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Active: 7734 users

Ultras vs Repaired PF - Page 41

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Fa1nT
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3423 Posts
September 22 2010 15:03 GMT
#801
On September 22 2010 23:58 BrownBear wrote:
It's still a bug when code that is doing exactly what it's supposed to do does something unexpected and undesired.


If they they allowed zerglings to shoot siege tank shells, and they did splash damage, would this be an unexpected and undesirable effect?

Does blizzard even know how their own skills work that they would even release this?
Cofo
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1388 Posts
September 22 2010 15:05 GMT
#802
'tis a bug.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/628239981
+ Show Spoiler +
Grond
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
599 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-22 15:20:45
September 22 2010 15:05 GMT
#803
On September 22 2010 23:58 BrownBear wrote:
It's still a bug when code that is doing exactly what it's supposed to do does something unexpected and undesired.


No it is not, which is probably why Blizzard called it an issue and not a bug.

They announced the change a month ago. It's working just like they said it would. It may be an over buff but it is not a bug.
Proxyles
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden27 Posts
September 22 2010 15:20 GMT
#804
StarCraft II Beta – Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250)

The latest patch notes can always be found on the StarCraft II Beta General Discussion forum.

Balance Changes

TERRAN
Battlecruiser
-The build time has been decreased from 110 to 90.

Fusion Core
-The build time has been decreased from 80 to 65.

Hellion
-The range has been increased from 5 to 6.

Planetary Fortress
-The splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.

Raven
-Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6.
-Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2.
-Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core.

Siege Tank
-Life increased from 150 to 160.
-Siege Mode splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.

Thor
-Ground damage decreased from 45 to 30.
-Ground rate of fire improved from 1.93 to 1.28.
-Air damage changed from 8 (+4 Light) to 6 (+6 Light).
-250mm Strike Cannons are now an upgrade at the Factory Tech Lab.
-250mm Strike Cannons research now costs 150/150 and 110 seconds.
-250mm Strike Cannons energy cost increased from 100 to 150.
-Anti-Air splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.


PROTOSS
Archon
-The splash radius has been increased from 0.8 to 1.
-Splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.

Colossus
-The damage has been decreased from 20 to 15.
-The rate of fire has been improved from 2.2 to 1.65.

Phoenix
-Can now attack while moving.

Sentry
-The damage has been decreased from 8 to 6.

ZERG
Brood Lord
-Life has been decreased from 275 to 225.
-Armor has been decreased from 2 to 1.

Corruptor
-Corruptor damage changed from 12 (+10 Massive) to 14 (+6 Massive).
-Corruptor speed increased from 2.75 to 2.9531
-Corruption ability redesigned:
-Single target.
-Increases damage taken by 20%.
-Lasts 30 seconds.
-Costs 100 energy.
-Range 6.
-Cannot target structures.

Infestor
-Neural Parasite is now an upgrade at the Infestation Pit.
-Neural Parasite research costs 150/150 and 110 seconds.
-Neural Parasite can now target Air units.
-Neural Parasite energy cost increased from 50 to 100.

Spine Crawler
-The root time has been increased from 6 to 12.

Spore Crawler
-The root time has been increased from 6 to 12.

Ultralisk
-Damage has been increased from 18 to 25.


Hotkey Changes

General
-In order to resolve a conflict with building multiple Forges with the Shift Key we have made the following changes:
-Changed Center Camera from Shift+F to Ctrl+F.

Standard
-To prevent the accidental research of Ventral Sacs when trying to train an Overlord with no Larva available, the hotkey has been changed from V to E.
-View Own Health Bars functionality added to the Backslash key

Standard for Lefties
-Due to a conflict with research Banshee Cloak, research Seeker Missile has been changed from L to K.
-To correct a conflict with the Attack command on Planetary Fortress, train SCV has been changed from K to J.
-In order to prevent the accidental training of Zerglings when using the Select Larva hotkey,train Zergling has been changed from L to J.
-To prevent the accidental training of a Queen, train Ultralisk has been changed from U to T.
-To prevent the accidental research of Pneumatized Carapace when trying to train a corruptor with -no Larva available, research Pneumatized Carapace has been changed from P to C.
-View All Status Bars has been changed from Q to the Alt key.
-View own Status Bars functionality has been added to the Q key.

Grid for Lefties
-Attack Move and all other buttons in the 0,4 position should now function correctly.
-View Own Status Bars functionality added to Q.
-View Enemy Status Bars moved to W.
-View Ally Status Bars moved to E.

Classic
-Changed build Nydus Canal from P to N.
-Changed Place Nydus Canal ability from P to N.
-Terran Infantry Weapon researches have been changed from E to W.
-Terran Vehicle Weapon researches have been changed from E to W.
-Train Thor hotkey has been changed from O to G.
-Train Viking hotkey has been changed from Y to W.
-View Own Status Bars functionality has been added to the Backslash key.


Icon Position Changes

To put all race gas extractors in the same icon position, the positions of the Supply Depot/Refinery and Pylon/Assimilator have been swapped.

In order to make transforming multiple Gateways easier for players using Grid key sets, Transform to Gateway has been moved to a separate icon position (2,1).

Bug Fixes

Corrected an issue that was causing the Polish language client to crash when receiving the "player is no longer being revealed” message.

Corrected incorrect battle.net links on multiple language clients pages.

Corrected an issue where the Zealot was using an US English voice over in the Korean language client.

Corrected an issue where a player is unable to build any structures that require pylon power when their protoss ally leaves.

Units can no longer be healed or repaired while in transports.

Corrected an issue where the Creep Tumor targeting circle was visible to opponents through Fog of War.

Corrected an issue in which selecting a Starport under construction and a completed Starport would display the select builder command in the Viking slot.

Corrected the Broodling weapon icon.


As you clearly can se from Patch 11 in Beta this is Working as intended
all splash is working in the same way, and has been this way sens then

Splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
September 22 2010 15:23 GMT
#805
It's funny how there's no mention of the ultralisk splash in the very patch notes you quoted, yet you insist that all splash works the same way.
I'll call Nada.
misterkiem
Profile Joined September 2010
3 Posts
September 22 2010 15:24 GMT
#806
I'm ok with the ultra splash killing SCVs, but I think the range should be toned down a bit, because as of now the splash range is comically huge.

http://ju.chearon.net/up/junkyard/77612_ultra1.jpg
http://ju.chearon.net/up/junkyard/55676_ultra2.jpg

That stalker shouldn't be getting damaged off of the splash, and neither should the missile turret in the youtube video in the OP. That seems way over the top. The splash range should be reduced to include just units like half a square away from the structure (so it'll hit adjacent structures and repairing SCVs). I feel that would be balanced. With BL's being the only thing Z unit that can safely attack PF, I'm fine with Ultra's being a hard counter to auto-repair PF.
Proxyles
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden27 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-22 15:26:53
September 22 2010 15:25 GMT
#807
Well to my defence its not the first time they forgot to add something in the notes, and my point is that ALL splash (ok that is mentioned) works that specific way, so why would not ultras splash work that exact same way?

Edit, AKA I think the change they did in patch 11 was not to the specific units doing splash damage but to the implementation of the splash mechanism
cykalu
Profile Joined July 2010
Australia30 Posts
September 22 2010 15:26 GMT
#808
Just wondering, does Ultralisk' splash +2 work on thors that's being repaired by 30 SCVs as well?
fdsdfg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1251 Posts
September 22 2010 15:31 GMT
#809
What I think is absolutely ridiculous is that they never tested this.

They make a big change to ultra splash damage, and don't test it against the thing that most players are excited about?? When they announced the changes, every zerg player said "Oh awesome, this means we can attack a PF and damage the SCVs trying to repair it!"

We didn't imagine this.. and clearly neither did Blizzard... but when we got 1.1 this was one of the first things people tested. Apparently Blizzard didn't test it though, and we had this unintended side effect.

Just crazy.
aka Siyko
lovewithlea
Profile Joined March 2010
168 Posts
September 22 2010 15:35 GMT
#810
On September 22 2010 22:22 Grond wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 22 2010 20:24 papaz wrote:
On September 22 2010 19:55 Grond wrote:
This probably won't do any good because people aren't reading the thread

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/627980105

Hello Naraka,
We are currently aware of this issue and hope to have it resolved in a future patch.
Beware of Ultras!! :p


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/628239981

We are aware of the issue BlitzKrieg, and hope to have it resolved in the future. We apologize for any inconvenience or frustration this may have caused you.
In the meantime ... fear the Ultra!


It's not a bug, it's the normal attack being used instead of the Ram attack which was removed.

From the Situation report:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/692221
The ultralisk building attack (Ram) is being removed because the damage rate is too similar to its normal attack, which will be used against buildings instead. When ultralisks target tightly packed smaller buildings such as supply depots, the Ram attack is actually outputting considerably less overall damage than its normal attack, as Ram only hits a single target.


It's working exactly how it is supposed to. The Blue posts suggest that it was a larger buff than they intended.






From what I read from the blue posts it suggest it is not the way it should be and it will be fixed.

Specially if you keep reading the posts in bnet.


It's going to be changed, fixed is not a good word to use in my opinion. I'm all for a change, it should be a static value, not based on target size. The AoE is way too small when fighting Bio. It doesn't sound they regard this as an urgent issue so the patch that addresses it may also contain a PF nerf and/or a repair nerf.



to quote myself:

i just wanted to point out that the radius of the building does not increase the radius of the splash. there just is a bigger inner radius around which the splash radius circles. so yes a bigger building will get you a bigger splash area but units dont need to stand further away of a CC than a depot to not get splashed
Nakas
Profile Joined May 2010
United States148 Posts
September 22 2010 15:42 GMT
#811
On September 23 2010 00:26 cykalu wrote:
Just wondering, does Ultralisk' splash +2 work on thors that's being repaired by 30 SCVs as well?


Yes, but it was like that way before, they only changed the way ultras attack buildings in patch 1.1.
Batch
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden692 Posts
September 22 2010 15:42 GMT
#812
As I wrote earlier this is clearly a bug but it is not as game breaking as some of you thinks.

I did some testing and 8 marines with stim kills of a command center and 16 workers faster than a ultralisk does. Ultralisk drops will not be any more dangerous than the cheaper (and easier accessible) marine drops.
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
September 22 2010 15:42 GMT
#813
On September 23 2010 00:25 Proxyles wrote:
Well to my defence its not the first time they forgot to add something in the notes, and my point is that ALL splash (ok that is mentioned) works that specific way, so why would not ultras splash work that exact same way?

Edit, AKA I think the change they did in patch 11 was not to the specific units doing splash damage but to the implementation of the splash mechanism


They did no changes to the splash. Ultra's splash has always been like that. It does originate from the center of the unit, but unlike all other splash attacks it's extended by the unit's radius, so when attacking something huge, their splash also becomes huge.

They obviously forgot about that mechanic.
I'll call Nada.
Nakas
Profile Joined May 2010
United States148 Posts
September 22 2010 15:47 GMT
#814
On September 23 2010 00:42 lololol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2010 00:25 Proxyles wrote:
Well to my defence its not the first time they forgot to add something in the notes, and my point is that ALL splash (ok that is mentioned) works that specific way, so why would not ultras splash work that exact same way?

Edit, AKA I think the change they did in patch 11 was not to the specific units doing splash damage but to the implementation of the splash mechanism


They did no changes to the splash. Ultra's splash has always been like that. It does originate from the center of the unit, but unlike all other splash attacks it's extended by the unit's radius, so when attacking something huge, their splash also becomes huge.


He's talking about the beta patch 11, not the patch 1.1 that was just released.
SlowBlink
Profile Joined August 2010
United States102 Posts
September 22 2010 15:48 GMT
#815
Oh no, you mean terrans might actually have to defend their planetary fortresses now, and not just expect them to be invincible? Next blizzards going to get rid of their "let me see what's here" button, and make them actually learn how to scout and get detection. Woe is me.
gakkgakk
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Norway902 Posts
September 22 2010 15:49 GMT
#816
On September 23 2010 00:42 Batch wrote:
As I wrote earlier this is clearly a bug but it is not as game breaking as some of you thinks.

I did some testing and 8 marines with stim kills of a command center and 16 workers faster than a ultralisk does. Ultralisk drops will not be any more dangerous than the cheaper (and easier accessible) marine drops.


As I wrote earlier this is clearly and it is as game breaking as some of you think.

I did some testing and 16 zerglings with adrenal kills of a command center and 16 workers faster than a Thor does. Thor drops will not be any more dangerous than the cheaper (and easier accessible) zergling drops.

Your point being?
A timing is a build done by a player you like. An allin is a build done by one you dont. -sOda~
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
September 22 2010 15:49 GMT
#817
On September 23 2010 00:47 Nakas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2010 00:42 lololol wrote:
On September 23 2010 00:25 Proxyles wrote:
Well to my defence its not the first time they forgot to add something in the notes, and my point is that ALL splash (ok that is mentioned) works that specific way, so why would not ultras splash work that exact same way?

Edit, AKA I think the change they did in patch 11 was not to the specific units doing splash damage but to the implementation of the splash mechanism


They did no changes to the splash. Ultra's splash has always been like that. It does originate from the center of the unit, but unlike all other splash attacks it's extended by the unit's radius, so when attacking something huge, their splash also becomes huge.


He's talking about the beta patch 11, not the patch 1.1 that was just released.


Ultras splash has always been different no matter the patch.
I'll call Nada.
Fa1nT
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3423 Posts
September 22 2010 15:49 GMT
#818
If it did NOT work like that, then they would do NO splash damage, because the center of a fortress is FAR from the edges.

This means that 30 SCV could out-repair probably 5-10 ultras and take 0 damage unless EACH ultra was microed to attack SCV, but then we are back to square 1, crappy priority AI
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
September 22 2010 15:56 GMT
#819
On September 23 2010 00:49 Fa1nT wrote:
If it did NOT work like that, then they would do NO splash damage, because the center of a fortress is FAR from the edges.

This means that 30 SCV could out-repair probably 5-10 ultras and take 0 damage unless EACH ultra was microed to attack SCV, but then we are back to square 1, crappy priority AI


A better solution would be to just equalize the attack priority of repairing scvs and attacking units. It would fix a lot more cases, instead of just ultra vs PF.
I'll call Nada.
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
September 22 2010 15:57 GMT
#820
On September 23 2010 00:20 Proxyles wrote:
Show nested quote +
StarCraft II Beta – Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250)

The latest patch notes can always be found on the StarCraft II Beta General Discussion forum.

Balance Changes

TERRAN
Battlecruiser
-The build time has been decreased from 110 to 90.

Fusion Core
-The build time has been decreased from 80 to 65.

Hellion
-The range has been increased from 5 to 6.

Planetary Fortress
-The splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.

Raven
-Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6.
-Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2.
-Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core.

Siege Tank
-Life increased from 150 to 160.
-Siege Mode splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.

Thor
-Ground damage decreased from 45 to 30.
-Ground rate of fire improved from 1.93 to 1.28.
-Air damage changed from 8 (+4 Light) to 6 (+6 Light).
-250mm Strike Cannons are now an upgrade at the Factory Tech Lab.
-250mm Strike Cannons research now costs 150/150 and 110 seconds.
-250mm Strike Cannons energy cost increased from 100 to 150.
-Anti-Air splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.


PROTOSS
Archon
-The splash radius has been increased from 0.8 to 1.
-Splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.

Colossus
-The damage has been decreased from 20 to 15.
-The rate of fire has been improved from 2.2 to 1.65.

Phoenix
-Can now attack while moving.

Sentry
-The damage has been decreased from 8 to 6.

ZERG
Brood Lord
-Life has been decreased from 275 to 225.
-Armor has been decreased from 2 to 1.

Corruptor
-Corruptor damage changed from 12 (+10 Massive) to 14 (+6 Massive).
-Corruptor speed increased from 2.75 to 2.9531
-Corruption ability redesigned:
-Single target.
-Increases damage taken by 20%.
-Lasts 30 seconds.
-Costs 100 energy.
-Range 6.
-Cannot target structures.

Infestor
-Neural Parasite is now an upgrade at the Infestation Pit.
-Neural Parasite research costs 150/150 and 110 seconds.
-Neural Parasite can now target Air units.
-Neural Parasite energy cost increased from 50 to 100.

Spine Crawler
-The root time has been increased from 6 to 12.

Spore Crawler
-The root time has been increased from 6 to 12.

Ultralisk
-Damage has been increased from 18 to 25.


Hotkey Changes

General
-In order to resolve a conflict with building multiple Forges with the Shift Key we have made the following changes:
-Changed Center Camera from Shift+F to Ctrl+F.

Standard
-To prevent the accidental research of Ventral Sacs when trying to train an Overlord with no Larva available, the hotkey has been changed from V to E.
-View Own Health Bars functionality added to the Backslash key

Standard for Lefties
-Due to a conflict with research Banshee Cloak, research Seeker Missile has been changed from L to K.
-To correct a conflict with the Attack command on Planetary Fortress, train SCV has been changed from K to J.
-In order to prevent the accidental training of Zerglings when using the Select Larva hotkey,train Zergling has been changed from L to J.
-To prevent the accidental training of a Queen, train Ultralisk has been changed from U to T.
-To prevent the accidental research of Pneumatized Carapace when trying to train a corruptor with -no Larva available, research Pneumatized Carapace has been changed from P to C.
-View All Status Bars has been changed from Q to the Alt key.
-View own Status Bars functionality has been added to the Q key.

Grid for Lefties
-Attack Move and all other buttons in the 0,4 position should now function correctly.
-View Own Status Bars functionality added to Q.
-View Enemy Status Bars moved to W.
-View Ally Status Bars moved to E.

Classic
-Changed build Nydus Canal from P to N.
-Changed Place Nydus Canal ability from P to N.
-Terran Infantry Weapon researches have been changed from E to W.
-Terran Vehicle Weapon researches have been changed from E to W.
-Train Thor hotkey has been changed from O to G.
-Train Viking hotkey has been changed from Y to W.
-View Own Status Bars functionality has been added to the Backslash key.


Icon Position Changes

To put all race gas extractors in the same icon position, the positions of the Supply Depot/Refinery and Pylon/Assimilator have been swapped.

In order to make transforming multiple Gateways easier for players using Grid key sets, Transform to Gateway has been moved to a separate icon position (2,1).

Bug Fixes

Corrected an issue that was causing the Polish language client to crash when receiving the "player is no longer being revealed” message.

Corrected incorrect battle.net links on multiple language clients pages.

Corrected an issue where the Zealot was using an US English voice over in the Korean language client.

Corrected an issue where a player is unable to build any structures that require pylon power when their protoss ally leaves.

Units can no longer be healed or repaired while in transports.

Corrected an issue where the Creep Tumor targeting circle was visible to opponents through Fog of War.

Corrected an issue in which selecting a Starport under construction and a completed Starport would display the select builder command in the Viking slot.

Corrected the Broodling weapon icon.


As you clearly can se from Patch 11 in Beta this is Working as intended
all splash is working in the same way, and has been this way sens then

Splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage


If you read the sections you yourself have bolded you will see that NO other splash works in the same way as Ultra splash in 1.1.0. All splash originates at the center of the unit. If a unit has a size of 3 and is hit with a splash with a size of 3 no other unit would be hit by the splash because it would not exceed the size of the target unit. The Ultra splash is not using this set of logic. It is originating at the radius of the target object. So if a unit with a size of 3 is hit with its splash it and all units within a radius of (splash size) around it are being hit.
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
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