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On September 21 2010 05:05 Koukalaka wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 05:03 Easy772 wrote:
How about we require a link to a players profile or require members to post their accurate ELO? This way bronzies and other noobs could still post, but you would know how much to value an opinion from such a low ranking player. Player's profile? As I said previously, I have access to about 4-7~ accounts which are all 1400-1600 P/T/Z players and I, myself, play 1500 Protoss and all I do is 4 gate every game. Rating =/= Skill Rating =/= Intellect Rating =/= Knowledge Elitism is a plague of many games, don't let it affect SC2 as well.
Good post, this reminds me of the time someone wanted to create sub-forums where only people who had above like 500 posts could write (note: I'm not 100% sure about the numbers). This is ridiculous, although I admit it would be a lot of fun if people with really high score (like 1600+) had their own sub-forum, read/not write for the rest.
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The standard should be way over 1200 points. A pros or close to pros only thread here and there would be a good idea. But if these threads do get made it might change TL too much. It might become much more of a reading forum and not a forum forum. Forums are dialogues and discussions, even if some people have no idea what they are talking about. It is best to just ignore dumb posts instead of arguing with them.
This could isolate many people not only from the treads but the website as well. I feel it might become counterproductive to the development of the online community we have here. But I guess it's impossible to tell how it would really turn out unless it is actually done.
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On September 21 2010 05:06 TechDeft wrote:
So you DON'T want a forum that you can go and read and be confident that 90%+ of the information is accurate and vetted? You'd rather have a bunch of people who (like you said about yourself) have no idea what they are talking about discuss this stuff?
That forum would be the only forum that the aforementioned good players would visit, and therefore render all other SC2 forums to be the digital ghettos of bad players. If you want to purge TL of people like me completely, this would be the best way of doing so.
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On September 21 2010 05:12 Easy772 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 05:05 Koukalaka wrote:On September 21 2010 05:03 Easy772 wrote:
How about we require a link to a players profile or require members to post their accurate ELO? This way bronzies and other noobs could still post, but you would know how much to value an opinion from such a low ranking player. Player's profile? As I said previously, I have access to about 4-7~ accounts which are all 1400-1600 P/T/Z players and I, myself, play 1500 Protoss and all I do is 4 gate every game. Rating =/= Skill Rating =/= Intellect Rating =/= Knowledge Elitism is a plague of many games, don't let it affect SC2 as well. So how would we accurately obtain a players ELO then? I want "lowbies" to be able to post, I would also like to know the rank of the people giving out advice as if they know everything about the game. This is coming from a ~1000 Protoss (Im not trying to be an elitist as I know I am not great)
You can't. That's the entire point.
My point is even if something like this was implemented ... I could give my TL forum account, with access to post in special areas, to friends and they could troll/post idiotic comments and there's nothing TL can do outside of banning me. There really is nothing you can do.
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On September 21 2010 05:14 Koukalaka wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 05:12 Easy772 wrote:On September 21 2010 05:05 Koukalaka wrote:On September 21 2010 05:03 Easy772 wrote:
How about we require a link to a players profile or require members to post their accurate ELO? This way bronzies and other noobs could still post, but you would know how much to value an opinion from such a low ranking player. Player's profile? As I said previously, I have access to about 4-7~ accounts which are all 1400-1600 P/T/Z players and I, myself, play 1500 Protoss and all I do is 4 gate every game. Rating =/= Skill Rating =/= Intellect Rating =/= Knowledge Elitism is a plague of many games, don't let it affect SC2 as well. So how would we accurately obtain a players ELO then? I want "lowbies" to be able to post, I would also like to know the rank of the people giving out advice as if they know everything about the game. This is coming from a ~1000 Protoss (Im not trying to be an elitist as I know I am not great) You can't. That's the entire point. My point is even if something like this was implemented ... I could give my TL forum account, with access to post in special areas, to friends and they could troll/post idiotic comments and there's nothing TL can do outside of banning me. There really is nothing you can do.
LOL, nevermind then. I guess this is kind of pointless unless anyone has bright idea...
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this is really needed to make the forums worth reading once you get better
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+1 im 1.4k diamond and reading some of tls post depresses me now.
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EDIT: Basically down below is a good/bad of why / why not implement this =)
EDIT 2: was on bottom of page 6, deleted and reposted here
On September 21 2010 04:01 Mantikor wrote: Much like the wow forum Arena Junkies, you link your TL identity to your bnet acct. It would remove some of the anonymity, as well as allow for some REALLY good theorizing.
http://www.arenajunkies.com/forums.php
is the site he's talking about....
hmmm
cuz on Arena Junkies.. they had a "Ask a Gladiator" section where only the people who got 2600 rated (Gladiator title) where able to post there
but it was based on the WoW armory (wowarmory.com), not at all Your account.
so, with this in mind... it means any troll (not giving out ideas, just saying why it doesnt always work) could pick some 1300 diamond player that apparently doesn't know about TL (i've seen some people) and use their score to be able to post
---------------
HOWEVER! Back to my original thought when i said hmmm::
if this was to happen... imo the post would / should still include your TL name (ID, whatever), but just use the score of the "linked" account... aka, it doesnt show who's account you're using.
this WOULD keep the anonymous part of the intertnetz safe to people. Which is good.
Part Dos:
Use sc2ranks.com ... why? because it seems to be the most easily accessible and most frequently updated with ALSO having tons of data.
This idea is great in many ways:
1. It "stops" most of the "OMG WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!" in threads of this section (mostly), aka, Keep discussion threads mostly about discussion, not flames
2. It gives the readers a good idea of what the "good" players are thinking about
3. Lastly, it would probably encourage people like Qxc and others who feel it pointless-to-post to come back and maybe put their view on things into the mix if ideas (i say Qxc cuz his name was mentioned in the OP)
4. Might motivate people to get to 1500, 1600, etc Diamond (1200 is eh, i played for 3 months of RTS and am almost that high) to feel "accomplished"
Contrary, it would cause some problems:
1. The platinum players who are technically diamond, or other players who have REALLY great insight can't post there yet
2. Would make the other TL users "left out in the dust" if all the diamond players stopped using the general forums or whatever - turning the "old" forums into B.net equiv. in terms of garbage output
3. Discourage players from posting on TL with the sense of "oh no one cares about the forums i can post in, why bother?!"
Final Thoughts:
Constructive discussions are boss no matter WHAT subject you're talking... but having an entire forum section to people only 1500 Diamond (or only B+ and higher on iCCup) seems a bit risky, especially since the TL community grew so much with SC2
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On September 21 2010 05:15 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
+1 im 1.4k diamond and reading some of tls post depresses me now.
D+ on iccup
No. This is a stupid idea and i doubt if the idea will ever even be entertained by those in position to implement it.
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i think its a good idea, but setting a certain amount of points as the limit might not be the best idea as there is a huge point inflation going on.
i voted for no public write, as other people should definitely be able to read the ongoing discussion in order to learn from them.
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There's no "logical" way you could do this.
If you only let people with a "known" name post you're leaving out 90% of people who might actually be good but don't get coverage.
If you only let people with X+ rating post, you're opening the opportunity for accounts to be passed around.
If you forceably ban anyone who speaks about balance, you're initiating a quasi-autocratic communist forum and TLs reputation will be even more hurt than it is, as some say, with all these "WoW players".
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On September 21 2010 05:14 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 05:06 TechDeft wrote:
So you DON'T want a forum that you can go and read and be confident that 90%+ of the information is accurate and vetted? You'd rather have a bunch of people who (like you said about yourself) have no idea what they are talking about discuss this stuff? That forum would be the only forum that the aforementioned good players would visit, and therefore render all other SC2 forums to be the digital ghettos of bad players. If you want to purge TL of people like me completely, this would be the best way of doing so.
How would it purge people? We would still be reading it. We would still be learning. We could still create valid discussions in the main area of the forums.
You either
A) Don't understand how a forum community works
B) Are retarded
C) All of the above
And what are you worried about? You can't contribute anything right now anyway, because as you stated, you don't KNOW anything.
So how would the forum change for you? It wouldn't. People can still come read strategy discussions, and in the regular forum, people can still do 8 posts a day about T imbaness or Void Ray rush problems.
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On September 21 2010 05:07 vrok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 04:01 Mantikor wrote:edit: case and point On September 21 2010 04:05 vrok wrote:
1200 points? No way. At least over 9000. The irony of this would be that I'm actually higher ranked than you even though I have like 400 unused bonus points as I'm waiting for the patch to ladder. :D
Actually, the irony of this is that i'm pointing out how within minutes of making any post, garbage replies flood in. No where in there did i mention anything about you being higher ranked than me, and really i dgaf. But thanks for playing.
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On September 21 2010 05:20 Koukalaka wrote:
There's no "logical" way you could do this.
If you only let people with a "known" name post you're leaving out 90% of people who might actually be good but don't get coverage.
If you only let people with X+ rating post, you're opening the opportunity for accounts to be passed around.
If you forceably ban anyone who speaks about balance, you're initiating a quasi-autocratic communist forum and TLs reputation will be even more hurt than it is, as some say, with all these "WoW players".
Why not allowed hidden posts to the forum where the "pros" could see but not the general populace, allowing them to pick and chose worthwhile questions or discussions to unhide and respond to.
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On September 21 2010 05:21 TechDeft wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 05:14 bonifaceviii wrote:On September 21 2010 05:06 TechDeft wrote:
So you DON'T want a forum that you can go and read and be confident that 90%+ of the information is accurate and vetted? You'd rather have a bunch of people who (like you said about yourself) have no idea what they are talking about discuss this stuff? That forum would be the only forum that the aforementioned good players would visit, and therefore render all other SC2 forums to be the digital ghettos of bad players. If you want to purge TL of people like me completely, this would be the best way of doing so. How would it purge people? We would still be reading it. We would still be learning. We could still create valid discussions in the main area of the forums. You either A) Don't understand how a forum community works B) Are retarded C) All of the above And what are you worried about? You can't contribute anything right now anyway, because as you stated, you don't KNOW anything. So how would the forum change for you? It wouldn't. People can still come read strategy discussions, and in the regular forum, people can still do 8 posts a day about T imbaness or Void Ray rush problems.
rofl. just shat my pants.
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I think this thread pretty clearly points out that the real problem is that many in this community dont know how to respect each other. And no a seperate forum will not fix that.
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8748 Posts
On September 21 2010 05:01 ShadowWolf wrote:ArenaJunkies is not a good site on which to base a website - and, really, other websites shouldn't be trying to make themselves similar to AJ. As a case in point, try searching for a strategy for Lock/Shaman/Druid ( LSD ). 9/10 posts in the high-rating section are either trolls or the nonsense about instant-globaling people. Or try to find information on DK/Lock/Druid ( Shadowcleave ) - an unpopular composition that is still played here & there has basically no threads, with quite a few of the posts on the topic coming from people who haven't ever played the team before. It's more difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff because it's difficult to know whether a person has any real experience or is just trollin' you hard. e.g. once I asked for Mage/Lock/Druid ( MLD ) assistance and got "Lol global people" - not to say that MLD is the pinnacle of complexity and skill at all, but it's a lot more involved than that unless you want to sit at the 1800 level all season. Take, for example: http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=205545http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=205572http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=205446Nor does having an "elitist" section actually eliminate bad threads as such: http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=202376http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=204173Here's an example where there's a thread having some great replies and some absolutely garbage replies - Just like TL.net's Starcraft 2 strategy section! http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=203138Now, granted, every time a pro player posts you get at least some noise of people agreeing or disagreeing just based on it being who it is, but I think Sheth's thread here showed that just 'cuz you haven't won a major tournament doesn't mean you are incapable of contributing: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133023A lot of people in that thread pointed out some nuances that either Sheth maybe didn't realize he did or things he could add to the build to make it better. I don't play Zerg, really, so I have absolutely no clue how good the build is - but Sheth's a good player and the post today is better than it was when he first posted it. Maybe all those players are equivalent of 1200 diamond players today, but based on the questions I seriously doubt it. Plus 1200 isn't exactly the pinnacle of game knowledge. I've beaten players that are in the 1200 point range today that didn't use control groups, didn't rally new units to the fight, and had no capacity to transition even if their all-in kinda worked but didn't totally beat me down. The problem is that writing strategies requires a lot more than just being skilled at the game; I think there are probably people in the 1700 and higher ratings that would be the worst person ever to give you advice. It's really challenging to communicate game sense, timings, and thought processes. It takes a very particular set of skills that most of the high level community ( quite frankly ) doesn't appear to posses. You can most assuredly be the greatest player in the world but have no real capacity to teach anyone to get even out of Gold - sometimes people just can't empathize with someone who doesn't have the skillset and knowledge they have. To be honest, it's perfect fine, but it doesn't help build a solid community.
Can you compare AJ's strategy discussion to some other WoW Aarena forum's strategy discussion that does not have rating requirements and show that AJ isn't any better?
AJ doesn't have to be a perfect forum in order to prove that its methods are in its best interests.
And it's unreasonable to expect a strategy forum to provide excellent responses to any question you throw at it. If I think something is a bad idea and I know most people will agree with me, it's better if I don't waste any effort giving a long explanation why it's a bad idea. I can say "don't do that strat it sucks" and when everyone else reads that thread and agrees w/ me, they won't bump it just to say that they agree with me. They let it die. So it dies and that's all you see is one guy asking a question, one expert saying "no lol!" and nothing else. But you have to respect the consensus of top players and let them put effort into discussing more interesting things.
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On September 21 2010 05:23 Archerofaiur wrote:
I think this thread pretty clearly points out that the real problem is that many in this community dont know how to respect each other. And no a seperate forum will not fix that.
Only skimmed a page or two, but yup I agree. The problem isn't skill, rating nor contribution, it's the community as a whole.
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8748 Posts
On September 21 2010 05:23 Archerofaiur wrote:
I think this thread pretty clearly points out that the real problem is that many in this community dont know how to respect each other. And no a seperate forum will not fix that.
I think the problem is that most people don't act in a way that deserves respect.
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On September 21 2010 05:28 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 05:23 Archerofaiur wrote:
I think this thread pretty clearly points out that the real problem is that many in this community dont know how to respect each other. And no a seperate forum will not fix that. I think the problem is that most people don't act in a way that deserves respect.
Isnt that kinda the same thing?
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EPT
