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On October 04 2010 11:01 theqat wrote:
you can't possibly tell zerg/protoss to "just kill the SCVs." Killing a Terran's SCVs is borderline meaningless thanks to MULEs.
That said I think Cool demonstrated that Ultras are far from useless or neutered, plus he brought a couple Infestors for keeping SCVs from repairing PFs. Seems reasonable to me as you should be building Infestors in almost any game vs. T
Your assessment of mules to me is a bit innacurate. Yes they do help especialy if you have been saving up the energy for the rainy day *or due to lazy macro* and perhaps it really does soften the blow more than it should but while this boosts resource gathering it doesnt deny the fact that if you destroyed the SCV's you still would have slowed his economy much more compared to what you would have accomplished if you had just targeted the PF alone and lost most of your forces while still not destroying the PF. Im not saying microing to kill scv's is easy, but its more worth your effort to kill those than waste an army on a PF. And If your already there, them using mules that are still vulnerable to attacks if he hasnt routed your army back can pose another oppertunity, perhaps for an infestor burrowed in the chaos of an attack.
At least you have the cunning to respond with an arguement.
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On September 29 2010 12:34 afiddy wrote:
Dear Blizzard,
Please stop putting your dick in my anus, it is very uncomfortable and I think it's bleeding.
User was warned for this post
LoL. He gets a warning for this and I get banned for saying "blue is being a scumbag." I don't think that is very consistent but w/e. Anywho, I'm not sure what to do anymore with this change.
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On October 04 2010 11:09 Moa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 11:01 theqat wrote:
you can't possibly tell zerg/protoss to "just kill the SCVs." Killing a Terran's SCVs is borderline meaningless thanks to MULEs. I am inclined to agree with you but instead of calling killing SCVs meaningless I would say that it is as meaningless (or meaningful) as killing drones. Gathfox: On the subject of killing larvae the re-saturation of a mineral line not only costs a ton of minerals it also costs a production cycle or two which means that zerg will be able to make less units. Each egg could be an ultralisk but it has to be a drone. Comparing the production cycles of each race is a fruitless task because of the differences between them. That is not the issue at hand. The thread is discussing the changes to the ultralisk, a unit which is an anti-ground anti-armor unit which has now lost the ability to be cost effective against a unit that is both armored and ground, the thor.
Indeed you have a point about the larvae cost, which would come into play if the actual larvae count has been pressured a lot in a game. To say comparing each races mode of production is fruitless is incorrect i believe since it allows you to understand how to better neuter that production *killing a tech building to deny zerg an entire particular unit for example* but if anything is fruitless about it its arguing balance with it.
And yes this is rather off topic a thing for me to get fired up about. And i can imagine what a psychological blow losing the ultralisks profficiency at its prior tasks can be for a zerg.
I must ask though. are Ultras the only way to deal with a thor? And if other counters can be made enough against them what should the ultras purpose be changed to?
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Ultra AoE nerf has a huge affect ZvZ as well. Used to be able to pump out Ultras to beat hydra infestor roach, which was somewhat soft countering eachother, except the ultras cant be rooted down like if you sent in lings + banelings.
Now, the splash is so minimal that even the slightest positional spacing of hydras or roaches will nullify it entirely. With no micro, its a fairly even battle usually ending with almost no forces for either side, or, all of you ultras dieing and you having to reinforce. The only reason units will take ultra splash is because they don't take the time to space a few packed units apart, and you nulify that damage. Before 1.1.1, if you saw Ultras, you needed mutas, or lots more hydra in a choke, and even then there was even losses for hydra. Now hydra do so much better vs ultra.
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I think the latest patch makes more sense, even if it is unfair to zerg. The splash area should not depend on the unit you are hitting. That said, the splash area could be buffed to compensate for this difference. Ultras are really the only good AoE zerg gets without lurks. A larger splash would help them hit Thors and SCVs more easily.
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ultras are pretty beastly even with this "nerf," so its not that big a deal for most players. its the professionals who might have a real pain with it.
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On October 04 2010 11:23 NewDeal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 11:09 Moa wrote:
The thread is discussing the changes to the ultralisk, a unit which is an anti-ground anti-armor unit which has now lost the ability to be cost effective against a unit that is both armored and ground, the thor. I find it most annoying that when the opposing units are armored and also anti-armored, the Ultras get raped. That shows the ineffectiveness of the Ultra to me. Marauders and Immortals are armored and anti-armored and they make Ultras wish they were still in the larva stage. Of course Immortals aren't that good against, uh, lings I guess, and Marauders don't have counters as we all know. But Ultras have great counters, including units they're supposed to be good against (Marauders/Immortals/Thors/Blink Stalkers) and units like Marines, Zealots, Archons, and of course flying units. Why does it have to be this way? Why do zerg units always have half the unit pool as counters, while units like Marauders, Thors, Tanks, Stalkers, Colossi, Immortals all can be massed and have at most one (ground) unit that are good against them, and have to be dealt with using spells and good micro? Zerg units can be countered just building a different attacking unit and you're ok.
It's so true...
The thor is armored, ground, and can attack ground and air, and is all around good vs everything - especially light air units.
The ultralisk is an anti-armored unit that can only attack ground, and costs the same. It takes much much much longer to tech to.
And it loses!
But, that's really how Zerg is - with the exception of the zergling and muta, every unit is just plain BAD on paper. Marauder vs Roach, which would you rather have? Hydralisk or Stalker? Infestor or any other caster? Corruptor or Viking?
However, Zerg's advantages can overcome this. Zerg's advantage of building everything from larvae is enough to overcome their inherent speed gimp off creep, their early game impotence, their difficult macro, their battles with one-way micro (ie roach/hydra vs army w/ forcefields), their slow-as-hell tech, their expensive tech, their inability to wall, etc etc.
They have a looong list of disadvantages, and one huge advantage - the larvae mechanic. That's enough to make up for it, believe it or not, as Cool demonstrated.
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Cool demonstrated he can win with a race no one else can consistently. GSL prooved that Cool was better than the rest, NOT that zerg is better than terran or protoss.
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On October 04 2010 16:39 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 11:23 NewDeal wrote:On October 04 2010 11:09 Moa wrote:
The thread is discussing the changes to the ultralisk, a unit which is an anti-ground anti-armor unit which has now lost the ability to be cost effective against a unit that is both armored and ground, the thor. I find it most annoying that when the opposing units are armored and also anti-armored, the Ultras get raped. That shows the ineffectiveness of the Ultra to me. Marauders and Immortals are armored and anti-armored and they make Ultras wish they were still in the larva stage. Of course Immortals aren't that good against, uh, lings I guess, and Marauders don't have counters as we all know. But Ultras have great counters, including units they're supposed to be good against (Marauders/Immortals/Thors/Blink Stalkers) and units like Marines, Zealots, Archons, and of course flying units. Why does it have to be this way? Why do zerg units always have half the unit pool as counters, while units like Marauders, Thors, Tanks, Stalkers, Colossi, Immortals all can be massed and have at most one (ground) unit that are good against them, and have to be dealt with using spells and good micro? Zerg units can be countered just building a different attacking unit and you're ok. It's so true... The thor is armored, ground, and can attack ground and air, and is all around good vs everything - especially light air units. The ultralisk is an anti-armored unit that can only attack ground, and costs the same. It takes much much much longer to tech to. And it loses! But, that's really how Zerg is - with the exception of the zergling and muta, every unit is just plain BAD on paper. Marauder vs Roach, which would you rather have? Hydralisk or Stalker? Infestor or any other caster? Corruptor or Viking? However, Zerg's advantages can overcome this. Zerg's advantage of building everything from larvae is enough to overcome their inherent speed gimp off creep, their early game impotence, their difficult macro, their battles with one-way micro (ie roach/hydra vs army w/ forcefields), their slow-as-hell tech, their expensive tech, their inability to wall, etc etc. They have a looong list of disadvantages, and one huge advantage - the larvae mechanic. That's enough to make up for it, believe it or not, as Cool demonstrated.
Larva mechanic still require great economy which you cannot get vs decent terran that harass you, cool won only becouse ITR failed to do any harass.
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I'll be happy with an ultra speed buff.
I maen in BW they move as fast as zerglings so you can 1a your entire army w/o worryin gabout they become dislodged
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On October 04 2010 15:58 EriktheGuy wrote:
Ultras are really the only good AoE zerg gets without lurks. .
Right... what?
Ever heard about mutalisks, infestors, broodlords or banelings?
On topic.. This is not a nerf, this not a bug, its a FIX. Blizzard just said it pretty clearly.. Ultra splash was bigger than intended, it needed to be fixed. And as far as I am concerned, this splash was indeed too big. And I'm not talking about PF splash, but pre 1.1 splash.
Even now, Ultra is still a killer unit.
So when siege tank got heavily nerfed, it's normal and l2p. But if the bugged ultralisk is fixed (and slightly nerfed, -5 dmg v armor), it is a very cruel nerf and the unit is now useless (lol at that seriously, you obviously dont know what a 1.1 ultra is, because as a terran, I know it very precisely).
And what's your problem, Moa makes some points, he comes up with an elaborate text, and you ppl just insult him ? What kind of person are you...
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On October 04 2010 19:17 Burban wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 15:58 EriktheGuy wrote:
Ultras are really the only good AoE zerg gets without lurks. . Right... what? Ever heard about mutalisks, infestors, broodlords or banelings? On topic.. This is not a nerf, this not a bug, its a FIX. Blizzard just said it pretty clearly.. Ultra splash was bigger than intended, it needed to be fixed. And as far as I am concerned, this splash was indeed too big. And I'm not talking about PF splash, but pre 1.1 splash. Even now, Ultra is still a killer unit. So when siege tank got heavily nerfed, it's normal and l2p. But if the bugged ultralisk is fixed (and slightly nerfed, -5 dmg v armor), it is a very cruel nerf and the unit is now useless (lol at that seriously, you obviously dont know what a 1.1 ultra is, because as a terran, I know it very precisely). And what's your problem, Moa makes some points, he comes up with an elaborate text, and you ppl just insult him ? What kind of person are you...
First of all siege tank nerf is really small, cause it only works vs. non armored (lings, hydras, banes), which dies in seconds vs. tanks anyway, so no big deal.
It seems that you don't understand the point people are saying, that it is okey that they fixed Ultra's splash, but right before they nerfed Ultra according to old spash. So Ultras has now double nerf, and that wasn't intended!
I didn't try much Ultras vs. terran but vs. toss they are so weak that it just does not worth making them anymore, unless you have absolutely perfect flank where ultras attack from all angles. Yesterday I played vs. toss and had 11 Ultras and they died in ~3 seconds w/o dealing any damage. Yeah they wasn't in good position, but still 11 of strongest unit in game shouldn't be like a paper.
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On September 28 2010 23:41 OreoBoi wrote:
Awesome, psi storm splash nerfed, ultra splash nerfed, tank splash BUFFED! (talking about patches in the beta till now)
you mean the one where they changed it from 60 to 50?
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The biggest problem I've had since the ultra nerf is dealing with Protoss in the late game. Fully upgraded blink stalkers with colossi backup and sentries are a tough army to kill. Broodlords are useless as they die so fast, but ultras were always the end game goal to even things out. Now I feel I'm at a big disadvantage in the late game.
Obviously my experiences only count as anecdotal evidence, but I think I've also noticed a change in ZvT because of it. The terrans I've faced are much more likely to go mass thor/hellion/marine but maybe that's just the current popular strat. I think someone mentioned earlier how powerful ultras forced terran to not sit and sit and sit to mass these because once zerg had too many ultras out the army got countered pretty well. In any case, I've been using more broodlords once again. At least they do benefit a lot from melee/carapace upgrades that I get for lings/blings (my broodling wall gets that much stronger).
In any case, it's well known that the patch where they changed the ultra splash to target centered +radius was the same patch where they changed the splash damage from 100% to 33%. I think if the ultras splash is now reverted to pre- beta patch 13 levels the splash damage should be increased somewhat, probably to 50-60%, and the 5dmg vs armored reduction should be undone, as it was based on faulty aoe area.
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On October 04 2010 19:17 Burban wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 15:58 EriktheGuy wrote:
Ultras are really the only good AoE zerg gets without lurks. . Right... what? Ever heard about mutalisks, infestors, broodlords or banelings? On topic.. This is not a nerf, this not a bug, its a FIX. Blizzard just said it pretty clearly.. Ultra splash was bigger than intended, it needed to be fixed. And as far as I am concerned, this splash was indeed too big. And I'm not talking about PF splash, but pre 1.1 splash. Even now, Ultra is still a killer unit. So when siege tank got heavily nerfed, it's normal and l2p. But if the bugged ultralisk is fixed (and slightly nerfed, -5 dmg v armor), it is a very cruel nerf and the unit is now useless (lol at that seriously, you obviously dont know what a 1.1 ultra is, because as a terran, I know it very precisely). And what's your problem, Moa makes some points, he comes up with an elaborate text, and you ppl just insult him ? What kind of person are you...
Please test the ultras vs any terran units at same cost... add roaches to the ultras and see how beutiful they get stuck behind the roaches... or how roaches with their great range of 3 cannot shoot becouse ultras are huge! Do you realize that mele units need time to get to the enemy... Zerg vs T is like goin to gun fight with knife... with the spalsh T had to have bio behind thors so thors tank while low health terran army do dmg. Now bio take the hits and thors doing the damage once the ultras are low hp terran still has the thors which then repair and after such battle T is way ahead destroying 1-2 expos b4 your next ultras pop out...
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Bad times to be a zerg for sure...
but to cheer every zerg up, imagine, just imagine when blizzard will fix zerg balance just how awesome every match will be, because we're already doing OK with this half broken race.
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On October 04 2010 19:17 Burban wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 15:58 EriktheGuy wrote:
Ultras are really the only good AoE zerg gets without lurks. . Right... what? Ever heard about mutalisks, infestors, broodlords or banelings? On topic.. This is not a nerf, this not a bug, its a FIX. Blizzard just said it pretty clearly.. Ultra splash was bigger than intended, it needed to be fixed. And as far as I am concerned, this splash was indeed too big. And I'm not talking about PF splash, but pre 1.1 splash. Even now, Ultra is still a killer unit. So when siege tank got heavily nerfed, it's normal and l2p. But if the bugged ultralisk is fixed (and slightly nerfed, -5 dmg v armor), it is a very cruel nerf and the unit is now useless (lol at that seriously, you obviously dont know what a 1.1 ultra is, because as a terran, I know it very precisely). And what's your problem, Moa makes some points, he comes up with an elaborate text, and you ppl just insult him ? What kind of person are you...
I forgot about banes. Broods don't AoE (but I know what you mean). Fungal and muta are good damage against bio, but I sort of meant that ultra is the only good AoE against the heavy units they are meant to deal with (Thors, tanks). Fungal stops these units from moving (like terran was going to move anyways  ), mutas get depressed when your opponent gets his armory up. Even banes do way less than zerglings against these targets.
If any unit is dealing good AoE damage to Thor/tank, it is the ultralisk (and perhaps the broodlord as you mentioned).
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Please test the ultras vs any terran units at same cost... add roaches to the ultras and see how beutiful they get stuck behind the roaches... or how roaches with their great range of 3 cannot shoot becouse ultras are huge!
This is easily mitigated by roach-burrow. It works insanely well.
I agree, the main problem with the ultra-nerf is now they don't work well against stalkers-balls. Which is actually something we desperately need.
On topic.. This is not a nerf, this not a bug, its a FIX. Blizzard just said it pretty clearly.. Ultra splash was bigger than intended, it needed to be fixed. And as far as I am concerned, this splash was indeed too big. And I'm not talking about PF splash, but pre 1.1 splash.
Regardless of whether its a fix, a bug, or whatever, it's also a nerf. A significant nerf to the splash of the ultralisk. The damage output of the ultralisk is significantly decreased (much moreso than the -5 to armored).
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On October 04 2010 19:17 Burban wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 15:58 EriktheGuy wrote:
Ultras are really the only good AoE zerg gets without lurks. . Right... what? Ever heard about mutalisks, infestors, broodlords or banelings? On topic.. This is not a nerf, this not a bug, its a FIX. Blizzard just said it pretty clearly.. Ultra splash was bigger than intended, it needed to be fixed. And as far as I am concerned, this splash was indeed too big. And I'm not talking about PF splash, but pre 1.1 splash. Even now, Ultra is still a killer unit. So when siege tank got heavily nerfed, it's normal and l2p. But if the bugged ultralisk is fixed (and slightly nerfed, -5 dmg v armor), it is a very cruel nerf and the unit is now useless (lol at that seriously, you obviously dont know what a 1.1 ultra is, because as a terran, I know it very precisely). And what's your problem, Moa makes some points, he comes up with an elaborate text, and you ppl just insult him ? What kind of person are you...
The Ultralisk attack didn't change from 1.0 to 1.1 apart from Headbutt being removed, Kaiser Blades being allowed to attack buildings, and +5 armor damage being taken off. The splash radius was not increased or decreased. The AoE was decreased universally, but to a varying degree based on target, from 1.1 to 1.1.1. This means that 1.0 to 1.1.1 universally weakened the ultralisk attack.
What they should do is flag the current Ultralisk attack as hidden and make it only capable of attacking buildings. Then, give the 1.1 attack back to Ultralisks and make it only capable of hitting non-buildings. It'll be just like 1.1 without the insane building splash.
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On October 04 2010 21:09 Jzerg wrote:
In any case, it's well known that the patch where they changed the ultra splash to target centered +radius was the same patch where they changed the splash damage from 100% to 33%. I think if the ultras splash is now reverted to pre- beta patch 13 levels the splash damage should be increased somewhat, probably to 50-60%, and the 5dmg vs armored reduction should be undone, as it was based on faulty aoe area.
I think this bears repeating.
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EPT
