EPTUltras vs Repaired PF - Page 35
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FuryX
Australia495 Posts
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
On September 22 2010 19:55 Grond wrote: This probably won't do any good because people aren't reading the thread http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/627980105 Hello Naraka, We are currently aware of this issue and hope to have it resolved in a future patch. Beware of Ultras!! :p http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/628239981 We are aware of the issue BlitzKrieg, and hope to have it resolved in the future. We apologize for any inconvenience or frustration this may have caused you. In the meantime ... fear the Ultra! It's not a bug, it's the normal attack being used instead of the Ram attack which was removed. From the Situation report: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/692221 The ultralisk building attack (Ram) is being removed because the damage rate is too similar to its normal attack, which will be used against buildings instead. When ultralisks target tightly packed smaller buildings such as supply depots, the Ram attack is actually outputting considerably less overall damage than its normal attack, as Ram only hits a single target. It's working exactly how it is supposed to. The Blue posts suggest that it was a larger buff than they intended. From what I read from the blue posts it suggest it is not the way it should be and it will be fixed. Specially if you keep reading the posts in bnet. | ||
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csfield
United States206 Posts
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Cade)Flayer
United Kingdom279 Posts
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kthrss
Norway41 Posts
A zerg expansion being attacked by enemy forces either needs spore/spinecrawler defense or backup from troops to survive (or both), you also need to pull your drones away so they don't get wiped out. A terran PF expansion being attacked by enemy forces doesn't really need bunkers (perhaps missile turrets if there's an air attack), or that many (if any at all, depending on the size of the attacking force) troops to back it up. You don't need to move your SCV's anywhere, just set them to autorepair and the PF melts everything or a large chunk of the enemy force before going down. You'll not even lose that many SCV's, and even if you do, your PF is still strong without repairs and may survive without repairs for long enough. If all your SCV's die, you can quickly replace them with mules, it's still a relatively cheap price to pay considering how you voluntarily chose to keep your SCV's in the line of fire to repair. Note how the cost of expo defence differs between races, as well as how defence effectiveness differs. Protoss cannons cost 150 minerals, zerg spinecrawlers cost 100 and sporecrawlers cost 75 minerals. Cannons and crawlers are relatively weak, cost quite a lot of minerals, and only have the advantage that they may attack air and do not cost gas. To make an expo defense equivalent to a PF for Protoss and Zerg, you need plenty of crawlers and cannons. Seldom do expos defended by these buildings survive for long against reasonable enemy numbers without backup from troops. A PF should naturally be stronger because it also costs 150 gas (and gas being a more 'expensive' resource), but that the building can survive completely on its own in many cases without proper backup and only SCV's repairing does make it rather over the top. But I'm prepared to say Terrans should have some advantages with their mechanics. A PF is strong, should be repairable, but should also stay within reasonable limits in regard to its cost and survival ability. This video shows one unit in the game, a T3 zerg unit, attacking a PF and destroying all the SCV's with splash, and people say it's a bug or OP. Please open your eyes. How often do zerg players field ultras on average? Lets say 2 out of 10 ZvT's sees ultras appearing on the field. How often to ultras get to casually run up to a PF and attack it with only the PF attacking back? Even fewer times than that (depending on your troop positioning, and ability to react and anticipate attacks on your expos). If you think this is OP, you're not exactly thinking creatively nor constructively. As a terran, you have the OPTION of making the expo an Orbital Command instead. If it's an OC, you can just lift it off, run the SCV's away, and your army has time to respond. By making the PF you're sacrificing potential mules, scans and the ability to lift off for a powerful static ground defence for a relatively cheap price. This choice at the moment doesn't hurt too much for terrans, it's worth it to prevent casual harrassment, and you get to relax a bit more knowing you have a PF expansion (especially since you can repair it very well with your gatherers who are going to be near it at all times anyway). With this Ultralisk mechanic in place, the terran player has to be on his or her toes if zerg players get ultras out, instead of being to chill and let their PF+SCV's be a cushion for them as is in most other situations. But it's still nothing to freak out about. If a zerg does a Ultra drop on your PF (many T's tend to build turrets at expos against zergs anyway, I suspect even more will do so now), AND succeeds - because remember, you can kill the overlord before it drops. With one or two ultras, he won't kill the PF fast enough (unless you're incredibly slow, don't have anything but the PF defending, or if he has more than two ultras or numerous upgrades - note that this implies a LONG lasting game, which is uncommon) before your army can provide backup - even without repairs. So yes, you actually don't repair your PF, you run your SCV's away, like Protoss and Zerg already have to do almost every time an expansion is under attack. Problem solved, your PF probably won't die, your SCV's are safe and can return to repair the building once the attack has been neutralised. I see this change as a welcome one, it gives late game zerg a tool against PF expansions, a tool that is useful but will most likely not be used in every game (because not every game has ultras, not every game allows ultras to run freely around the place, and not every game allows a casual ovie drop - like if you have turrets or plenty of air control - as terrans often have). I really do not see how this change is so hard to live with. It does change quite a few important things for terran defence, and for zerg attacks. But it's still a relatively uncommon scenario, that you only need to work a little harder to prevent now, and work around. I do agree that the splash range from the building and outward may be a little to large, but other than that I don't see a problem with it at all. I won't bother stating the already mentioned obvious facts of the cost of 3 ultras versus the cost of a PF + SCV's. But this isn't just simple rock, paper, scissors, as we all know. My first post on these forums turned out quite long! Cheers | ||
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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csfield
United States206 Posts
On September 22 2010 09:49 VanGarde wrote: Protip: Good terran players will avoid getting a PF. It is a defeat in itself to have to build a PF at an expansion. Protip: You can have an OC at every mining base and still have PFs. An OC on the other side of the map can call down mules at your PF. | ||
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magha
Netherlands427 Posts
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Dont-Panic
Germany567 Posts
Imo the reason for this change is that Ultras should be the solution to turtling T and P. It is very hard to beat them if they hide their mainly ranged army behind a wall of buildings with the AI that tells the Z units to run around this wall like complete morons if you a-move. That means you have to target every structure on its own with a swarm of melee units while Tanks Marauders Marines Colossi Stalker etc. are ripping your army apart. Now if you have some Ultras attacking 2 or 3 buildings at the front it will be a lot easier to break through these defenses and I am sure that the splash works as intended for this scenario. | ||
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Cade)Flayer
United Kingdom279 Posts
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csfield
United States206 Posts
On September 22 2010 10:27 VanGarde wrote: Semantics, the MULE is a worker. SCV's, probles and drones do not "give" you minerals either. As I said before you don't "lose" minerals by having all your workers killed by a hellion drop either. But you loose income over time. Having a planetary fortress is financially as if you had and oc but never called down MULE's. Seriously is this concept really so hard for people to grasp? and you could have built more OCs instead of barracks and factories that's irrelevant If you want you could have 3 OCs and 3 PFs on one base. A PF doesn't have an OC as a cost since you can build as many command centers as you have resources to build. Your math and logic is absurd. | ||
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csfield
United States206 Posts
On September 22 2010 20:41 Cade)Flayer wrote: Zerg players are very fond of talking about the opportunity cost of losing the Drone when building, well how about you consider the opportunity cost of a PFort? Not only does it cost 150/150 but on top of that you are losing 270 minerals immediately due to a lack of MULE and 270 minerals every time an OC would have got a MULE. The cost of a PFort is massive. OC costs 150 minerals same as a PFort but it's still 150 vespene plus MULE loss. um, zerg players only say that to mock the ridiculous argument you're making no one says it seriously a zerg building costs a drone, not whatever a drone could have done (hint: we make another drone afterwards) a PF costs a command center and the cost of the upgrade, not the income that an OC could generate over a game (hint: you can make another CC and upgrade it to an OC if you want) | ||
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azzu
Germany141 Posts
 I don't get what the terrans are now whining about, oh damn they do not have an unkillable expansion against ultralisks, which doesn't really matter. You don't buy a PF to be late-game unit proof, you buy it to be proof of mid-game harass, and this mostly happens with zerglings, roaches, banelings, t1-t2 units. So your PF still hasn't lost its value. | ||
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Samurai-
Slovenia2035 Posts
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csfield
United States206 Posts
it costs 300 minerals plus all the gas and minerals a drone could have mined as long as the game lasts | ||
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Bosko
United States155 Posts
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
1. You can make supply depots or bunkers around your PF to make the area of attack smaller. 2. You can actually RUN YOUR SCV away, like zerg and protoss has to. 3. You can support the expo by having units close by. God forbit you should have to defend your bases with units. The aoe may be a little to large, but it should still kill every scv trying to repair pretty much instantly. | ||
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barnaby
United States18 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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Blackalpha
United Kingdom80 Posts
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