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On September 24 2010 00:54 aseq wrote:
I would have thought that by now, Blizzard would have made a feature in the editor (even if only for internal use) that allows you to draw a part of the map and copy-rotate the terrain a number of times. Afterwards, they can add cosmetic changes and doodads, but it would ensure the maps are practically the same for every starting position.
I know! There are symmetry tools in 3rd party brood war editors that are years and years and years old. I can't believe they didn't put any in the galaxy editor. It would let map makers make better maps in many fewer hours.
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why dont we see more tournaments with custom maps. I wouldnt mind playing only custom games with them instead of ladder. That way i would also care less about my score, plus only good players would probably play since all the noobies playing custom games would play only on the blizzard maps. Not to mention, better games on sweeter bigger maps.
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Those games on ICCUP were great. They really should promote those maps, and "community active" players like Demuslim, Day 9, Morrow should help on this.
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I agree, blizzards maps are subpar compared to many of the custom maps out there right now. The sooner people start using them, the better and more fun the game will be.
Stuff like this isnt a certain race whining about imbalance, its just a flaw with the map that needs to be fixed.
Blizzard's perfect map consists of each player starting on opposite sides, with 1 worker. The spot where their main should be is replaced instead by rocks, which their worker must destroy at the start of each game. After this is completed, they can build their main. The path to their opponents base is blocked by no less than 13 sets of rocks. There is only one expansion, and rocks cover each individual mineral patch. In game music is replaced by rock music. In patch 1.2 rocks also receive a significant armor buff, and do damage back.
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Didn't want to make a new thread for it so I wanted to bring this to light as well.
On LT at the 12:00 spawn location, as zerg, your overlord always spawns exactly on top of your hatchery. I misclick the overlord all the time, sometimes the overlord even blends in so well that I forget to move him lol.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ZrCdb.jpg)
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On September 26 2010 07:12 tackklee wrote:Didn't want to make a new thread for it so I wanted to bring this to light as well. On LT at the 12:00 spawn location, as zerg, your overlord always spawns exactly on top of your hatchery. I misclick the overlord all the time, sometimes the overlord even blends in so well that I forget to move him lol.
Omfg I hate that more than anything. I think LT is the only map that has that problem too. I really don't get why blizzard makes such bad maps.
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On September 23 2010 09:11 SichuanPanda wrote:
I think what would solve all the problems is a league above Diamond for high-level play, featuring a high-level map list. Lower level players would have the standard Blizzard map-set, while the league above Diamond (Pro League for example sake) would feature either custom designed maps by Blizzard noting community suggestions, or even better ICCUP style maps, obviously with the features of SC2 maps - but tailored for high-level play, and also not heavily rewarding to rush play.
The Pro League if implemented should be 'optional' in that when you get promoted out of Diamond into Pro League you get a message saying 'Congratulations you have been promoted to Pro League. This league features a different map set, designed for high-level play, and also and ELO ranking system (i.e. no divisions). Are you sure you want to play in this league?'.
This would solve the issue with Blizzard not wanting to implement higher level maps for the sake of the 'average player'. This way people who don't feel comfortable playing at a very high-level, and want to stay in Diamond forever are perfectly welcome to do so. Once promoted you can opt-in later to the league at any time, provided your hidden rank hasn't dropped below Pro League level since you originally declined.
Thoughts on this idea? I know its been mentioned before, but with the maps as evidence, there may actually be a solid amount of data for Blizzard to conclude such a league is needed.
So what's wrong with allowing "non pro leaguers" access to these "high-level maps"? @.@
I'm sure that a lot of people would want to play on those maps too along with the current map pool while pro leaguers can play exclusively on their high-level maps.
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On September 26 2010 07:12 tackklee wrote:Didn't want to make a new thread for it so I wanted to bring this to light as well. On LT at the 12:00 spawn location, as zerg, your overlord always spawns exactly on top of your hatchery. I misclick the overlord all the time, sometimes the overlord even blends in so well that I forget to move him lol.
Reason #1907108956016805619865081601105658061506508 Blizzard sucks at map making.
Ugh when will people stop using these terrible, terrible maps  ?
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All the people bashing blizzard maps..
You realize that the Kespa/ICCUP maps also have sways in them to which favor races/builds etc that's just how maps work.. I mean theres a ton of maps in the Kespa pool that favor T v Z and Jaedong landed a lot of them in the OSL
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On September 26 2010 08:08 Xunaka wrote:
All the people bashing blizzard maps..
You realize that the Kespa/ICCUP maps also have sways in them to which favor races/builds etc that's just how maps work.. I mean theres a ton of maps in the Kespa pool that favor T v Z and Jaedong landed a lot of them in the OSL
Yea NO WHERE near the same imbalance as Blizz maps.
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On September 26 2010 08:08 Xunaka wrote:
All the people bashing blizzard maps..
You realize that the Kespa/ICCUP maps also have sways in them to which favor races/builds etc that's just how maps work.. I mean theres a ton of maps in the Kespa pool that favor T v Z and Jaedong landed a lot of them in the OSL
People aren't bashing maps for being imbalanced. Having imbalanced maps in a larger map pool is fine. It's that they are so poorly made and the imbalance is not spread across multiple matchups. Making a map pool is very delicate. A mixture of imbalanced the standard balanced maps normally make for a very exciting series. Having players play a heavy TvZ map then balanced TvZ then heavy ZvT map is far more exciting than TvZ/TvZ/TvZ...
The main issue is how poorly made maps are.
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Are there any other positional imbalances on Scrap Station, or is it only the two issues posted in the OP?
I'd like to get a complete list of every single problem this map has, if possible. For research!
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Imbalances such as these are endemic to the way Blizzard approaches mapmaking. A Blizzard mapmaker, no matter how talented he might be, only has one chance to publish his map and any imbalances that come to light after that are usually left in place. Blizzard occasionally does a map revamp, but those are rare and tend to only change one specific thing - for example adding destructible rocks. I think Blizzard's mapmakers are great really, so far I've maybe seen just a few community maps that come close to Blizzard's just for refinement, but for maps used in competitive play being pretty and conceptually interesting isn't enough. In those cases the only thing that works is, say, Blizzard's actual approach to game balance: commitment to continously change the game (map) until it is satisfactory; something that might never happen but is always the goal.
Another important systemic cause for possibly less good Blizzard maps is that they're created to appeal to players of all skill levels. The practice league maps with destructible rocks are obviously just gimmicks, in reality most of the maps are made with the low level player in mind. Expanding is hard (low level players dislike expanding because it is so much trouble to manage two bases), maps are small (games will be short, so you don't have to commit too much to one game). The only real solution to this is to have a different mappool for diamond/platinum than you have for bronze/silver/gold. This lets you introduce complexer and larger maps for the better gamers. As long as you can thumb maps down having a few larger maps in the diamond ladder pool is hardly a bad thing. If people really dislike playing on them they can vote them down. Too bad that couldn't happen with the current mappool though: some of the maps are so imbalanced against zerg that I just have to thumb them down -- playing as ZvT on lost temple is just something I don't want to do too often. Ideally Blizzard would have removed them by now and tried some other maps.
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Glad someone finally made a post about this (may have been an earlier one I didn't see). I noticed this in BETA and I am sure any one who plays zerg extensively noticed this. The left base in scrapstation is MUCH better for zerg then the right, in ZvZ this is exacerbated even more.
Something that should be fixed for sure.
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I abuse the left-side position in ZvZ on Scrap all the time and, from what I can recall, have won all of those games. Patch the map or, better yet, replace it with ICCUP maps
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Didn't want to make a new thread about this so i'll just post it here, but i think Delta Quadrant is ridiculously imbalanced... If you spawn close position, the farthest away clockwise has such an advantage because he his able to expand AWAY from his opponent. He can abuse those high ground cliffs which are close to his base and it seems impossible to defend the natural...
![[image loading]](http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/5254/deltaquadrant.png)
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This should be fixed and adressed ! We should allow some of the ICCup maps to be in the ladder map pack ! Agree?
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On September 26 2010 08:01 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 07:12 tackklee wrote:Didn't want to make a new thread for it so I wanted to bring this to light as well. On LT at the 12:00 spawn location, as zerg, your overlord always spawns exactly on top of your hatchery. I misclick the overlord all the time, sometimes the overlord even blends in so well that I forget to move him lol. Reason #1907108956016805619865081601105658061506508 Blizzard sucks at map making. Ugh when will people stop using these terrible, terrible maps ?
Don't forget the Problem if you start like this as Zerg, the way to walk for your drones is longer sometimes if the eggs are far away from the minerals. That sucks also.
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well this is a huge map imbalance, not fair to lose based on base design not even location, didnt realize till it was pointed out that the bases are alot different shapes and size not fair :/
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hmm interesting... they should take a look at this
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EPT
