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On September 25 2010 16:56 shynee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 16:45 Touch wrote:On September 24 2010 21:45 Grond wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The buildings rarely factored into it. It was mainly Thor vs Ultra and Ultras were significantly better vs Thors before the patch. Poor decision making to go mass Thor, almost any other composition would have won game 3.
P.S. It's not a bug. A Thor army is the single hardest thing to stop for a Zerg player, Thor was his absolutely best bet if he decided to go for a no aggression macro build. Also, his macro wasn't in top form. He had a 3 bases, one of them gold. If he is making a Thor army, that usually leaves 1k~2k free minerals, which he could have invested in early Turrets (turrets block every possible Zerg harassment), and more expansions, locking the drops down, and forcing the Zerg to have his population stuck at 180 with nothing but Roaches. Also, he could have supported 4+ Factories, he only had 3 the entire time. No way.. ultras and lings destroy thors. Mass thors isn't viable at all in late game when your opponent has the entire map with ultras. How are you going to attack all the expansions without getting flanked. It's impossible. End of discussion. Lings do nothing when there's a couple blue flame Hellions. Thors can kill Ultralisks at a 3~2 ratio and come out easily on top.
Don't end a discussion as an ignorant moron. End of discussion. 
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On October 04 2010 16:04 Touch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 16:56 shynee wrote:On September 25 2010 16:45 Touch wrote:On September 24 2010 21:45 Grond wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The buildings rarely factored into it. It was mainly Thor vs Ultra and Ultras were significantly better vs Thors before the patch. Poor decision making to go mass Thor, almost any other composition would have won game 3.
P.S. It's not a bug. A Thor army is the single hardest thing to stop for a Zerg player, Thor was his absolutely best bet if he decided to go for a no aggression macro build. Also, his macro wasn't in top form. He had a 3 bases, one of them gold. If he is making a Thor army, that usually leaves 1k~2k free minerals, which he could have invested in early Turrets (turrets block every possible Zerg harassment), and more expansions, locking the drops down, and forcing the Zerg to have his population stuck at 180 with nothing but Roaches. Also, he could have supported 4+ Factories, he only had 3 the entire time. No way.. ultras and lings destroy thors. Mass thors isn't viable at all in late game when your opponent has the entire map with ultras. How are you going to attack all the expansions without getting flanked. It's impossible. End of discussion. Lings do nothing when there's a couple blue flame Hellions. Thors can kill Ultralisks at a 3~2 ratio and come out easily on top. Don't end a discussion as an ignorant moron. End of discussion.
thors also dominate ultralisks at any choke ramp or cliff
the only way lings and ultras kill thors if the thors get ambushed on open ground for some reason
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I'm a Terran who hates Zerg whining, and I stilll think the sample size of "one dude won a tournament" doesn't in any way justify the ridiculous statements in this thread.
Zerg is underpowered. If you're arguing against that you're smoking TWO crack pipes concurrently.
But likewise, it's kind of disingenous to say that Cool winning has NOTHING to say about balance. It's a sign that things aren't quite as bad as some people say. Zerg is underpowered, yes, but it's not broken. You can't win the fucking GSL with a broken race.
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The terrans played poorly, if you would've actually looked at the games you would've seen that almost every win was decided by mind games. As the game on desert oasis, Cool guesses mass marine and lo and behold, ITR went mass marine. Besides, it's pretty damn stupid to balance the game around 1 player, there's pretty much nobody in this entire thread which plays at the same level as these guys.
At mid diamond you still get stomped by terrans blindly doing their builds without even scouting from time to time.
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Is it just me or do Korean terrans NOT like marauders? So many rines all the time, even when ultras are out... I always feel like it's mass thor/marine/marauder/hellion/medivacs that tear apart ling/baneling/roach/infestor/ultra (with possible mutas or hydras added in the mix).
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On October 04 2010 17:51 Sairon wrote:
The terrans played poorly, if you would've actually looked at the games you would've seen that almost every win was decided by mind games. As the game on desert oasis, Cool guesses mass marine and lo and behold, ITR went mass marine. Besides, it's pretty damn stupid to balance the game around 1 player, there's pretty much nobody in this entire thread which plays at the same level as these guys.
At mid diamond you still get stomped by terrans blindly doing their builds without even scouting from time to time.
Totally agreed.
InCa just got cheesed by Fruitseller in the first game, and the 2nd game was a more or less lucky all-in. TOP totally blew his 3rd game in a pretty ridiculous fashion and ITR did absolutely NO DMG in the early-game and let Fruitseller macro up and win the game, cuz ZvT isn't that bad in the lategame as it is in the early-game for Zerg. All the other Matches were against players that were totally inferior to Fruitseller anyways.
Besides, as Fruitseller said in an interview (and I've been having the same thoughts about this for weeks now), TvZ isn't as broken as PvZ. TvZ is very hard early on, but if you manage to survive the early-game and drone up heavily (and not die to a timing-attack when you are droning up), it's possible to win on most Maps, but against a good Protoss, the MU is hard from the beginning (a bit better now since the Zealot-nerf) to the very end.
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On October 04 2010 17:57 kickinhead wrote:
InCa just got cheesed by Fruitseller in the first game, and the 2nd game was a more or less lucky all-in. TOP totally blew his 3rd game in a pretty ridiculous fashion and ITR did absolutely NO DMG in the early-game and let Fruitseller macro up and win the game, cuz ZvT isn't that bad in the lategame as it is in the early-game for Zerg. All the other Matches were against players that were totally inferior to Fruitseller anyways.
How convenient you left out:
1) vs. oGsTOP game 1 (hellion harass)
2) vs. NexLiveForever game 1 (reaper bunker rush, then banshee harass)
3) vs. NexLiveForever game 2 (natural expo stall w/engineering bay, hellion harass)
4) vs. HopeTorture game 5 (reaper harass)
Fruit Dealer had a ton of harassment thrown at him. He just dealt with them perfectly. It's sad how everyone's berating Fruit Dealer's opponents... soooo easy to armchair quarterback.
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Dont use game 5 of that series to prove a point about reaper harass, ITR botched all his chances when he decided he wouldnt open reaper.
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On October 04 2010 06:06 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 05:47 -Archangel- wrote:
Zerg is not a weak race, it is not like none can win with Zerg. But at same level to win with zerg it takes more effort. Also weaker non-zerg players tend to win more often against zerg players then the other way around. That is the true problem. IMO that's not a balance issue. That's a minor difficulty issue. There may be some balance issues that will be found out (Reaver drops before there was a delay for shooting after dropping and the like), but the game is NOT broken, and only minor changes are necessary.
Why quote me and say game is not broken. I never said it is.
My only claim is that Zerg players need to play better to win. How would I change that, I am not sure.
It can be done by buffing Zerg or by changing macro (making it harder) of other races and reducing the power of most cost efficient units (marauders and FF for one, then mutalisks once other races are nerfed).
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On October 04 2010 19:09 andrea20 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 17:57 kickinhead wrote:
InCa just got cheesed by Fruitseller in the first game, and the 2nd game was a more or less lucky all-in. TOP totally blew his 3rd game in a pretty ridiculous fashion and ITR did absolutely NO DMG in the early-game and let Fruitseller macro up and win the game, cuz ZvT isn't that bad in the lategame as it is in the early-game for Zerg. All the other Matches were against players that were totally inferior to Fruitseller anyways. How convenient you left out: 1) vs. oGsTOP game 1 (hellion harass) 2) vs. NexLiveForever game 1 (reaper bunker rush, then banshee harass) 3) vs. NexLiveForever game 2 (natural expo stall w/engineering bay, hellion harass) 4) vs. HopeTorture game 5 (reaper harass) Fruit Dealer had a ton of harassment thrown at him. He just dealt with them perfectly. It's sad how everyone's berating Fruit Dealer's opponents... soooo easy to armchair quarterback.
Thats why I wrote ITR (Into the Rainbow/HopeTortute) did absolutely no DMG early on. He may did a Proxy-reaper-rush, but that was the one build that tried to do DMG but didn't succeed to do so...
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I really think ITR should have taken a look at TLOs TvZ, which I think is probably the strongest TvZ there is right now. Take a look at TLO vs LosirA, especially the game on blistering sands. That game I think really shows how strong that opening is. Especially take note of the timing of when the first hellion arrives. It's super strong vs any FE, and would totally demolish a hatch before pool build. As a zerg I'd say the build is strong vs any Zerg build that isn't 6 pool, because the early intel of the hellion will scout any 1 base roach opening and be able to easily counter it. It transitions very fast into banshee play to punish a late lair. Even if the hellions do no damage you'll be ahead in tech, and since hellions hard counter speedlings off creep, the terran can expand without much risk. I'm happy there's almost no terrans on the ladder that goes for this build, because it would be devastating in the hand of someone capable.
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Thors can kill ultras.. at a 3-2 ratio? When they're the same cost and supply? How is that useful for terran. Thors do well against ultras when you have choke points to work with, but it looks like the Terran-favoredness of Delta Quadrant is also ultralisk favored because it's so wide and open.
Marauders deal with ultralisks better than thors - but even then, splash and supply limits make it difficult to handle large numbers of them, especially on open ground.
I'm also really surprised at the lack of marine-hellion pushes leading into thor dropping instead of tank dropping on ledges above expansions. I feel like HopeTorture has great game sense but needs some more build orders.
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On October 04 2010 17:46 kojinshugi wrote:
I'm a Terran who hates Zerg whining, and I stilll think the sample size of "one dude won a tournament" doesn't in any way justify the ridiculous statements in this thread.
Zerg is underpowered. If you're arguing against that you're smoking TWO crack pipes concurrently.
But likewise, it's kind of disingenous to say that Cool winning has NOTHING to say about balance. It's a sign that things aren't quite as bad as some people say. Zerg is underpowered, yes, but it's not broken. You can't win the fucking GSL with a broken race.
as a zerg player...you are absolutely right! (in my opinion for sure)
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I'm sure that blizzard will see a Zerg winning the first GSL as an indicator that zerg isn't as up as people claim.
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On October 04 2010 17:57 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 17:51 Sairon wrote:
The terrans played poorly, if you would've actually looked at the games you would've seen that almost every win was decided by mind games. As the game on desert oasis, Cool guesses mass marine and lo and behold, ITR went mass marine. Besides, it's pretty damn stupid to balance the game around 1 player, there's pretty much nobody in this entire thread which plays at the same level as these guys.
At mid diamond you still get stomped by terrans blindly doing their builds without even scouting from time to time. Totally agreed. InCa just got cheesed by Fruitseller in the first game, and the 2nd game was a more or less lucky all-in. TOP totally blew his 3rd game in a pretty ridiculous fashion and ITR did absolutely NO DMG in the early-game and let Fruitseller macro up and win the game, cuz ZvT isn't that bad in the lategame as it is in the early-game for Zerg. All the other Matches were against players that were totally inferior to Fruitseller anyways. Besides, as Fruitseller said in an interview (and I've been having the same thoughts about this for weeks now), TvZ isn't as broken as PvZ. TvZ is very hard early on, but if you manage to survive the early-game and drone up heavily (and not die to a timing-attack when you are droning up), it's possible to win on most Maps, but against a good Protoss, the MU is hard from the beginning (a bit better now since the Zealot-nerf) to the very end.
PvZ is fine. 2 gate was the source of imbalance and now you can 14 hatch so long as you don't get pylon/cannon blocked on your ramp (which is the final remaining imbalance). Stalker/colossus midgame deathballs are hard to deal with, but they're managable, and if you beat it you basically win because it's so allin.
I don't ever remember fruitseller saying pvz is broken, but I'm sure it was pre 1.1. If you could link the source that'd be great.
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i dont think its fair to say ITR wasn't aggressive enough.
i think he tried pretty hard to be aggressive, he just got shut down extremely efficiently by the fruit !
he did cliff drop twice as well
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On October 04 2010 22:55 P00RKID wrote:
I'm sure that blizzard will see a Zerg winning the first GSL as an indicator that zerg isn't as up as people claim.
Do you think he regrets winning yet? Worth the money, but now his chances of winning future GSLs are smashed. Sure he can switch race, but his awesome macro play won't work the same with other races.
I think there might be some way to create free energy by continuing to convince Blizzard that Zerg is fine, then using Idra's body to boil water...
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I'm guessing ITR thought early harass wouldn't work on Cool, and Cool did say that there was no way he'd lose to a Terran that went for a fast rax. It's true that Zerg is remarkably vulnerable in the beginning, especially after a fast hatchery, but it looks like Cool managed to figure out a solution for that weakness.
The only problem is, is it feasible for us average players to do what Cool did?
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On October 04 2010 21:31 sylverfyre wrote:
Thors can kill ultras.. at a 3-2 ratio? When they're the same cost and supply? How is that useful for terran. Thors do well against ultras when you have choke points to work with, but it looks like the Terran-favoredness of Delta Quadrant is also ultralisk favored because it's so wide and open.
Marauders deal with ultralisks better than thors - but even then, splash and supply limits make it difficult to handle large numbers of them, especially on open ground.
I'm also really surprised at the lack of marine-hellion pushes leading into thor dropping instead of tank dropping on ledges above expansions. I feel like HopeTorture has great game sense but needs some more build orders.
Anti-air + range + repairable + earlier/easier to achieve tech + still pwn ultras in mass?
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EPT
