EPTOn October 03 2010 07:43 Immersion_ wrote:
...but so many people have such set in stone opinions one way or the other.
...but so many people have such set in stone opinions one way or the other.
And we wonder why American politics are failing.
Fruitseller (Cool) may change his race in GSL #2 - Page 86
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forgotten0ne
United States951 Posts
And we wonder why American politics are failing. | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On October 03 2010 07:43 Immersion_ wrote: I thought it was interesting Cools comment about ZvT, do you think he implied it was balanced or that he personally was just amazing at it? From a perhaps ignorant standpoint, I feel TvP is close to balanced and so is ZvT, though each varying a little according to the stage in the game. ZvP like cool says is a bit brutal however. I do feel all this anti Terran whine has become a bit of a bandwagon since Beta though, as many Terran units are by nature very frustrating to play against. Again, ITR didn't play amazing though, so it's hard to tell, from my perspective it feels and always has felt difficult to decide about ZvT as a whole, esp since Reaper and bunker nerf, but so many people have such set in stone opinions one way or the other. None of the MU are balanced, all the late-game are terribly imbalanced. P > T lategame Z >> T & P lategame As the game isn't figured out, people can get wins with all sorts of cheese and timing pushs/drops even though most of these strats don't make much sense and entirely rely on your opponent's mistake, but you will realize how terribly imbalanced the game is when most of the games are going to end up after the 20th min mark. I'm a random diamond player btw. | ||
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
On October 03 2010 06:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: just fyi: Cool outplayed rainbow by a gigantic margin during the final. Cool was magnitudes ahead in terms of talent between the two in brood war; rainbow is a fan favourite but he was always pretty bad whereas Cool was viewed as 'the next big zerg' before estro culture destroyed him and he never got anywhere ^ This. Can we just sticky this response, along with ZVT is broken and close this thread? Really.. Z being underpowered is a fact now. It shouldn't even be up for a debate anymore. | ||
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Immersion_
United Kingdom794 Posts
On October 03 2010 07:51 TeWy wrote: None of the MU are balanced, all the late-game are terribly imbalanced. P > T lategame Z >> T & P lategame As the game isn't figured out, people can get wins with all sorts of cheese and timing pushs/drops even though most of these strats don't make much sense and entirely rely on your opponent's mistake, but you will realize how terribly imbalanced the game is when most of the games are going to end up after the 20th min mark. I'm a random diamond player btw. I think terribly is pushing it, although funnily enough I'm also a Random Diamond player and I think we are worst qualified of anyone to comment on late game for any given matchup  . | ||
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airety
United States63 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + LaLush: "gg takes a korean for proper zvt" after losing to Select 3-0 This thread needs to realize Cool beat ITR. Not Zerg beat Terran. One series does not make "everything ok." What we saw is that if you don't punish zerg early game, they will stomp you late game. Perhaps zerg is underpowered early, but overpowered late. It is difficult to tell because Cool played flawlessly and ITR simply did not. We'll learn more about the balance of the game at the high end in GSL 2, and GSL 3, and then in leagues. | ||
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
I don't think racial balances have anything to do with this finals, Cool was the way better player. | ||
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wxwx
527 Posts
On October 03 2010 07:33 Polarn wrote: Even if one person won one tournament because he is spectacularly good, doesn't mean that the game is balanced for anyone else. If cool were to learn terran and play himself, then maybe we could get some kind of gauge on top-level performance. But rainbow's play wasn't really up there with cool at all imo. Yea the game must be imbalanced with a zerg winning the biggest tournament with the highest prize pool, by a huge margin. I don't understand why zergs can't accept that although their race is difficult at lower levels, it becomes the strongest when mastered... I would be so willing to embrace this if it were my race. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
On October 03 2010 07:57 airety wrote: Spoiler from today's TLO: + Show Spoiler + LaLush: "gg takes a korean for proper zvt" after losing to Select 3-0 This thread needs to realize Cool beat ITR. Not Zerg beat Terran. One series does not make "everything ok." What we saw is that if you don't punish zerg early game, they will stomp you late game. Perhaps zerg is underpowered early, but overpowered late. It is difficult to tell because Cool played flawlessly and ITR simply did not. We'll learn more about the balance of the game at the high end in GSL 2, and GSL 3, and then in leagues. Have you watched any of Lalush's games? He rages everygame even after he has a clear advantage and loses it due to bad decision making. It happened last weekend too in that tournament he was in, to Naama?.. raged hardcore about zerg being so weak then too rofl. He is your typical zerg, doing the same horrible decision making and losing games and then blaming it on zerg imbalance.. When people like Cool just go out there and play smart, and look at the results? What we saw this morning, is that if a zerg is smart, he can overcome any terran push early and win the game. ITR played as well as he could of vs a zerg who actually plays the game instead of spends all day crying, i dont think ITR would of been able to do any better on any other given day vs Cool. This is because he has no one to practice with that is on the level of Cool, because most other zergs just cry all day instead of actually trying to improve their play. What we saw from Cool today is the future of SC2, which will be as one-sided as the savior era of BW. Zerg is downright scary when used properly, its just unfortunate all the "top" zergs rather complain on forums for hours everyday instead of working on strats to win. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
On October 03 2010 08:01 wxwx wrote: Yea the game must be imbalanced with a zerg winning the biggest tournament with the highest prize pool, by a huge margin. I don't understand why zergs can't accept that although their race is difficult at lower levels, it becomes the strongest when mastered... I would be so willing to embrace this if it were my race. Exactly right. Zerg is going to be even stronger in SC2 than it is in BW, once people learn how to play it properly. Sure, creep spreading and perfect larva injecting is hard for lower level players, but once you learn how to play it, its downright scary. | ||
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Vei
United States2845 Posts
[What we saw this morning, is that if a zerg is smart, he can overcome any terran push early and win the game sorry, no. play some zerg in ladder and get back to me. there is TOO much variation in what terran can do early/mid-game push/harass wise, and TOO little way to scout it. | ||
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lu_cid
United States428 Posts
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
IdrA, Artosis, Cool, Dimaga, Lalush are all complaining. They are top players and I think they know what they are talking about. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
I think in a few months people will get more used to Zerg. In BW Zerg was a wierd race to learn, due to its mechanics. Nothings changed. Once you get used to it its fine. | ||
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ooglyboogly
United States6 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + And in the final ITR did nearly the same build everytime, but one of the ZvT matchup iimbalances is due to the numerous harass/opening/push options they have. By committing to the same build each time ITR neutralized one of Terran's greatest strength imo. The final game is when he finally did something to counter the hatch first Cool has been going but Cool simply outplayed him especially that sick smoke ling ambush. | ||
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clusen
Germany8702 Posts
On October 03 2010 08:05 Skyze wrote: + Show Spoiler + What we saw this morning, is that if a zerg is smart, he can overcome any terran push early and win the game. ITR played as well as he could of vs a zerg who actually plays the game instead of spends all day crying, i dont think ITR would of been able to do any better on any other given day vs Cool. This is because he has no one to practice with that is on the level of Cool, because most other zergs just cry all day instead of actually trying to improve their play. What we saw from Cool today is the future of SC2, which will be as one-sided as the savior era of BW. Zerg is downright scary when used properly, its just unfortunate all the "top" zergs rather complain on forums for hours everyday instead of working on strats to win. What we saw was Cool playing much better than ITR and nothing else. What makes you think that both players played their absolute best(well, atleast Cool did, I guess we agree on that :p)? Don't you think that the insane pricemoney can make players nervous, especially after losing quite hard on a T favored map? I agree to some extent: Zerg can get really scary, when you let them. And ITR did let that happen imo. Not a single Banshee, only 1 Hellion, a really bad executed proxy reaper, losing to a Nydus directly next to your buildings - I would not try to draw conclusions about the future of SC2 based on that single series. And Cool himself is still complaining :p € @ Raiden X I pretty much agree with the things you point out as bad for Zerg in TvZ. If the Terran lets you get into lategame without hurting you Z is very strong. | ||
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
On October 03 2010 06:55 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: just fyi: Cool outplayed rainbow by a gigantic margin during the final. Cool was magnitudes ahead in terms of talent between the two in brood war; rainbow is a fan favourite but he was always pretty bad whereas Cool was viewed as 'the next big zerg' before estro culture destroyed him and he never got anywhere I STRONGLY disagree, there have been better up-and-coming zergs over the years, most of them much more talented than cool, and almost all of them have put better results than him (not difficult), good or bad team culture aside and to say rainbow was pretty bad is just false, his macro was lacking we all know that but he was nothing near bad at all, remember that some players with equally terrible macro have done pretty well too (not that consistently qualifying for starleagues like rainbow is bad) i do agree anyway that in GSL cool outclassed him, can't deny that | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On October 03 2010 07:57 airety wrote: Spoiler from today's TLO: + Show Spoiler + LaLush: "gg takes a korean for proper zvt" after losing to Select 3-0 This thread needs to realize Cool beat ITR. Not Zerg beat Terran. One series does not make "everything ok." What we saw is that if you don't punish zerg early game, they will stomp you late game. Perhaps zerg is underpowered early, but overpowered late. It is difficult to tell because Cool played flawlessly and ITR simply did not. We'll learn more about the balance of the game at the high end in GSL 2, and GSL 3, and then in leagues. Ah double standards. | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
Games 2 and 3 he tried the exact same fail cliff tank. It was called "turbo newb" in SC:BW. As soon as his gimmick drop strategy failed the games were over. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On October 03 2010 08:08 lu_cid wrote: While the result of the tournament doesn't prove anything, it does raise some questions. As we all know, the true balance of the game is revealed only by the tip top level players. Balance means more than "if both races are played perfectly who wins". People need to stop that crap argument. Since no-one can actually play perfectly that is completely irrelevant. It's about options to win. If Terran is incredibly easy and with 50APM you can beat any Zerg with <300 APM that is a balance problem. If Terran has 10 options to win with deceptive cheese whilst Zerg has 0, that is a balance problem. If Zerg mid-late game macro is overpowered that is also a problem. If the ZvT matchup is about Zerg defending against overpowered cheese, then if it fails waiting 10 minutes and winning with overpowered macro, that is a balance problem. It's ludicrious for a 50APM terrible Terran to win 10 times versus a 250APM Zerg and turn round and say "game is balanced you should just play better, it's fine at pro level". And FakeSteve is right. ITR played absolutely horribly. IdrA would've beaten him today with ease. | ||
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pookychoo
New Zealand96 Posts
Knew those were coming if Cool won, but its still worth it to have seen him earn the win. The guy is such a beast. | ||
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