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Picture evidence here: + Show Spoiler +My own short test concludes that I am able to hit a few more marines than on his picture (but still less than 1.1 I think) but it does indeed seem that siege tanks are affected similarly to thors. Siege tanks only seem smaller but the selection circle size is actually the same.
I'm confused why this is also a nerf vs smaller units like marines and zerglings. I would have thought that since the units' radii are so small, the new constant splash size would end up being larger vs them. Was there a minimum size on the old splash radius?
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On September 29 2010 00:14 HiHiByeBye wrote:
hmmm if you watch GSL game 3 cool vs top
Top had about 10-11 thors? and it died to about 7 ultras and cool only lost maybe 1 ultra?
and that is balanced? terran had no counter to ultras from the ground. Now they are more on even grounds.
Zerglings are so cost effective vs thors. Now zerg is forced to have a unit mix instead of just winning by massing ultras and zergs are crying about this?
Marauders? lol
Zerglings are cost effective when you're not sending half your scv-line to repair. Each melee unit requires a certain space to attack, which gets nullified by each consecutive SCV. Oh and zergling mass vs. Thor mass the win will go to the Thor (how shocking...)
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and its not even t3 or t3.5, its just t2.5.
basically thor has literally everything. It's the sc2 shaman.
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On September 29 2010 00:17 mishimaBeef wrote:
Isn't the correct counter to a factory based army broodlord (w/ corruptor for viking) anyway? The Ultralisk does +20 to armored.
If it is not intended to destroy mech, then what do you suggest it was intended to do?
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On September 29 2010 00:16 frucisky wrote:
I'd rather have the game balanced than logical because there is so much others illogical Stracraft. The way splash was pre-patch actually made ultras splash enough to make them cost-effective once you get the flank. Now, despite a very good flank, a ball of units will easily decimate ultras.
And tweaking other methods to bring the game to equilibrium can be more troublesome.
It's poor design to rely on one unit to solve problems. I'd rather have nerfed T3 and fix other issues than have what people argue to be extremely effective T3. Blizzard's goal shouldn't be just to have a game that resembles balanced because there's 50% win ratios. It's a game that is balanced through player skill at every instance in the game.
Plus things happen way to fast in SC2. They need to bring this pace down.
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On September 29 2010 00:14 HiHiByeBye wrote:
hmmm if you watch GSL game 3 cool vs top
Top had about 10-11 thors? and it died to about 7 ultras and cool only lost maybe 1 ultra?
and that is balanced? terran had no counter to ultras from the ground. Now they are more on even grounds.
Zerglings are so cost effective vs thors. Now zerg is forced to have a unit mix instead of just winning by massing ultras and zergs are crying about this?
Stimmed marauders rape ultras
And you cant counter thors with zerglings since terran can always add some hellions
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On September 29 2010 00:14 HiHiByeBye wrote:
hmmm if you watch GSL game 3 cool vs top
Top had about 10-11 thors? and it died to about 7 ultras and cool only lost maybe 1 ultra?
and that is balanced? terran had no counter to ultras from the ground. Now they are more on even grounds.
Thor has range 7 for ground attack and a ridiculous air range... the fact that an Ultra is a ground only melee unit is the reason for it to be able to counter Thor.
Also, any time you engage an enemy attack which has an AoE attack, you are supposed to have your units spread out to minimise the damage. If you don't then it's your fault is it not?
In any case, Terran does have counters to Ultralisks... tanks and stimmed marauders work pretty well. Not to mention, ghosts with snipe are also very potent since they are not affected by armour. If you want to be pedantic you could include banshees/battlecruisers as a counter to Ultras.
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On September 29 2010 00:18 Snowfield wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:16 JustPlay wrote:On September 29 2010 00:14 HiHiByeBye wrote:
hmmm if you watch GSL game 3 cool vs top
Top had about 10-11 thors? and it died to about 7 ultras and cool only lost maybe 1 ultra?
and that is balanced? terran had no counter to ultras from the ground. Now they are more on even grounds. Except now thors muder ultralisks with even the slightest bit of micro and zerg has no answer to thors on the ground or in the air. Post some replays maybe to support this claim? all i see is whining, and no factual evidence or actual gameplay
Try it out in unit tester and you;ll see how cost inefficient ultras are even with a perfect flank. And put that together with all the harass a zerg has to survive to get that many ultras.
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On September 29 2010 00:16 frucisky wrote:
I'd rather have the game balanced than logical because there is so much others illogical Stracraft. The way splash was pre-patch actually made ultras splash enough to make them cost-effective once you get the flank. Now, despite a very good flank, a ball of units will easily decimate ultras.
And tweaking other methods to bring the game to equilibrium can be more troublesome.
Agree. You can find so many illlogical things in Starcraft so I see no point of talking about what is logical and what is not as long as it works well and is not OP.
Ultras were fine before patch (I am not talking about PF bug), they were useful but nothing super strong. They died so fast vs. pretty much everything. I think now they may be underpowered, but we gonna see how it plays out.
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On September 29 2010 00:19 dvide wrote:Show nested quote +Picture evidence here: + Show Spoiler +My own short test concludes that I am able to hit a few more marines than on his picture (but still less than 1.1 I think) but it does indeed seem that siege tanks are affected similarly to thors. Siege tanks only seem smaller but the selection circle size is actually the same. I'm confused why this is also a nerf vs smaller units like marines and zerglings. I would have thought that since the units' radii are so small, the new constant splash size would end up being larger vs them. Was there a minimum size on the old splash radius?
It's because the splash originated from the unit. This means it's within the blob already. So it hits more units. Now the splash is from the ultra so there is all that area around the first unit/ultra that it doesn't hit. If the ultra could hit the unit within the blob instead of the side than it would most likely be the same/better.
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On September 29 2010 00:18 SwampZero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:04 SwampZero wrote:
Fun fact, the thor has a larger normalized [Surface X Damage] AOE than the Ultralisk right now.
Ultra is radius 2 at 180* for a total surface area of ~25 with 33% damage, so that ends up being 8.25.
Thor is radius 1 at 360* for a total of ~12 with 100% damage, so that ends up being 12. Plus it's AA so the damage ceiling is infinite. plus its ranged.
TL;DR Thor has a more potent AOE attack than the Ultralisk Quoting again so it sinks in. Thor has a better AOE attack than the Ultralisk. It also has a better everything than the Ultralisk....
You can quote yourself 10 times, it would still be false. Thor AoE has a radius of 0.5 and you can negate even that by simply letting your units spread by themselves.
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On September 29 2010 00:20 SwampZero wrote:
and its not even t3 or t3.5, its just t2.5.
basically thor has literally everything. It's the sc2 shaman.
I just want to add, by making just one ball of a single unit, the thor, terran can counter almost every possible food combination for the zerg. Mass mutas would get rocked, hydras, roaches, zerglings, infestors, they all lose. Ultras along with broodlords used to be the only units that could beat massed thors. If ultras can no longer perform this role (which I don't know I haven't been able to test it yet) I honestly just don't get what they are thinking.
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On September 29 2010 00:18 SwampZero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:04 SwampZero wrote:
Fun fact, the thor has a larger normalized [Surface X Damage] AOE than the Ultralisk right now.
Ultra is radius 2 at 180* for a total surface area of ~25 with 33% damage, so that ends up being 8.25.
Thor is radius 1 at 360* for a total of ~12 with 100% damage, so that ends up being 12. Plus it's AA so the damage ceiling is infinite. plus its ranged.
TL;DR Thor has a more potent AOE attack than the Ultralisk Quoting again so it sinks in. Thor has a better AOE attack than the Ultralisk. It also has a better everything than the Ultralisk....
And it has anti air aswell.
12ultra's can get killed by 1banshee lol (no, i am not saying it WILL happen, i am saying it CAN happen)
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On September 29 2010 00:23 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:19 dvide wrote:Picture evidence here: + Show Spoiler +My own short test concludes that I am able to hit a few more marines than on his picture (but still less than 1.1 I think) but it does indeed seem that siege tanks are affected similarly to thors. Siege tanks only seem smaller but the selection circle size is actually the same. I'm confused why this is also a nerf vs smaller units like marines and zerglings. I would have thought that since the units' radii are so small, the new constant splash size would end up being larger vs them. Was there a minimum size on the old splash radius? It's because the splash originated from the unit. This means it's within the blob already. So it hits more units. Now the splash is from the ultra so there is all that area around the first unit/ultra that it doesn't hit. If the ultra could hit the unit within the blob instead of the side than it would most likely be the same/better.
Ah yeah. That actually makes perfect sense, thanks.
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Has anyone tested this btw... If you A move a bunch of ultras into a repaired PF, do the ultras manage to attack the PF over the line of SCVs?
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To turn this discussion into something usefull, I suggest everyone who thinks the issue is real to post it on the Blizzard Technical Support forums. For eu the link is http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/11815/. Let's make it count !
Update : there was a repsonse from Krinskal (blue poster) on the forum about the new ultralisk issue :
As long as no official statement is published by us, I can only say that we should refer to the Ultralisk behaviour as game mechanics, not as a bug.
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On September 29 2010 00:21 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:16 frucisky wrote:
I'd rather have the game balanced than logical because there is so much others illogical Stracraft. The way splash was pre-patch actually made ultras splash enough to make them cost-effective once you get the flank. Now, despite a very good flank, a ball of units will easily decimate ultras.
And tweaking other methods to bring the game to equilibrium can be more troublesome. It's poor design to rely on one unit to solve problems. I'd rather have nerfed T3 and fix other issues than have what people argue to be extremely effective T3. Blizzard's goal shouldn't be just to have a game that resembles balanced because there's 50% win ratios. It's a game that is balanced through player skill at every instance in the game. Plus things happen way to fast in SC2. They need to bring this pace down.
With the proviso that T2 and T3 don't take an eternity to tech to for Zerg.
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What counters thor hellion now other than brood lords which get 1 shot by 5 vikings.
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On September 29 2010 00:25 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 00:18 SwampZero wrote:On September 29 2010 00:04 SwampZero wrote:
Fun fact, the thor has a larger normalized [Surface X Damage] AOE than the Ultralisk right now.
Ultra is radius 2 at 180* for a total surface area of ~25 with 33% damage, so that ends up being 8.25.
Thor is radius 1 at 360* for a total of ~12 with 100% damage, so that ends up being 12. Plus it's AA so the damage ceiling is infinite. plus its ranged.
TL;DR Thor has a more potent AOE attack than the Ultralisk Quoting again so it sinks in. Thor has a better AOE attack than the Ultralisk. It also has a better everything than the Ultralisk.... 12ultra's can get killed by 1banshee lol (no, i am not saying it WILL happen, i am saying it CAN happen)
No it can't happen.
I don't see how Ultralisk splash damage is now logical and intuitive is a bug/issue.
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How aren't people raging? This is an absolute joke. What is the point of making Ultralisks now?
Like seriously. This is a HUGE nerf and I really don't understand. Was just getting pretty happy having switched to Zerg and now? No thank you.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/dIwUm.jpg)
