralizing swift, kiting fond units and tactics and give the enemy the sense that he cant easily avoid or dance around or deter his foe and have to stand his ground or risk a costly retreat. With this Logic an ultra should be a higher priority for your foe to focus down and thus makes greater use of the tanking aspect of it.
Thus with this logic i dont think the Thor should be its natural target anyway and a thor does a lot of damage concentrated in 2 attacks which would serve well in bypassing an ultras high armor rating *overpowering its tanking prowess*. To me at least, the attributes of a Ultra is idealy designed to take care of lets say marauders since it resists its slow, does AOE to the relatively small unit, and does extra damage to heavy. Thors should be countered by something else.
Im not saying this means Ultras are anywhere near balanced or that they are good enough against marauders. These factors to me indicate that we should want the Ultra to be more proficient for these purposes *killing smaller sized armored units like marauders, tanks, and stalkers and acting as a tank for damage and affecting the foes psychology so he reasons he has to deal with the ultra first* and should be made to excell against certain bioball builds and bio tank builds.
Perhaps it needs more uses than just this to make it a unique and dynamic unit that is worth fielding, but at least if it needs enhancing we can direct it to be better for a more targeted nich rather than it being a spread thin, all around anti-armor idea and risk it being a deal with everything unit or a good agaisnt nothing unit. Maybe the Ultra could use a move while attack attribute like the pheonix in order to fullfill the anti marauder ball role better.
|
I checked and it doesn't seem to be available right now. Really not liking Blizzard's map system. Hopefully it will show up again soon. Usually you can just search maps by Superferret and it will show up.
i.e. Multiplayer-> Create game-> Popular then search for Superferret.
|
I think everybody that has followed the patch notes through beta knows there was no bug. Blizzard didn't adequately test the change and it was stronger than they wanted. They then compounded the issue by overreacting and not adequately testing the fix either. The problem is this diminishes their credibility and this methodology is not conducive to achieving balance.
|
Not just "stronger than they wanted". With a PF it was visually ridiculous, to have units so far from the ultra get damaged, to the point that it was obviously retarded and had to be changed.
And it was similarly ridiculous with thors, just wasn't noticed until now, because you don't see 20 SCVs repair one thor as often as a PF.
You can't have the area of the damage depend on the size of attacked unit, simple as that. It just doesn't make sense - the ultra doesn't grow up his blades in accordance with the target or anything, nor is it launching some magical projectiles all around the target. So the 1.1.1 fix was correct. Stop whining.
|
On October 06 2010 17:54 georgir wrote:You can't have the area of the damage depend on the size of attacked unit, simple as that. It just doesn't make sense - the ultra doesn't grow up his blades in accordance with the target or anything, nor is it launching some magical projectiles all around the target. So the 1.1.1 fix was correct. Stop whining.
Why not? No need to search for logic in this game.
Also people like you seem not to understand the problem. Noone says that old mechanic is right, thing is that they nerfed Ultra so much w/o any intentions to do so. Making splash much lower w/o boosting overall damage just shows how ignorant Blizzard is when it comes to balancing the game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
