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United States7166 Posts
the left position is so much better than the right for zerg, because the creep extends right up to the ramp while the other position is considerably further (enough that spine crawlers on the right cant effectively cover the ramp
Left starting base:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UJ3lD.jpg)
Right starting base:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9Pc6l.jpg)
in zvz especially this is a big deal, as the left side has a much much easier time defending/killing banelings that try to sneak by, while the right side is quite vulnerable to banelings sneaking around. And in general it's just much better/easier for defending your ramp.
also another better effect the left base has is that it only takes 1 creep tumor spread to get down the ramp, while on the right you have to make an extra tumor, just so you can scooch over a couple hexes as it cannot reach down below the ramp
On September 23 2010 08:03 GoSu] wrote:
Also on Scrap Station, the choke leading to the third expansion has issues.
The top left player's choke is much larger than the bottom right player's. Certain FE strategies cannot be done if you spawn top left.
apparently you can easily wall off your choke with 2 buildings at the bottom choke but not the top one. and apparently these sorts of imbalances are a common occurrence in the ladder maps
So please fix it so that theyre equally as close as the left or as far as the right, either one i dont care as long as it's even.
___________________
A map issue posted long ago in beta regarding the imbalance of gas geyser positioning:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123692
Every time i make my first geyser in every game i always try to pick the one closest to horizontal/vertical from my hatch, unfortunately not all starting locations have balanced gas geysers. i remember one time i forgot and made a diagonally located gas kulas ravine and my gas was noticeably lower/slower
___________________
as someone kindly reminded me, this imbalance also exists on Xel'Naga Caverns (most annoyingly the creep tumor spreading)
Note the radius indicators:
Top starting base:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/5JUDJ.jpg)
Bottom starting base:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/vhiqz.jpg)
as you can see by the radius indicator, the top base is guaranteed to get at least 1 shot off no matter how close they hug the wall, while the bottom base you can hug the wall and not get hit fairly comfortably.
you may think, what does that tiny bit matter? well when running pairs of banelings into enemy base (you dont want to have them all clumped or 2 enemy banelings can blow them all up).. 1 crawler constantly poking them as they walk in and the other not being able to reach any at all.. it matters.
And once again the creep tumor imbalance exists here too, it's really annoying. The top base you can spread a tumor below the ramp(both to the west and to the north) with the first spread, but the bottom base is too far so you have to make a tumor just a few hexes over, just so you can spread it down the ramp..making it take at least 30 seconds longer just to spread to about the same place the top base can get to with 1 tumor spread
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On September 23 2010 08:36 Alsn wrote:
There are a bunch of team maps where the spawn locations are bugged as well(ie, your main building is one hex too far away from your starting minerals). The 2v2 map Tempest has the top-mid leftmost spawn misplaced one hex to the east. As well as the 3v3 map Colony 426 where the bottom spawn location is misplaced one hex to the north.
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wow blizzard fails... they should seriously start using iCCup maps.
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This is something that we should really be ramming down Blizzards throats on their own forums.
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That is quite a big deal, I'm surprised that is in the game. It seems like a massive oversight by Blizzard to release a game with this large of a map imbalance let alone leave it in.
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Russian Federation114 Posts
I think Xel'Naga Caverns has the same issue of creep spreading.
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There was also an issue where one side had to use one more creep tumor to get creep to the bottom of the ramp
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The base layout in this map is so different, don't know why it has to be so different. I haven't vetoed this map yet but I constantly think about doing it, the only other map i've vetoed is Desert Oasis.
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Wow, blizzards map-makers goofed. They really should use those iCCup maps (they look pretty cool)
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god this has pissed me off for so long. I die inside everytime i have to make a second tumour on top of my ramp like 2 inches from the original.
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That's a pretty ridiculous map flaw right there.
Remind me again why Blizzard won't let skilled map makers create SC2 maps for ladder?
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i agree that the difference significant, especially in ZvZ as the OP claims.
i always thought that blizz maps were symmetrical. guess not.
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blizzard needs to make iccup makes official...
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My only worry is that instead of fixing the imbalance, they will just take scrap station out of the map pool and replace it with something else.
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I like scrap station it is a interesting map and leads to macro games. I hope they fix this though, it would suck if i won a match because zerg could not properly defend his ramp from a 4gate 
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Yeah Raelcun has been telling me about this for awhile.
Soon people will realize these maps have no business in tournaments.
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The same problem is on steppes of war with the hills on the natural.
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this is exactly the reason y as a zerg player i never play this map cuz it is a joke in zvz or ZvP when u have to spend extra time gettin an extra tumor on the right to get ur spine placements up, and yes that is valuable time that it takes the creep to spread vs a timing 4 gate push ><
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You would think Blizzard would measure distances out and make sure all starting locations are symmetrical. Kind of embarrassing for them if you ask me.
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On September 23 2010 08:01 Mastermind wrote:
You would think Blizzard would measure distances out and make sure all starting locations or symmetrical. Kind of embarrassing for them if you ask me.
Blizzard has made a damn good game but let's be honest, good mapmakers they never have been.
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Also on Scrap Station, the choke leading to the third expansion has issues.
The top left player's choke is much larger than the bottom right player's. Certain FE strategies cannot be done if you spawn top left.
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Community, time to use CUSTOM MAPS !!
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lol why you post this HERE?
blizzard have a forum for something i guess.
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On September 23 2010 08:08 Mutaahh wrote:
Community, time to use CUSTOM MAPS !!
I kinda wish they would abolish the whole ladder system so people would play on real maps
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How could blizzard have missed this? Aren't they supposed to test like at least a 100 games for each matchup on every map?
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Wow I never noticed this really until now, but after you said it, I do kind of remember it being harder to spread the creep on the right/bottom spawn on Scrap Station.
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There are actually tons and tons of these little imbalances in all maps in the map pool.
For instance on steppes of war the top starting position is considerably worse for toss wall in vs banes then the bottom. On the bottom you can put 1 zeal 2 spaces behind another to form a wall that needs two sets of banes to bust. On the top however that is not possible because there is a grove that allows lings a massive hole to run around if the front zeal dies.
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Theres failures like this on pretty much every single ladder map, way to go blizz map making team!
This is true imbalance :p
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Kinda weird actually that this sorta imbalances can come from blizzard. I remember them saying that on of their map requirements is that both sides mirrors each other. I don't care if they want to make some tweaks that the sides don't look too copy&pasted but these that affect balance should be changed :f
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Expect them to add more rocks in the next patch, that's the Blizzard way of balancing SC2 maps.
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United States7166 Posts
i think kulas ravine could use a few more rocks. it is a ravine after all, and lore is pretty important if you ask me
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Do not forget that the chokes past the destructible rocks right before your 3rd natural on Scrap Station are incredibly different from left to right. Right can easily be walled off with two buildings, left cannot. Things like that exist in many of the maps currently in rotation.
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On September 23 2010 08:03 GoSu] wrote:
Also on Scrap Station, the choke leading to the third expansion has issues.
The top left player's choke is much larger than the bottom right player's. Certain FE strategies cannot be done if you spawn top left.
Ah my bad, didn't see that he posted this first.
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tbh i never noticed...
pretty big deal though
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Just here to bump and point out that this is a huge fucking deal. Must. be. fixed.
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Scrap station really is pretty imbalanced, and not just with regard to main sizes, but mineral in mains, range of nats to the destructable debris...
Symetrical maps are the easiest to get right... and its been like this since the beta patch where they added the debris. =/
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On September 23 2010 08:10 RoMarX wrote:
lol why you post this HERE?
blizzard have a forum for something i guess.
They probably read these forums more than their own. Have you SEEN their forums?
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United States7166 Posts
On September 23 2010 08:22 Crushgroove wrote:
Scrap station really is pretty imbalanced, and not just with regard to main sizes, but mineral in mains, range of nats to the destructable debris...
can you elaborate on this a bit more specifically please
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Another one of these threads today? Again I don't really look for these sort of things but sometimes you just feel or prefer a position without even noticing the advantages it has. Blizzard should really hire some professional map makers like Kespa. I mean blizzard obviously wants sc2 to become a professional game and with these kinds of maps I don't really see it going to far, I see it more being like a WC3 E-Sport than a SC E-Sport in terms of popularity.
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I don't understand how things like this get past in development. It's not like each side has it's own tiny advantages, it's just one side being at a disadvantage almost all the time.
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I have a sort of off topic question for you guys but..
I have played around 240 matches, and of all the scrap station matches, I have only been in the left position about 1-2 times out of about 30-40 o_0
Anyone know why this is? ><
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There are a bunch of team maps where the spawn locations are bugged as well(ie, your main building is one hex too far away from your starting minerals). The 2v2 map Tempest has the top-mid leftmost spawn misplaced one hex to the east. As well as the 3v3 map Colony 426 where the bottom spawn location is misplaced one hex to the north.
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actually agreed that it is indeed a big deal. creep gives zerg a huge advantage, and if one spawn can spread naturally further than the other then it needs a fix!!
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On September 23 2010 08:36 Alsn wrote:
There are a bunch of team maps where the spawn locations are bugged as well(ie, your main building is one hex too far away from your starting minerals). The 2v2 map Tempest has the top-mid leftmost spawn misplaced one hex to the east. As well as the 3v3 map Colony 426 where the bottom spawn location is misplaced one hex to the north.
wow blizzard really really really needs to hire some professional map makers
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These starting position problems (especially on Scrap Station) are pretty significant, IMO.
Why haven't they been brought up before? Or have threads about them been forced to the bottom of the pile by people complaining about unit/race imbalances?
I feel like Blizzard had more than enough beta resets to fix these map problems, especially on Scrap Station...
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This should not be a problem at least for non ladder games (perhaps cup games). If you are ZvZ @ Scrap Station you can always blame lag and regame to get your left position.
Tips how to sound credible
1st try : Play 10-15 seconds then blame lag and leave game
2nd try : pull cable out (unless you can convince you still have something happening with your comp)
3rd try : This time I would just play whatever position you will get
To get opponent happy remember to say "Looks like it lags only little" when you are happy with position to get some kind of agreement from opponent 
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United States7166 Posts
please guys continue to bring up more map problems/imbalances, i know there's got to be more
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On September 23 2010 08:01 Mastermind wrote:
You would think Blizzard would measure distances out and make sure all starting locations are symmetrical. Kind of embarrassing for them if you ask me.
They dont care. They care about unit balance, they have never released a good map, those have always come from the community.
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I think what would solve all the problems is a league above Diamond for high-level play, featuring a high-level map list. Lower level players would have the standard Blizzard map-set, while the league above Diamond (Pro League for example sake) would feature either custom designed maps by Blizzard noting community suggestions, or even better ICCUP style maps, obviously with the features of SC2 maps - but tailored for high-level play, and also not heavily rewarding to rush play.
The Pro League if implemented should be 'optional' in that when you get promoted out of Diamond into Pro League you get a message saying 'Congratulations you have been promoted to Pro League. This league features a different map set, designed for high-level play, and also and ELO ranking system (i.e. no divisions). Are you sure you want to play in this league?'.
This would solve the issue with Blizzard not wanting to implement higher level maps for the sake of the 'average player'. This way people who don't feel comfortable playing at a very high-level, and want to stay in Diamond forever are perfectly welcome to do so. Once promoted you can opt-in later to the league at any time, provided your hidden rank hasn't dropped below Pro League level since you originally declined.
Thoughts on this idea? I know its been mentioned before, but with the maps as evidence, there may actually be a solid amount of data for Blizzard to conclude such a league is needed.
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On September 23 2010 08:03 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 08:01 Mastermind wrote:
You would think Blizzard would measure distances out and make sure all starting locations or symmetrical. Kind of embarrassing for them if you ask me. Blizzard has made a damn good game but let's be honest, good mapmakers they never have been.
qft
im gonna agree with the general consensus that the iccup maps should be used more in competitive play and probably added to the ladder map pool too
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holy shit thats huge
zelniq so pro @_@
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8748 Posts
On September 23 2010 08:26 Sworn wrote:
Blizzard should really hire some professional map makers like Kespa.
I'm sure whoever made Blizzard's maps is getting paid to make the maps. These aren't terrible maps but KeSPA has been pretty good about fixing maps quickly and that's going to be the difference. How long will it take Blizzard to fix their maps?
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Canada202 Posts
The creep issue feels present to me on pretty much every map.
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8748 Posts
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Right now we are here.
I really hope Blizzard can do the right thing, swallow their pride and let us get on the road to here soon.
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metalopolis 6 o'clock ramp is way closers to your minerals than the other starting locations.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/wV66c.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/8DrU1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/hCslu.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/NU4hX.jpg)
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I've always hated the bottem base as Z because it takes 2 creep tumors to even get creep down the ramp while the other base is just 1 so it's much faster to set up spines for a FE
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These are changes that can be made very easily..post on Blizzard forums and get discussion going there. Online game play allows for patching when needed..which in this case it is.
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Damn, I always assumed blizzard just made these maps perfectly symmetrical.
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well, maybe u can make different BOs in different starting points or just try different things than banelings.. but u r right, map sucks XD
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As a Terran I don't mind if other races have to deal with better or worse sim city based on map position, because I have to deal with it all the time with addons. Seems fair enough to me.
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On September 23 2010 07:48 Ketara wrote:
This is something that we should really be ramming down Blizzards throats on their own forums.
Everyones such a dick to blizzard, even though they made like pretty much the greatest game ever.
Still though, you'd think ol David Kim would notice...
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daaaaaaaamn there is some smart people out there...
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zelniq knows what hes talking about, and yes, these have been there forever and discussed about before but blizzard hasnt done a damn thing...
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wow this is really unacceptable
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Just checked "War zone", 2v2 map. Seems that the top centre expo was fixed this patch, drones used to screw up mining by going behind and around the gas for some reason. Tried as terran and protoss, need to check as zerg.
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this isn't another huge difference but in metalopolis in the *smoke* region in your base i believe only 2 out of the 4 you can actually build a hatch in the smoke.. but its not for all the bases another thing i feel should be fixed not as much as these pointed out but if people base trade and someone builds in smoke could be unfair if it can only be done in some bases and not all.
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This also happens with the bottom position in metalopolis which is insane. I have noticed this in a lot of maps and it should be fixed
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Blistering Sands is awful. The other expansions are so awfully unbalanced. Blizzard needs to work on their maps.
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Metalopolis scouting is imbalanced. The closer to ramp minerals / mains allow the player to mine on the opposite side of minerals closest to ramp and spot any proxy scout.
For instance, you are in bottom left position. opponent want to proxy you. You can mine on the other side of the 2 bototm right minerals and you can spot this scout.
On the 3 o clock position it's extremely easy for someone to scout you rminerals glowing without being seen even if the person mines from the closest to ramp side of mineral patches nearest ramp.
This makes it easier to proxy / scout without being seen against these positions.
err basically, you can counter hidden proxy (+ Show Spoiler +) by mining on the opposite side of certain minerals (to scout for mineral spot), but it is not possible in some positions on metal.
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On September 23 2010 08:24 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 08:10 RoMarX wrote:
lol why you post this HERE?
blizzard have a forum for something i guess. They probably read these forums more than their own. Have you SEEN their forums?
i dont think so, its their job to post in their forums, even if its full of crap. They arent getting paid to enter in Teamliquid, so ask something to blizz here doesnt have any sense.
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That's really depressing to know.
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This is why every time I watch ZvZ on Scrap, left side wins. Almost every time.
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left base way better for protoss wall off imo
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Lost Temple:
Right and Left natural have 4 building squares distance to ramp corner
Top and Bottom natural have 3 building squares distance to ramp corner
this is very important for things like planetary fortress
Basically the placement of each with respect to the ramp is different.
(Simply load up LT with building grid to see). Because LT is probably the best map for PF, this is a pretty big deal as it can mean being able to hit certain units that can hit your ramp wall off. etc
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On September 23 2010 08:36 Alsn wrote:
There are a bunch of team maps where the spawn locations are bugged as well(ie, your main building is one hex too far away from your starting minerals). The 2v2 map Tempest has the top-mid leftmost spawn misplaced one hex to the east. As well as the 3v3 map Colony 426 where the bottom spawn location is misplaced one hex to the north.
Wow, if this is true, I dont even know what to say. That is just so bad.
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The maps are making me feel really unmotivated to play recently. It just feels pointless because they are either we won't be playing them very much longer, or they are going to drag the game down and make it not very fun if we don't get new ones.
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On September 23 2010 10:24 ZapRoffo wrote:
The maps are making me feel really unmotivated to play recently. It just feels pointless because they are either we won't be playing them very much longer, or they are going to drag the game down and make it not very fun if we don't get new ones.
Every interview blizzard has done recently seems to suggest that they won't be adding any community maps anytime soon. If ever.
It really does suck. :/
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Wow, I had absolutely no idea that the maps were so laughably bad and devoid of decent symmetry, this is why the editor should have options to mirror tiles etc like we had back in creation of BW maps.
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I vote scrap station. I dont like this map althought its seems to ballance.
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Blizzard is known for not knowing how to make a balanced map.
We need iccup!
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Diamond is right. Blizzard maps have always been god awful and they still seem to be unaware of their incapacity to produce balanced maps. I honestly think they just don't understand. They probably think it's cool that spawns are different, like it adds flavor or something.
The solution to this is simple - stop playing blizz maps in tournies. When blizz sees $10000 tournaments without a blizzard map in there maybe they'll get the idea.
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theres some other map like that, in 4v4 theres a place where terran can land a barrack on a hill, and kill all scv of another player
and in 2v2 one of the lava map, one need to put only a barrack and a supply depot to block entrance, and everyone else need 3 building at least
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On September 23 2010 10:49 Floophead_III wrote:
Diamond is right. Blizzard maps have always been god awful and they still seem to be unaware of their incapacity to produce balanced maps. I honestly think they just don't understand. They probably think it's cool that spawns are different, like it adds flavor or something.
The solution to this is simple - stop playing blizz maps in tournies. When blizz sees $10000 tournaments without a blizzard map in there maybe they'll get the idea.
Kind of like all the Broodwar tourneys that exclusively feature user made maps? Blizzard wants to dumb the maps down for the average gamer, and we can't really expect to blame them for that. The competitive Starcraft II community makes up a small percentage of all those who play SC2.
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Not only that, but the layout of the bases on a lot of maps makes hiding a Jurisdictional worm significantly easier. For instance, its a lot easier to hide one on the left spawn on Scrap Station, because of that little peninsula to the west.
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On September 23 2010 10:53 frog HERO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 10:49 Floophead_III wrote:
Diamond is right. Blizzard maps have always been god awful and they still seem to be unaware of their incapacity to produce balanced maps. I honestly think they just don't understand. They probably think it's cool that spawns are different, like it adds flavor or something.
The solution to this is simple - stop playing blizz maps in tournies. When blizz sees $10000 tournaments without a blizzard map in there maybe they'll get the idea. Kind of like all the Broodwar tourneys that exclusively feature user made maps? Blizzard wants to dumb the maps down for the average gamer, and we can't really expect to blame them for that. The competitive Starcraft II community makes up a small percentage of all those who play SC2.
Blizz has said they dont want difficult maps because of beginners, but several of the maps in the map pool directly contradict that. DO and kulas are much more difficult maps then what the community wants in the map pool.
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I think those are actually kinda okay once you get used to it. The rocks actually make DO worse because people will hide proxies on the other side of the rocks....
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If you forge fe pvz on blistering sands and they try to break down your backdoor with lings its much harder to both scout and have a reasonable wall off on top position.
The spacing between the rocks and the bushes is quite a bit different.
You can't have a spotter pylon and then add 2 gateway sized buildings and a cannon to damage the lings and you have to complete your wall off with units.
Of course if there is a better way I'd like to know
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/JagOK.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/0cZlH.jpg)
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United States7166 Posts
yeah i remember reading once from a blizz developer that the reason why they dont have any maps with wide open areas is because they dont want to introduce maps with advanced features or that it would somehow make maps more difficult for newer players to play on
which makes almost no sense to me..not only is it not difficult to play on maps with wide areas but why would they design their maps around the beginner..that's what novice maps are for
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Another thing I would consider imba is the add-on wall of.
On blistering sands, Terran can wall off with an addon and a depot (with rax ofc) on the lower position.
On the top they cant. This is pretty big if facing a 6pool, for example.
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On September 23 2010 11:46 darthcaesar wrote:
Another thing I would consider imba is the add-on wall of.
On blistering sands, Terran can wall off with an addon and a depot (with rax ofc) on the lower position.
On the top they cant. This is pretty big if facing a 6pool, for example.
On the top of blistering sands you can wall off with one Rax and an addon at the base of the ramp :D
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You have no idea how badly I want ICCUP Matchpoint to be a ladder map.
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On September 23 2010 11:46 darthcaesar wrote:
Another thing I would consider imba is the add-on wall of.
On blistering sands, Terran can wall off with an addon and a depot (with rax ofc) on the lower position.
On the top they cant. This is pretty big if facing a 6pool, for example.
OFC?
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On September 23 2010 11:51 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 11:46 darthcaesar wrote:
Another thing I would consider imba is the add-on wall of.
On blistering sands, Terran can wall off with an addon and a depot (with rax ofc) on the lower position.
On the top they cant. This is pretty big if facing a 6pool, for example. OFC?
ofcourse.
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On September 23 2010 11:49 Cofo wrote:
You have no idea how badly I want ICCUP Matchpoint to be a ladder map.
Agreed, add on Fighting Spirit, and I'd cream my pants.
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I will go ahead and vote as well that I was reluctant to make iCCup maps standard until I played them the other day. They're pretty damn good.
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tournaments should definitely be moving to custom maps as soon as possible. thorough testing or not theyll be better than the blizz maps, which certainly havent been tested with balance and game quality in mind.
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For terran, it would be nice if all ramps faced the same direction and all positions had identical sim-city with add-ons.
But because that is ludicrous, it would be even nicer if add-ons could be placed on either side of a building.
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On September 23 2010 12:38 IdrA wrote:
tournaments should definitely be moving to custom maps as soon as possible. thorough testing or not theyll be better than the blizz maps, which certainly havent been tested with balance and game quality in mind.
<3
Could not have said it better myself !
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Hello guys, this is my first post. I am pretty new to Starcraft 2, a mid to low level gold protoss player, and want to thank all of you on TeamLiquid because I've been reading this since I've gotten the game (about 3 weeks) and it has helped me out immensely.
On topic, I have noticed as that some spawn positions are more difficult to wall off then others, but I had no idea that the map imbalances were as large as shown here. This seems like very sloppy map making and I believe what many have written that blizzard is not very good at making maps.
If I can ask a little different question, many of you mentioned ICCUP maps. I was wondering since I have never played Starcraft 1, well, I have but I was like 10 years old and didnt understand a thing, what makes a good map, other then the obvious that all spawn locations are equal and without the major flaws shown here. Are there any of the 1v1 maps in the game that are "good" maps?
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Here's a partial solution : maybe a mapmaker can fix these positional imbalances and the community start using these perfectly balanced custom maps in tournaments like TL SC Open, HDH invitational, iCCup events, MLG, etc.This might sway Blizzard to make the necessary changes eventually.
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On September 23 2010 12:41 TCVeritas wrote:
Are there any of the 1v1 maps in the game that are "good" maps?
XelNaga Caverns is well-regarded, even though I find it completely boring and dull.
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Blizzard makes excellent games, but their maps have never been quite as good.
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On September 23 2010 12:41 ptell wrote:
Here's a partial solution : maybe a mapmaker can fix these positional imbalances and the community start using these perfectly balanced custom maps in tournaments like TL SC Open, HDH invitational, iCCup events, MLG, etc.This might sway Blizzard to make the necessary changes eventually.
You have to be aware that it's not as easy as you think. Blizzard controls the maps because playing those maps is where it counts, and you have to play those for points. It means players have to learn other maps when they will rarely play on them.
And actually players will not know the special tricks on maps until they study it alot, so those maps need to be added to ladder so they start being used.
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On September 23 2010 12:46 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 12:41 ptell wrote:
Here's a partial solution : maybe a mapmaker can fix these positional imbalances and the community start using these perfectly balanced custom maps in tournaments like TL SC Open, HDH invitational, iCCup events, MLG, etc.This might sway Blizzard to make the necessary changes eventually. You have to be aware that it's not as easy as you think. Blizzard controls the maps because playing those maps is where it counts, and you have to play those for points. It means players have to learn other maps when they will rarely play on them. And actually players will not know the special tricks on maps until they study it alot, so those maps need to be added to ladder so they start being used. Pro players don't learn on the ladder, so no. Where it "matters" is where people are getting paid to win, and the ladder is not that.
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On September 23 2010 12:46 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 12:41 ptell wrote:
Here's a partial solution : maybe a mapmaker can fix these positional imbalances and the community start using these perfectly balanced custom maps in tournaments like TL SC Open, HDH invitational, iCCup events, MLG, etc.This might sway Blizzard to make the necessary changes eventually. You have to be aware that it's not as easy as you think. Blizzard controls the maps because playing those maps is where it counts, and you have to play those for points. It means players have to learn other maps when they will rarely play on them. And actually players will not know the special tricks on maps until they study it alot, so those maps need to be added to ladder so they start being used.
Some tournaments are already incorporating custom maps so I don't really see the problem.
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On September 23 2010 12:42 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 12:41 TCVeritas wrote:
Are there any of the 1v1 maps in the game that are "good" maps? XelNaga Caverns is well-regarded, even though I find it completely boring and dull.
Ah ok thank you. I enjoy XelNaga Caverns myself, because it is a little larger and the game doesn't end within the first 10 min.
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Quality of the game is reduced so that (BLIZZARD THINKS) newbs can play ..
AND HERE I THOUGH SC2 WAS GOING TO BE A GREAT E-SPORT (BLIZZARD THINKS)
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Blizzard and their no mirroring tool in map-editor policy. It's stupid.
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this is a big fail by Blizzard
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Blizzard maps have a history of being positionally imbalanced. Hopefully they fix all the issues brought up in the next patch. Post about it on the Battle.net forums to get their attention.
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These are some pretty serious problems considering they have probably affected thousands of games over time.
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On September 23 2010 12:42 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 12:41 TCVeritas wrote:
Are there any of the 1v1 maps in the game that are "good" maps? XelNaga Caverns is well-regarded, even though I find it completely boring and dull.
Are you crazy?
Xel has a much too wide open natural that is way too far away from the ramp - ever tried defending there with spine crawlers against hellions or any sort of push?
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wow i thought blizzard would check this kind of stuff before they put out a game... didnt notice because i dont play zerg. good call
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this is a pretty huge deal, cant believe it hasnt been highly recognized till now aswell, hopes its fixed soon
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Interesting post OP, I play zerg but failed to notice this, I just went with the flow. The more you know eh?
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On September 23 2010 12:41 ptell wrote:
Here's a partial solution : maybe a mapmaker can fix these positional imbalances and the community start using these perfectly balanced custom maps in tournaments like TL SC Open, HDH invitational, iCCup events, MLG, etc.This might sway Blizzard to make the necessary changes eventually.
Makes sense to me. The changes wouldn't be too difficult.
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And you guys are surprised???
Tho Blizz-made SC2 maps are FAR better than BW maps, they're still pretty shitty... I don't think KeSPA would ever use any of these maps in their tournaments...
=(
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On September 23 2010 12:41 TCVeritas wrote:
Hello guys, this is my first post. I am pretty new to Starcraft 2, a mid to low level gold protoss player, and want to thank all of you on TeamLiquid because I've been reading this since I've gotten the game (about 3 weeks) and it has helped me out immensely.
On topic, I have noticed as that some spawn positions are more difficult to wall off then others, but I had no idea that the map imbalances were as large as shown here. This seems like very sloppy map making and I believe what many have written that blizzard is not very good at making maps.
If I can ask a little different question, many of you mentioned ICCUP maps. I was wondering since I have never played Starcraft 1, well, I have but I was like 10 years old and didnt understand a thing, what makes a good map, other then the obvious that all spawn locations are equal and without the major flaws shown here. Are there any of the 1v1 maps in the game that are "good" maps?
Search iCCup in the custom game interface under map creator.
^_^
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Wow, thats a pretty big imbalance. I can understand its luck of the draw but if your not careful you can simply abuse that exploit in those maps.
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wow that's a big deal... but terran has been crying about their addon positions since day 1... blizzard will probably just shrug it off and put the two in the same category which is "they don't care".
Another one to add, top position on LT has a slightly larger choke on natural expansion compared to the other 3 positions
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I just don't understand Blizzard's obsession with tiny ass maps. They don't really leave a lot of creative ideas open when you have an expansion to expansion travel time of <10 seconds. But then again, 4 warpgate pushes ruin the concept of big map design quite a bit when you can just build a pylon anywhere and warp in a mile away.
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On September 23 2010 13:44 kickinhead wrote:
Are you crazy?
Xel has a much too wide open natural that is way too far away from the ramp - ever tried defending there with spine crawlers against hellions or any sort of push?
So I guess there isn't a consensus on any good maps.
On September 23 2010 14:22 iCanada wrote:
Search iCCup in the custom game interface under map creator.
^_^
Will do, thank you. There was another thread about Julyzerg coming to Starcraft 2 and I watched some VOD's of him to get a taste of why everyone loved him so much. The videos were from the 2008 OSL finals and the maps they played on seemed much better then the maps now is Starcraft 2. Maybe (for sure) I don't know to much about the maps they played on but it seemed like they were more balanced and allowed for a much larger variety of strategies, unlike a few maps now which clearly favor one strategy over another. Im think DO and Scrap Station favoring air, such as rushed void rays. I don't know if the maps I saw were the same as the iCCup maps, but if they are similar then I can see why they are better then the blizzard maps, at least a little bit without any real knowledge about them.
Anyway, thank you and I will look up those maps, I still have a lot to learn; its amazing how deep Starcraft 1 is I don't know if there is any other game like it.
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hmmm
Blizzard really needs to hire some mapmakers. All they actually need to do is make half a map, mirror it, change the graphics around a bit.
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Basically every one of the maps has some kind of symmetry imbalance. :<
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Thanks for sharing this with us Zelniq, this just adds to the growing list of ridiculous map imbalance issues. Everyone keeps pointing at ZvT and claiming that the matchup is imbalanced; yet this is just more evidence that it is in fact that maps that may be the main issue.
I seriously hope that SC2 doesn't go the way of Warcraft III, with Blizz maps being the only ones ever played seriously. While that worked okay for Warcraft III with it's heavy emphasis on micro, I don't think anything could kill SC2's chances at being a serious e-sport any quicker than being stuck with the current map pool.
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There are also a lot of multiplayer maps where the gas at certain expansions causes weird pathing where scvs end up going around the geyser while mining.
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I also wish ICCUP maps were standard, whenever I play custom melee games I play on them.
Just going to note a few things I've seen in here.
Why is a balanced map in a tournament so important?
Because when the zerg player is trying to spread creep to his natural while holding off a 5 reaper rush, he will have a huge difference between one side of the map or the other. If it is supposed to be 2 creep tumors to get down the ramp so be it, if it is supposed to be 1 (and that would make a lot more sense) then that should be it.
Imagine loosing $40,000, and casters saying, "if only he spread the creep more his roaches would have held that off".
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but all major casted tournaments have to be approved by blizzard. So can't they say, "you play on our maps or we shut down your tournament"?
Remember sc2 is a very "FAST PACED" strategy game. So at heart blizz wants Stepps to be standard, not cross positions in metalopolis. They consider "safe fast expand" an oxy moron.
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I wonder why they dont just make a Map and "mirror" it for each player.
For Zerg you could argue that Minerals at the Bottom are better than the minerals at the top (for the larva to reach), while that doesnt matter as much for the other races.
Hopefully some peops create "good" and "fair" maps in the future ...
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On September 23 2010 13:44 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 12:42 iEchoic wrote:On September 23 2010 12:41 TCVeritas wrote:
Are there any of the 1v1 maps in the game that are "good" maps? XelNaga Caverns is well-regarded, even though I find it completely boring and dull. Are you crazy? Xel has a much too wide open natural that is way too far away from the ramp - ever tried defending there with spine crawlers against hellions or any sort of push? Dont forget protoss 4 gate is way too strong on that map imo.
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Such imbalances doesn't belong to a strategy game.
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On September 23 2010 12:39 Carthage wrote:
For terran, it would be nice if all ramps faced the same direction and all positions had identical sim-city with add-ons.
But because that is ludicrous, it would be even nicer if add-ons could be placed on either side of a building.
Agree, in some maps is a pain do walling.
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Strange thing for me is that, in sc2, it should have been even easier for them to perfect this kind of stuff, seeing as that every hex is a square/diamond, as opposed to sc1 where they were more rhombus in the mapmaker.
Surely such things should be cleaned up or re-done. I like Scrap station, to be honest- all of you guys are saying "lol just use iccup maps, fuck off blizzard" but I, personally, like the concepts of many of Blizzard maps. Maybe I'm flawed in doing so, but I won't waver on having an opinion. Small things like this, though, make a big difference.
In a game where skill should be the overall deciding factor, luck shouldn't give an advantage to the players right after spawn locations are picked. You might say "Well what if Zerg spawns cross-spots on Metalopolis? Didn't they get lucky?"- That's a different story, as its not so much an advantage as it is leading to a different style of play.
I saw earlier in this thread (didnt read through it all) that a Terran player said "Well I have to deal with building positions all the time.." Aside from big-ramp maps, you can wall off with 3 buildings all the same, whether its an add-on that finishes the wall or a depot.
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This only comes to show how little effort Blizzard puts in the maps. A mate of mine used to make some beautiful maps in a game called Action Quake2, but some of the spawns where so imbalanced they never really cached on. The same thing strikes me with Blizzards maps. They are nice to look at, but they haven't play tested them at all.
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1. This is not big deal. There are tons of maps where your ramp is incredibly far from starting hatch, consider top scrap station as a bonus and not the right one as a disadvantage.
2. There are so many much more evident errors in mapmaking by blizzard that this thread looks kinda funny.
3. I would like it to be fixed but with blizzard's support of maps this just wont happen.
4. What actually pisses me off is that blizzard sucks at mapmaking but wont allow custom maps to be included in the ladder.
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I actually think that these wont be a MAJOR effect to the result of our gaming, but should be fixed nevertheless. Blizzard is so stubborn they wont consider other ppl's maps. they need to put more effort into this
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Russian Federation174 Posts
I want to add up another shit happening on this map
Left expansion
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/XTlS3.jpg)
Right expansion
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/M4m76.jpg)
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………………………..,.-«……………………………..»-.,
…………………….,/………………………………………..":,
…………………,?………………………………………………\,
………………./…………………………………………………..,}
……………../…………………………………………………,:`^`..}
……………/……………………………………………,:"………/
…………..?…..__…………………………………..:`………../
…………./__.(….."~-,_…………………………,:`………./
………../(_…."~,_…….."~,_………………..,:`…….._/
……….{.._$;_……"=,_……."-,_…….,.-~-,},.~";/….}
………..((…..*~_……."=-._……";,,./`…./«…………../
…,,,___.\`~,……»~.,………………..`…..}…………../
…………(….`=-,,…….`……………………(……;_,,-"
…………/.`~,……`-………………………….\……/\
………….\`~.*-,……………………………….|,./…..\,__
,,_……….}.>-._\……………………………..|…………..`=~-,
…..`=~-,_\_……`\,……………………………\
……………….`=~-,,.\,………………………….\
…………………………..`:,,………………………`\…………..__
……………………………….`=-,……………….,%`>--==``
…………………………………._\……….._,-%…….`\
……………………………..,<`.._|_,-&``…………….`\
User was warned for this post
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oh my god, cant believe that :x
€: ive seen you adding the facepalm!
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this is such a big deal. scrap station mains have been pissing me off forever, never realized how huge the difference actually is though.
€ and huge lols at recreating the destructible debris with pylons... they can't be serious.
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iccup maps are way better, more in the style of the good ol' bw.
I dont understand why blizzard made stupid maps that are very very small...
Maybe for make the new players feel they are "secure".
sry for my poor english
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... wow that is insane. never noticed.
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That SS flaw is hilarious. I doubt they'll ever fix that. All Blizzard seem to do is place rocks everywhere.
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I know, they will put rocks blocking the main entrances, that will solve it!
It does not really surprise me. When creating maps, I found getting them perfectly balanced is nearly impossible. It is just the way the editor and well, tools are set up. That is a large difference though, I knew it was unbalanced before, but I did not realize just how big of a difference it is.
I think there was another map that was flawed as well, but I can't recall :-/
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if i die before i place a tumor, pray the blizz this maps to take
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On September 23 2010 07:53 Polar_Nada wrote:
blizzard needs to make iccup makes official...
yeah this would be so awesome, unfortunately cant see this happen =(
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Welcome to blizzard world, OP writer.
They are bad at making map since 1998, that's a long long time
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On September 23 2010 18:56 akirjoker wrote:
if i die before i place a tumor, pray the blizz this maps to take
i got the reference.
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Where can I get a hold of these Iccup maps on EU server?
I would like to use them for my customs with friends.
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On September 23 2010 19:49 -Archangel- wrote:
Where can I get a hold of these Iccup maps on EU server?
I would like to use them for my customs with friends.
When creating a game search for 'iccup' you will find 10+maps under this name.
and for blizz hiring pro map maker..why should they spend more money if you play the game nonetheless? and tourneys work too with this maps. from blizz PoV its working perfect
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Well, Blizzard isnt good at making maps ~~
Another example: In BW the intrance to ur natural expansion was quite narrow so you could easily defend with 1 sunken vs vultures etc.
In SC2 on maps like Metal, Xel naga, Delta etc you have to get 2-3 spines + queens to cover ur whole area around the natural. I think thats another reason why early harass/pushes are so strong vs Zerg. Because its so hard to defend the whole area around your hatchery.
The only map where you can defend properly vs 4gate pushes etc. is LT (and maybe blistering) because it hasnt got this wide open area around ur natural.
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This is a issue for terran too, should be able to choose which side we want techlabs on
Getting a spawn with the ramp going down to the right is so fucking annoying
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There are more imbalances such as if you spawn on the south side your harvesters spawn closest to the minerals versus the north. Things like Tech labs for the north side are safer from attacks because they build inward vs building out toward the ramp.
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They should seriously consider getting more user-made maps into the ladder system, because things like that (especially the fail starting positions) are nothing but unprofessional
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This is the first IMBA post I've ever agreed with. I play toss so I never would have thought of this. Hats off Zelniq.
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Great game, terrible maps 
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There are small imbalances like this on Metalopolis as well.
What fun would it be if all positions on the map were created geometrically equal?
You may as well have one map that has squared starting locations. (64x64 for instance).
At the same time, you would probably then want to say, ok, well now that's done but now it appears my mineral fields aren't all lined up. Or "In this base it has 2 mineral fields that are slightly farther away from the cc/nexus/hatch, but in my base I have 3 fields that are slightly farther away"... continuing on with that, you could then argue that being placed at a top position with minerals above your base would be so unfair to a Zerg player that it needed to be changed.
All these things are very minor and in the long run should not effect whether you win or lose a game.
If you start in a position where you know the terrain isn't really to your advantage, take it into account, do some things a little bit differently than you would if you were in the spot that looks just a little bit more ideal to you.
For all we know, Blizzard intentionally created these very small imbalances to mix things up just a little bit.
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Thanks for your time on this Zelniq. Even if it's not done right away it's good to know someone is taking the time and effort to address these issues.
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I doubt it was intentional. They would have to go out of their way to make these sorts of "differences".
It's far more likely they just didn't think about these things when they constructed the map. They may have had a few guys test some things out here and there, but with the millions of games being played on them now people will find inconsistencies in the map design.
Edit; typing on iPhone=lose.
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On September 23 2010 19:49 -Archangel- wrote:
Where can I get a hold of these Iccup maps on EU server?
I would like to use them for my customs with friends.
There is not that many maps on EU at the moment due to the 10 map per account restriction. I have contacted the E-Sports team to allow us some accounts that can publish unlimited maps to all the servers. Cross your fingers.
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On September 23 2010 21:49 Champ24 wrote:
I doubt it was intentional. They would have to go out of their way to make these sorts of "differences".
It's far more likely they just didn't think about these things when they constructed the map. They may have had a few guys test some things out here and there, but with the millions of games being played on them now people will find inconsistencies in the map design.
Edit; typing on iPhone=lose.
Sounds pretty accurate. They should really try to hire people who know how to make maps.
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![[image loading]](http://holycrapthatsfunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/can-we-fix-it.jpg)
I believe that no one on these forums can fix it, send it to blizzard/official forums. And hope for best.
User was warned for this post
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On September 23 2010 21:59 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 21:49 Champ24 wrote:
I doubt it was intentional. They would have to go out of their way to make these sorts of "differences".
It's far more likely they just didn't think about these things when they constructed the map. They may have had a few guys test some things out here and there, but with the millions of games being played on them now people will find inconsistencies in the map design.
Edit; typing on iPhone=lose. Sounds pretty accurate. They should really try to hire people who know how to make maps.
I don't really think that is the issue, I think it is just budgets. I work as an engineer and I know I get reamed to push crap out the door before I think it's ready (or maybe I suck, who knows). The application of these errors are pretty specific...baneling harass being struck by a spine crawler once as it tries to go in a base on a map is hard to think of.
Another thread pertains to colossi harass on a natural expansion on steppes of war...another pretty specific thing to look at. This game is extremely complex, so finding small things like this will likely go on forever.
But don't get me wrong, these things should be fixed.
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it may seem insignificant to non zergies, but its so annoying if your trying to fast creep spread
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why do blizzard-maps suck so hard?
Why do they have ppl that are making this maps that are completely incompetent when there are enough good mapmakers out there?
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On September 23 2010 23:04 kickinhead wrote:
why do blizzard-maps suck so hard?
Why do they have ppl that are making this maps that are completely incompetent when there are enough good mapmakers out there?
Probably because Blizzard wouldn't hire full time map makers lol.
The maps they make are for the campaign. Aside from that it's obvious they don't know how to properly make maps, and I don't understand why people complain like this is news.
They should just have a "ladder map" submission contest and use those maps, and perhaps even have those same people edit the current maps. I like the ladder maps (Delta//Meta//LT//Scrap) but I agree there's subtle differences while playing each one.
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On September 23 2010 22:25 Thunderfist wrote:I believe that no one on these forums can fix it, send it to blizzard/official forums. And hope for best.
I was going to start a thread about this, with the gist of what's said here, on the Battle.net EU forums and see if it got any attention. Then I foolishly clicked on a thread already there and after reading a couple of posts almost lost the will to live, the stupid hurt that much (someone out there actually thinks that the game is imbalanced because one colossus can't take on an MM ball by its-self).
Once I stop shedding tears for the fate of the human race I'll delve into there again.
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another thing: the base on the left side is much wider. when i go on a rage induced cheesing spree and get scrap station, i can only successfully proxy hatch if my opponent is on the left, because there is so much room to hide a hatchery.
i can see proxying being more effective on that side too.
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I would have thought that by now, Blizzard would have made a feature in the editor (even if only for internal use) that allows you to draw a part of the map and copy-rotate the terrain a number of times. Afterwards, they can add cosmetic changes and doodads, but it would ensure the maps are practically the same for every starting position.
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I willl not play this map anymore. blizz should probably test this bullcrap before they publish. jesus. they good for programming, not this.
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You would think blizzard would at least try to make maps that are symmetrical.
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Knowing Blizzard, they'll probably attempt to fix it by adding destructible rocks or some shit.
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Oh wow, that difference on crap station is pretty bad.. Blizzard needs to fix this kind of stuff asap.
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Let's take an extreme example of a completely asymmetrical map. Why is this necessarily a bad thing? Since builds for a map and matchup are map-dependant this simply adds the extra dimension of positional dependency.
Different maps already favour different races, top/bottom vs side positions affect building arrangements and wall-off possibilities, with the terran building add-ons being even more unbalancing in this regard.
I'm not a high-level player, so maybe I'm missing something crucial here, but it seems like we're just assuming that the maps need to be exactly symmetrical.
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On September 24 2010 02:21 safjx wrote:
Let's take an extreme example of a completely asymmetrical map. Why is this necessarily a bad thing? Since builds for a map and matchup are map-dependant this simply adds the extra dimension of positional dependency.
Different maps already favour different races, top/bottom vs side positions affect building arrangements and wall-off possibilities, with the terran building add-ons being even more unbalancing in this regard.
I'm not a high-level player, so maybe I'm missing something crucial here, but it seems like we're just assuming that the maps need to be exactly symmetrical.
They do.
If 2 zerg are fighting on scrap station and one of them loses, if it is even SLIGHTLY due to the map not being balanced, blizzard fuked up.
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On September 23 2010 08:15 Dark.Carnival wrote:
Expect them to add more rocks in the next patch, that's the Blizzard way of balancing SC2 maps.
hahahahahahhahahahh made me laugh bigtime
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On September 24 2010 02:21 safjx wrote:
Let's take an extreme example of a completely asymmetrical map. Why is this necessarily a bad thing? Since builds for a map and matchup are map-dependant this simply adds the extra dimension of positional dependency.
Different maps already favour different races, top/bottom vs side positions affect building arrangements and wall-off possibilities, with the terran building add-ons being even more unbalancing in this regard.
I'm not a high-level player, so maybe I'm missing something crucial here, but it seems like we're just assuming that the maps need to be exactly symmetrical. You're part right. The problem comes from the fact that there is no benefit in exchange for this blatant weakness.
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Like Idra said, blizzard may not ultimately create balance. custom maps might ultimately create balance. i think some people do not remember old school sc1 ladder maps like rivalry and such. its a stark contrast from what was used later.
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[wrong thread, mod can wipe this out]
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On September 24 2010 00:54 aseq wrote:
I would have thought that by now, Blizzard would have made a feature in the editor (even if only for internal use) that allows you to draw a part of the map and copy-rotate the terrain a number of times. Afterwards, they can add cosmetic changes and doodads, but it would ensure the maps are practically the same for every starting position.
I know! There are symmetry tools in 3rd party brood war editors that are years and years and years old. I can't believe they didn't put any in the galaxy editor. It would let map makers make better maps in many fewer hours.
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why dont we see more tournaments with custom maps. I wouldnt mind playing only custom games with them instead of ladder. That way i would also care less about my score, plus only good players would probably play since all the noobies playing custom games would play only on the blizzard maps. Not to mention, better games on sweeter bigger maps.
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Those games on ICCUP were great. They really should promote those maps, and "community active" players like Demuslim, Day 9, Morrow should help on this.
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I agree, blizzards maps are subpar compared to many of the custom maps out there right now. The sooner people start using them, the better and more fun the game will be.
Stuff like this isnt a certain race whining about imbalance, its just a flaw with the map that needs to be fixed.
Blizzard's perfect map consists of each player starting on opposite sides, with 1 worker. The spot where their main should be is replaced instead by rocks, which their worker must destroy at the start of each game. After this is completed, they can build their main. The path to their opponents base is blocked by no less than 13 sets of rocks. There is only one expansion, and rocks cover each individual mineral patch. In game music is replaced by rock music. In patch 1.2 rocks also receive a significant armor buff, and do damage back.
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Didn't want to make a new thread for it so I wanted to bring this to light as well.
On LT at the 12:00 spawn location, as zerg, your overlord always spawns exactly on top of your hatchery. I misclick the overlord all the time, sometimes the overlord even blends in so well that I forget to move him lol.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ZrCdb.jpg)
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On September 26 2010 07:12 tackklee wrote:Didn't want to make a new thread for it so I wanted to bring this to light as well. On LT at the 12:00 spawn location, as zerg, your overlord always spawns exactly on top of your hatchery. I misclick the overlord all the time, sometimes the overlord even blends in so well that I forget to move him lol.
Omfg I hate that more than anything. I think LT is the only map that has that problem too. I really don't get why blizzard makes such bad maps.
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On September 23 2010 09:11 SichuanPanda wrote:
I think what would solve all the problems is a league above Diamond for high-level play, featuring a high-level map list. Lower level players would have the standard Blizzard map-set, while the league above Diamond (Pro League for example sake) would feature either custom designed maps by Blizzard noting community suggestions, or even better ICCUP style maps, obviously with the features of SC2 maps - but tailored for high-level play, and also not heavily rewarding to rush play.
The Pro League if implemented should be 'optional' in that when you get promoted out of Diamond into Pro League you get a message saying 'Congratulations you have been promoted to Pro League. This league features a different map set, designed for high-level play, and also and ELO ranking system (i.e. no divisions). Are you sure you want to play in this league?'.
This would solve the issue with Blizzard not wanting to implement higher level maps for the sake of the 'average player'. This way people who don't feel comfortable playing at a very high-level, and want to stay in Diamond forever are perfectly welcome to do so. Once promoted you can opt-in later to the league at any time, provided your hidden rank hasn't dropped below Pro League level since you originally declined.
Thoughts on this idea? I know its been mentioned before, but with the maps as evidence, there may actually be a solid amount of data for Blizzard to conclude such a league is needed.
So what's wrong with allowing "non pro leaguers" access to these "high-level maps"? @.@
I'm sure that a lot of people would want to play on those maps too along with the current map pool while pro leaguers can play exclusively on their high-level maps.
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On September 26 2010 07:12 tackklee wrote:Didn't want to make a new thread for it so I wanted to bring this to light as well. On LT at the 12:00 spawn location, as zerg, your overlord always spawns exactly on top of your hatchery. I misclick the overlord all the time, sometimes the overlord even blends in so well that I forget to move him lol.
Reason #1907108956016805619865081601105658061506508 Blizzard sucks at map making.
Ugh when will people stop using these terrible, terrible maps ?
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All the people bashing blizzard maps..
You realize that the Kespa/ICCUP maps also have sways in them to which favor races/builds etc that's just how maps work.. I mean theres a ton of maps in the Kespa pool that favor T v Z and Jaedong landed a lot of them in the OSL
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On September 26 2010 08:08 Xunaka wrote:
All the people bashing blizzard maps..
You realize that the Kespa/ICCUP maps also have sways in them to which favor races/builds etc that's just how maps work.. I mean theres a ton of maps in the Kespa pool that favor T v Z and Jaedong landed a lot of them in the OSL
Yea NO WHERE near the same imbalance as Blizz maps.
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On September 26 2010 08:08 Xunaka wrote:
All the people bashing blizzard maps..
You realize that the Kespa/ICCUP maps also have sways in them to which favor races/builds etc that's just how maps work.. I mean theres a ton of maps in the Kespa pool that favor T v Z and Jaedong landed a lot of them in the OSL
People aren't bashing maps for being imbalanced. Having imbalanced maps in a larger map pool is fine. It's that they are so poorly made and the imbalance is not spread across multiple matchups. Making a map pool is very delicate. A mixture of imbalanced the standard balanced maps normally make for a very exciting series. Having players play a heavy TvZ map then balanced TvZ then heavy ZvT map is far more exciting than TvZ/TvZ/TvZ...
The main issue is how poorly made maps are.
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Are there any other positional imbalances on Scrap Station, or is it only the two issues posted in the OP?
I'd like to get a complete list of every single problem this map has, if possible. For research!
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Imbalances such as these are endemic to the way Blizzard approaches mapmaking. A Blizzard mapmaker, no matter how talented he might be, only has one chance to publish his map and any imbalances that come to light after that are usually left in place. Blizzard occasionally does a map revamp, but those are rare and tend to only change one specific thing - for example adding destructible rocks. I think Blizzard's mapmakers are great really, so far I've maybe seen just a few community maps that come close to Blizzard's just for refinement, but for maps used in competitive play being pretty and conceptually interesting isn't enough. In those cases the only thing that works is, say, Blizzard's actual approach to game balance: commitment to continously change the game (map) until it is satisfactory; something that might never happen but is always the goal.
Another important systemic cause for possibly less good Blizzard maps is that they're created to appeal to players of all skill levels. The practice league maps with destructible rocks are obviously just gimmicks, in reality most of the maps are made with the low level player in mind. Expanding is hard (low level players dislike expanding because it is so much trouble to manage two bases), maps are small (games will be short, so you don't have to commit too much to one game). The only real solution to this is to have a different mappool for diamond/platinum than you have for bronze/silver/gold. This lets you introduce complexer and larger maps for the better gamers. As long as you can thumb maps down having a few larger maps in the diamond ladder pool is hardly a bad thing. If people really dislike playing on them they can vote them down. Too bad that couldn't happen with the current mappool though: some of the maps are so imbalanced against zerg that I just have to thumb them down -- playing as ZvT on lost temple is just something I don't want to do too often. Ideally Blizzard would have removed them by now and tried some other maps.
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Glad someone finally made a post about this (may have been an earlier one I didn't see). I noticed this in BETA and I am sure any one who plays zerg extensively noticed this. The left base in scrapstation is MUCH better for zerg then the right, in ZvZ this is exacerbated even more.
Something that should be fixed for sure.
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I abuse the left-side position in ZvZ on Scrap all the time and, from what I can recall, have won all of those games. Patch the map or, better yet, replace it with ICCUP maps
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Didn't want to make a new thread about this so i'll just post it here, but i think Delta Quadrant is ridiculously imbalanced... If you spawn close position, the farthest away clockwise has such an advantage because he his able to expand AWAY from his opponent. He can abuse those high ground cliffs which are close to his base and it seems impossible to defend the natural...
![[image loading]](http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/5254/deltaquadrant.png)
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This should be fixed and adressed ! We should allow some of the ICCup maps to be in the ladder map pack ! Agree?
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On September 26 2010 08:01 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 07:12 tackklee wrote:Didn't want to make a new thread for it so I wanted to bring this to light as well. On LT at the 12:00 spawn location, as zerg, your overlord always spawns exactly on top of your hatchery. I misclick the overlord all the time, sometimes the overlord even blends in so well that I forget to move him lol. Reason #1907108956016805619865081601105658061506508 Blizzard sucks at map making. Ugh when will people stop using these terrible, terrible maps ?
Don't forget the Problem if you start like this as Zerg, the way to walk for your drones is longer sometimes if the eggs are far away from the minerals. That sucks also.
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well this is a huge map imbalance, not fair to lose based on base design not even location, didnt realize till it was pointed out that the bases are alot different shapes and size not fair :/
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hmm interesting... they should take a look at this
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On September 23 2010 07:53 Aylear wrote:
That's a pretty ridiculous map flaw right there.
Remind me again why Blizzard won't let skilled map makers create SC2 maps for ladder? They're just a bit too proud
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Lol... I was staring at the top of the image and asking, WHERE IS THE CREEP?!?! IMBA
But i looked at the bottom. Verry glaring disadvantage the right side has.
You are E-famous because Artosis and Tasteless mentioned this problem in their cast (no doubt that they read your post.) Congrats
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On September 23 2010 07:48 Ketara wrote:
This is something that we should really be ramming down Blizzards throats on their own forums.
We've been complaining about it since beta, but thus far they've been content to ignore the asymmetry of maps; try searching about it, you should find plenty.
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On September 26 2010 09:17 Geiko wrote:Didn't want to make a new thread about this so i'll just post it here, but i think Delta Quadrant is ridiculously imbalanced... If you spawn close position, the farthest away clockwise has such an advantage because he his able to expand AWAY from his opponent. He can abuse those high ground cliffs which are close to his base and it seems impossible to defend the natural...
TBH, i don't think i have ever taken that back natural, unless for a specific build. But as for the natural flow for getting a third, i always just opt for a gold. Since if you spawn close pos, you have the option to then expand away. Plus you dont have to worry about harrasment via cliff. The only thing you have to worry about is ground harrasment, which is countered just by having good map vision.
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Honestly, I think Blizzard is relatively good at map design, but their technical flaws are ridiculous. IMO they should bring back Twisted Meadows (and maybe Terenas Stand) from Warcraft 3 and dump some of the imbalanced maps.
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I once read that on Lost Temple reapers can hit the natural expansion while on top of the cliff on some positions, but can't on others.
Can anyone confirm this? Would be another thing to fix.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina114 Posts
I kind of understand why the maps have such glaring flaws.
When they were being made, the focus was on showcasing game engine/map editor/special abilities and thus haven't been thoroughly tested for abuses.
That wouldn't be a problem, though, if only Blizzard paid more attention to us, the players...
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Nice find.
For people that pushing for Blizzard to use ICCup maps, its not happening, since most ICCUP maps are just make over of Kespa SC:BW map.
With the situation between Blizzard and Kespa rightnow, there is no way Blizzard will obtain the rights to use these maps for SC2.
Speaking of which, I dont think why Blizzard has to make SC2 maps themselves. The Korean are the BEST at making maps. Why dont just oursourcing map making to some Korean firms.
Is Mapdori(the one who map many famous SC:BW map) a individual company in Korea?
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Why do maps need to be absolutely symmetrical? They're already asymmetrical for Terran since starting positions dictate building placement due to addons. Being at 12 o clock on LT means you can have addons and a bling proof wall. Being at 6 o clock means goodbye addons if blings come.
And you're looking at Scrap Station in a vacuum. Yes, the creep spread is not identical. Doesn't the other base have any other benefits? One immediately apparent bonus is that the close air side is much smaller on the 12 o clock base, making it easier to defend against air harassment and drops.
It's very easy to make assumptions (symmetry is always better) and then cherry pick things that support that assumption (creep spread is slightly harder on this map due to asymmetry).
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Caphe, I'm pretty sure Blizzard will eventually use outside maps.
But I can assure you they won't be ICCup maps, not least of all because Diamond is so utterly unprofessional as their spokesperson.
"Blizzard, your maps and all your design decisions are absolute garbage, our maps are clearly superior and counter to your shitty design decisions, use those".
Why does anyone think this kind of approach is a good idea?
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Please start using iCCup maps people, Blizzard won't integrate them on their own. They need to see that players prefer and want the iCCup maps.
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The top position is still a little bit closer, but now it just takes two tumors on each side.
For patch 1.2 on scrap station:
South Spawn normal creep:+ Show Spoiler +
North spawn normal creep:+ Show Spoiler +
South spawn 1 tumor:+ Show Spoiler +
North spawn 1 tumor:+ Show Spoiler +I'm pretty sure I put the tumors in the right places, or close enough anyway to demonstrate.
(since creep spreading got changed in 1.2, I assumed it would be fine to bring up this topic..and since another related one was closed)
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On October 07 2010 18:33 kojinshugi wrote:
Caphe, I'm pretty sure Blizzard will eventually use outside maps.
But I can assure you they won't be ICCup maps, not least of all because Diamond is so utterly unprofessional as their spokesperson.
"Blizzard, your maps and all your design decisions are absolute garbage, our maps are clearly superior and counter to your shitty design decisions, use those".
Why does anyone think this kind of approach is a good idea?
well yeah Diamonds approach isn't the best but if Blizzard starts to look deep into iCCup Maps, at some point they'll BEG for the rights to use them, even tough there will be some maps that will attract less attention but with some good maps at a point Blizzard will fall
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i56.tinypic.com/72r9dy.png)
![[image loading]](http://i52.tinypic.com/15oe981.png)
![[image loading]](http://i56.tinypic.com/2mz1p1.png)
![[image loading]](http://i53.tinypic.com/19p1qh.png)
