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DaemonX
545 Posts
On September 16 2010 17:21 Alpina wrote: Yer, I don't play T and probably never will but...no. Turning SC2 into WoW arena 'balance'? No. Thank. You.Imagine this screenshot if he would be on gold minerals^^ There should be a limit to 1 mule per command center can be casted and not more. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On September 17 2010 05:40 Pyre wrote: Mules let T be ahead in income of a equal base zerg or protoss all game. Watch 99% of replays and see their income tab. More drones/probes cost minerals, after 16 workers mining efficiency drops in half. I haven't tested but I bet 16 scv's with a mule mines faster then 24 drones or probes. So terran is getting more income and spent 400 less minerals on their economy. That sounds balanced and fair to you? spawn lavra = completely unforgiving, miss 1 and you are behind chrono boost = nice in theory but upgrades and units have a built in extra build time mules = always ahead in income no real downside for being late on using them, 2 other great alternatives as well. On September 17 2010 07:32 Karkadinn wrote: Hmm. Protoss get a research speed boosting ability, so their research times are longer by default. Zerg get movement speed boosting creep, so their units are slower by default. Terran get a mineral boosting ability, and their units have... good cost efficiency? Something doesn't add up here. <.< This sums up the argument quite nicely. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10498 Posts
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PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
On September 20 2010 06:15 in7e.sCream wrote: In BW, tvp was just like that. Protoss was strong during 0 - 4 min, then terran had an attack window from 5 - 10 min depending on how fast the toss exped, etc, etc. oh, nobody would complain if it was like BW where it shifed back and forth and was pretty balanced once lategame hits. but right now, in TvP: early game is only survivable for toss if the terran allows it (or makes misstakes). mid game, if the terran was 'stupid' enough to let the toss get there is actualy pretty balanced. then lategame hits and now it is the other way around... and the longer it goes the more it favors toss. i would not call that 'balanced' by any means, sorry. On September 20 2010 06:13 Kaptein[konijn] wrote: How has it been debunked? It's a fact that when neither the terran and protoss cheese or sacrifice economy for a rush, the protoss is always ahead in worker count AND can utilize every single one of them for mining purposes. Terran has fewer workers and loses 2-5 of them to building, repairing, etc. it has been debunked in so far that the bonus from chronoboost, if only used on the nexus, is a laughable 22.5%, wich means that a Toss with 30 probes will be a full 4 probes ahead of a terran. and that is if the toss only uses the chronoboost on the nexus, nothing else. those 4 probes and even the ones used to build, are easy made up with the MULE's. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On September 20 2010 09:59 FlaShFTW wrote: guys, think about it. zerg with larva spwan gives u not only drones, but OTHER UNITS!!! dont make only 3 ultras, make like 6 ultras. chorno boost doesnt only boost out probes, how ab out a phoenix??? mule cant do shit to units popping out, so mule may b OP by like 300 minerals, but they cant halpe faster unit production, which is why its a fair trade. u cant make more units... but the time will be too long those minerals are used to throw down multiple production buildings. terran are one of the best reinforcing races in the game if macroed well. | ||
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Miller
United States77 Posts
On September 20 2010 09:59 FlaShFTW wrote: guys, think about it. zerg with larva spwan gives u not only drones, but OTHER UNITS!!! dont make only 3 ultras, make like 6 ultras. chorno boost doesnt only boost out probes, how ab out a phoenix??? mule cant do shit to units popping out, so mule may b OP by like 300 minerals, but they cant halpe faster unit production, which is why its a fair trade. u cant make more units... but the time will be too long lol you just owned yourself... Not only do zerg have to make drones with that limited larva, but they also have to make UNITS. They can't miss any larva injects, or they are behind. If a queen dies they are behind. Terran is never behind, Mules have no downside how can you not understand this. The Zerg equivalent of this would be getting larva inject every 25 energy no matter what so you could stack 3 or 4 larva injects. Even then you wouldn't have the econ to use all the larva. Or letting P use multiple chronos stack all at once. The mule is imbalanced quit denying it with half ass arguments. At least make a legitimate point if you can even find one.. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On September 20 2010 10:46 Miller wrote: lol you just owned yourself... Not only do zerg have to make drones with that limited larva, but they also have to make UNITS. They can't miss any larva injects, or they are behind. If a queen dies they are behind. Terran is never behind, Mules have no downside how can you not understand this. The Zerg equivalent of this would be getting larva inject every 25 energy no matter what so you could stack 3 or 4 larva injects. Even then you wouldn't have the econ to use all the larva. Or letting P use multiple chronos stack all at once. The mule is imbalanced quit denying it with half ass arguments. At least make a legitimate point if you can even find one.. god, my brain hurts. thank god most of you retards never touched brood war in any meaningful way. do you really think this is the way mechanics interact with each other? | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On September 20 2010 10:32 PulseSUI wrote: it has been debunked in so far that the bonus from chronoboost, if only used on the nexus, is a laughable 22.5%, wich means that a Toss with 30 probes will be a full 4 probes ahead of a terran. and that is if the toss only uses the chronoboost on the nexus, nothing else. those 4 probes and even the ones used to build, are easy made up with the MULE's. this math cant be accurate. there's no way protoss can only squeeze out 34 probes to the terran's 30 | ||
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
Chrono boost isnt like this and a cooldown would kill it. Chrono boost does not have to be used every X seconds in order to be optimized. I can let my nexus get up to 100 then chrono out 2 zealots, warpgate research and a probe if i want to, or i can whore it on probes the second my nexus hits 25. The strategy im using might call for saving, or it might call for spending. Limiting what a player can do with this ability is really quite stupid since it actually has some neat decision making associated with it (nexus, zealots or warpgate research?, colossus, or colossus range? do i finish my +1 weapons or do i get my VR a bit faster?) MULE/SL are much more straightforward. If I miss chrono, it might be sloppiness (in which case i dont get that unit/upgrade now, and am punished, or it could be strategic (saving for that specific research, unit etc). The game shouldnt be punishing good creative play and it shouldnt make a dynamic interesting ability (prolly the only semi-good macro mechanic) boring and repetitive. It kills me when i see people calling for a cooldown on chrono boost since that kills the entire point of it. MULEs yes, Chrono, no. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Abdiel
52 Posts
On September 20 2010 11:06 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: i really love the notion of "if a terran doesnt spend his energy on mules he can just pound them out later at no loss" as if having those minerals sooner is completely irrelevant as long as you reach the same total in the end Okay. So since missing a mule drop will harm your economy either way, why not add a cooldown in order to punish this even further? That way playing terran will be as demanding as playing zerg. | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
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pieisamazing
United States1234 Posts
On September 16 2010 17:23 klauz619 wrote: They don't magically pop up minerals and just make you mine out faster, it's just 300 minerals sped up to you. Let's make probes harvest vespene gas at 20 per trip instead of 4. It's okay, though, their geysers will be depleted faster so it's balanced. | ||
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PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
On September 20 2010 10:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: this math cant be accurate. there's no way protoss can only squeeze out 34 probes to the terran's 30 below two quotes. they are accurate and can be read on page 11 of this very topic. Ok, lets just set the numbers straight here on (Wiki)Chrono Boost. Each Nexus can CB every 44.44 seconds for a 20s duration (.5625 (Wiki)Energy per second). CB increases production by 50%. This is a 22.5% production boost on one building. Twenty Two Point Five Percent. There is no double production speed or 2 probes per 1 scv, or even 3:2. Now with that out of the way, have fun trying to macro out of multiple asynchronous warpgates (both from different unit timers and CB) without losing build time and microing units and their spells. Going by those numbers, Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm only doing some napkin maths * Chrono boost reduces build time to 66.67% for 20seconds * Nexus can Chrono boost every 44.44seconds, therefore, Chronoboost can be up for 27seconds of every minute So, Chronoboost, if constantly used on a single Nexus, over 60seconds, reduces the effective build time of all units (assuming constant production) to 85%. To saturate a single base you need 30scv's. This means it takes Terran 510seconds to real full SVC saturation and Protoss 433.5seconds (slightly quicker or slower depending on how the last 13.5 seconds line up with the Chronoboost). So this means when Protoss reaches full saturation (30 Probes), Terran will have 26 SVC's. So effectively, it's 26 SVC's to 30 Probes assuming constant Chrono boosting on a nexus. TL;DR : Assuming Constant Chronoboosting on a single Nexus by a single Nexus, SVC to Probe ratio will be 13:15. Assuming 1 mule = 4 Harvesters (180 per 60seconds), Mules dwarf the contribution of constant Chrono boosting on a nexus for Probe production (not using a single Chronoboost on tech, only Nexus, everytime it's up) non stop building, toss using CB everytime it is up, a toss will have 4 probes more once 30 probes are hit. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 20 2010 12:00 PulseSUI wrote: below two quotes. they are accurate and can be read on page 11 of this very topic. non stop building, toss using CB everytime it is up, a toss will have 4 probes more once 30 probes are hit. The napkin math misses the fact that Terran loses 2 SCV build cycles in order to build the Orbital Command. So in reality it takes 545 game seconds to reach saturation, not 510. So when Protoss has 34 probes, Terran will have 28 SCVs. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
This perfectly sums up the direction this thread is going. ![[image loading]](http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1473/36600085.png) The thread has no real merit. It consists of an observation (Mules are really strong), cites a public consensus (Terran is probably overpowered), and then proceeds to go nowhere. Yes, terran is really strong, and yes, so are Mules. So fucking what? You know what else is strong? Banshees. And Marines. And Marauder. And hellions. And tanks. And thors. And reapers, omg they are so strong. Obviously nerfing any relevant variable could cause terran to be less strong. If I nerfed marines, terran would be less strong. If I removed banshees, terran would be less strong. Does that mean I should make a thread about how banshees are intrinsically break the game? Any advocate for a specific nerf needs not to pinpoint how his topic is "strong", and how if it were theoretically "less strong", the race would be "less overpowered". Because making any relevant terran unit weaker would cause the race to be "less overpowered". Duh. To prove that a single unit is an "imbalanced", you need to prove how the relative strength or role of a unit restricts or expands too many gameplay options for a given race, or there opponent in an atypical way. In the case of the Mule, despite the fact that the thread has now reached twenty two pages, no valid reasoning for imbalance has been given. In order to prove that the Mule is imbalanced, someone needs to show how the advantage Mules give allow terran too many options that can be reasonably dealt with, or allows terran to excessively restrict the opponents possible actions. In this case is the terran economy so inordinately strong that they restrict the possible actions of another race in too severe of a way? Or in other words, Terran is too strong because they have the strongest economy, and they can call down a bunch of Mules to get a lot minerals. The clear answer to the above is bullshit. That is not why terran might be overpowered, and that is not the subject of a single high level consensus. The other possible argument you could make is that the terran macro-management, due to the relative ease of the Mule, requires too little attention and is an imbalancing factor. This is even more unarguably bullshit because Terran macromanagement as a whole is as hard as zerg, protoss being the easiest, that being the principal consensus of the many high level players including Idra, Artosis, and Machine, as of the end of beta interviews. I think I need to make a thread to educate the forums what constitutes an imbalance. Sorry, comparing two dependent mechanics from two desperate races in a vacuum while ignoring the context in which they exist is not enough. Maybe for Pokemon. The current direction of this thread is very narrow, it just compares 1 gameplay mechanic to a random other gameplay mechanic. Well, obviously, they are not equal, because Starcraft has different races with different gameplay, surprisingly enough. | ||
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BiOAtK
United States13 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 20 2010 12:20 BiOAtK wrote: Don't forget that it also doesn't include MULE usage. In that napkin math, the nexus uses all of it's energy but the OC is still saving it all up. Right that's the point. The idea is to figure out how many times Protoss needs to chrono to be on par with a Terran who is MULEing every time (assuming the MULE is worth ~4 SCVs). The original math says that you need enough chrono boosts to be 4 probes ahead in order to catch up to a Terran who is MULEing. But the fact that Terran already falls behind by 2 to build his OC means you only need to chrono out 2 extra probes. I could be off, but I believe that's doable before your Cyber even finishes, assuming you don't chrono your first zealot. | ||
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
The napkin math misses the fact that Terran loses 2 SCV build cycles in order to build the Orbital Command. So in reality it takes 545 game seconds to reach saturation, not 510. So when Protoss has 34 probes, Terran will have 28 SCVs. Still the difference in their unit production is a LOT closer than most of the terrans in this thread want you to believe. The main thing is mules are good if you have zero miners or full saturation. A couple extra probes when you already have 20+ mining is a negligible income gain. | ||
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