EPTThanks for reading.
"Random" 2v2--how does this work?
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DarkSeerTurbo
United States105 Posts
Thanks for reading. | ||
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theonlyrio
United Kingdom200 Posts
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leve15
United States301 Posts
I heard they were going to fix this... | ||
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Vz0
Canada378 Posts
it still 2v2.... | ||
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Zevah
Argentina187 Posts
On August 26 2010 15:59 Vz0 wrote: er why does this matter? it still 2v2.... What he said!. Premades have an advantage, they can speak with each-other and bla bla bla.. .but it's not like they start with 10 workers while you start with 6.... and you should be able to communicate with your partner too... The problem for me is when i get a bronze player or someone who is trying new races or builds as a team-mate and they don't care if they win or lose while i'm really trying to win xD but there is nothing you can do to prevent this besides getting a premade team yourself. | ||
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Essentia
1150 Posts
LITERALLY 90 percent of my 2v2 RT matchups are versus an AT team. | ||
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peterius
33 Posts
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dagene
United States75 Posts
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Cytokinesis
Canada330 Posts
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10or10
Sweden517 Posts
On August 27 2010 17:28 peterius wrote: Not just this. You can also find sometimes that you'll get a 2v2 random game and there's like a diamond and a bronze and two people unranked doing their placement matches. Its like they put no thought at all into their "unrivaled AutoMatch technology". << from the box. Their AutoMatch technology is probably best suited for 1v1. I had always assumed they used separate ladders for random and arranged teams (until we met a random team a couple of days ago) since my arranged team gets placed as a team, but how does that work for you random players? The random players must have individual ladder placements, right? | ||
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Esp1noza
Russian Federation481 Posts
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Error Ash
Germany177 Posts
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
On August 27 2010 19:34 Error Ash wrote: This may sound cocky... but just don't play alone? I really don't unterstand why people play team games, don't communicate with their team members but rather play for themselves and then they complain when they lose (this is not necessarily directed at OP, have seen this sooooo many times also in other games)... Just grab some friends... It's much more fun anyways. Because friends arent always online, or you dont have any friends that play sc2, but you'd still like to try 2v2? Wouldnt mind if i played against other people who also got paired randomly. AT teams usually just rush with 40 t1 units and you cant really do anything against that. | ||
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Dakota_Fanning
Hungary2347 Posts
Just think of it this way: even if they win, they don't win points over an RT, because they are in a different league/division. All RT team players are in the same shoes, and all AT team players are in the same shoes. What matters is that you're not the only RT player who plays occasionally versus AT but all RT players. And your points are compared to the points of other RT players. The AT team might have an advantage and might win more games, but they are also compared to only other AT teams and not to RT teams. | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
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KwarK
United States42481 Posts
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DarkSeerTurbo
United States105 Posts
On August 27 2010 19:34 Error Ash wrote: This may sound cocky... but just don't play alone? I really don't unterstand why people play team games, don't communicate with their team members but rather play for themselves and then they complain when they lose (this is not necessarily directed at OP, have seen this sooooo many times also in other games)... Just grab some friends... It's much more fun anyways. I do play team games with friends in real life. Your point, however, is a bit meaningless (no offense) as there are plenty of reasons why you cannot play with your real friends all the time. Just on top of my head... (can't believe I would even have to mention this as they're common sense) 1. Your friends are not online and you do not feel like playing 1v1 2. Your friends are not at your level and you lose against players you know you can beat 3. You want to play with other people and play as advertised: Random etc. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
1) As long as your AMM rating is equall you have an even fight. 2) Arranged teams have an edge if it comes to rating because they can improve not only in mechanics, macro, micro but in cooperation as well. But they are not in the ladder for random 2v2's, they have their separate ladder. That said I usually feal like me and my partner are usually better at mechanics than our fixed opponents, but they have usually better coordinated early strategies. Once the game passes 10 minutes mark without damage being done we usually have an advantage. | ||
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Doomgaze
Sweden89 Posts
That's just on top of having evolved team play, communiation and strategy. Random and AT needs to be separated, now. | ||
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
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Hikari
1914 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On August 27 2010 21:17 Doomgaze wrote: Uh being able to go into 2v2 with a good race combination as opposed to playing with a random combination, how is it not an advantage? That's just on top of having evolved team play, communiation and strategy. Random and AT needs to be separated, now. What is a good race combination? | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
Arranged team vs random team is inherently uneven, and unfair. It doesn't change anything if you have a 50% chance of winning. You could also make matchups be a coin toss for the players if you just adjusted the cost of all the units. Would that be fair, even if it resulted in a 50% chance of winning? I don't think so. | ||
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Vexx
United States462 Posts
Most random teams will not be using their microphones either so I'm not sure an argument can be made there about communication. Sure, they have the ability to. But most don't have their mic setup and there is definitely no time to do it in game. I obviously think the decision to match random and arranged teams is stupid. I think it removes the element of a fair playing field even if the matchmaking system does its best to rank players that have a 50% chance of winning. The biggest issue I have is psychological. Beating random teams silly is boring and abusive. Losing to arranged teams is frustrating. | ||
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AndyJay
Australia833 Posts
On August 27 2010 22:44 Vexx wrote:The biggest issue I have is psychological. Beating random teams silly is boring and abusive. Losing to arranged teams is frustrating. I think this is he problem. The matchmaking system should factor in the ability difference but really at the end of the day it feels pointless to play vs arranged teams. It leaves me with no motivation to continue with solo 2v2 after the 4th double proxy gateways in a row. It was fine in wc3, just like chat, clans and region select were fine in wc3. If it's not broken... FACEBOOK INTEGRATION. | ||
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Escape
Canada306 Posts
However, 2) It is fair because everyone else playing 2v2 ladder faces the same issue and imbalance. Therefore, 3) Overall, it shouldn't affect your ladder ranking. | ||
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
On August 27 2010 23:15 Escape wrote: However, 2) It is fair because everyone else playing 2v2 ladder faces the same issue and imbalance. Therefore, 3) Overall, it shouldn't affect your ladder ranking. sry, but these points are plain retarded. i couldnt care less for my ladder rank if i got fun and balanced matches.... | ||
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Esp1noza
Russian Federation481 Posts
On August 27 2010 20:50 KwarK wrote: If they're equally skilled then a premade team will obviously have an advantage over two random guys. If teams equally skilled then obviously their skill is equal. | ||
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bbulzibar
United States80 Posts
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Graven
United States314 Posts
Edit: ^^ The post above explains it perfectly, I'm just tired of writing out that answer, haha. | ||
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VonLego
United States519 Posts
On August 27 2010 20:34 Deadlyfish wrote: Because friends arent always online, or you dont have any friends that play sc2, but you'd still like to try 2v2? Wouldnt mind if i played against other people who also got paired randomly. AT teams usually just rush with 40 t1 units and you cant really do anything against that. Unfortunately there are no channels as of yet, but you can pick up some TL players to arrange team with any time you want. Can't be too hard -- find a few that are enjoyable to talk to and play with and stick with them. Play with their friends, etc. | ||
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Escape
Canada306 Posts
On August 27 2010 23:23 Lucius2 wrote: sry, but these points are plain retarded. i couldnt care less for my ladder rank if i got fun and balanced matches.... I guess you should play custom 2v2 games then. you big silly. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On August 28 2010 01:04 bbulzibar wrote: Think about it this way. Me and my partner are gold level players. Because we are an AT, we effectively play at a Platinum level (because of we have good teamwork). Now, really, we don't deserve to be there, but since we are an AT we have an 'advantage'. Therefore, we are placed and now playing in a platinum division, getting placed against RT platinum folks. These people may be a RT, but since their level of play is so much higher, they are still effectively Platinum Level, while we are effectively Platinum level as well. Therefore, it is a very competitive match-up, and balanced. No it isn't. You're going into this with the advantage of: 1) Picking your partner and 2) Potentially deciding on very specific strategies against various matchups. RT vs AT is never fair, even if it results in a 50% win rate. One side has access to tools that the other side does not. FAIR means both sides are subject to exactly the same rules, which is not the case here. How about this, you're a gold level player right? Why not face off against me but make all my units move 20% slower. Would that be "fair" if it results in a 50% win rate? No, of course not. It's not just about win rate, it's about both sides going into a match with the same set of rules! | ||
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looknohands119
United States815 Posts
So in conclusion, either stop bitching and whining (especially in a way that misleads others about the quality of Blizzard's product) and grow a pair or don't play group randoms. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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DarkSeerTurbo
United States105 Posts
Bob and Susie are friends. They both have 10 wins 10 losses. They played all 20 games together, but without ventrillo or a mic. On their 21st game they get mics and vent. Coordination is further increased. Peter and Jerry have never met each other and don't know each other. They both have 10 wins 10 losses and are an RT team on their 21st matchup against Bob and Susie. B.net pairs them up. The teams are even, on paper, but in essence they are not. Familiarity and coordination are not factored into the matchmaking. Saying that the match is even just because B.net pairs you up from your past record is ignorant thinking. Also, the post saying to just "grow a pair" is probably the dumbest post in this thread. If Blizzard advertises 2v2 RANDOM, then it should be random. All the features are already in place to make it work on B.net. B.net logs, for example, all the games you have played with friends (think placement). If you have played more than 1 game with someone, you should not be able to enter a RANDOM game with them. Simple concept. | ||
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gauauu
United States47 Posts
On August 28 2010 04:35 DarkSeerTurbo wrote: Familiarity and coordination are not factored into the matchmaking. Ah, but they are, and that's what people have been trying to say. Because it's all about wins, if If Bob and Susie have approximately the same MMR as Peter and Jerry, but have an advantage, then their MMR takes that advantage into account. Ok, a ridiculously contrived example: Let's say someone has only 1 arm. That's a big disadvantage. Let's say they are really good at SC, but their apm is low because of the 1 arm. Now let's say they make it into platinum. They shouldn't then whine that 2 armed people have an advantage in platinum over them -- the system doesn't care whether you have 1 arm or 2, it only cares how well you've played. Platinum 2 armed people play as well as our 1-armed friend. If our friend had 2 arms, he'd probably be high diamond. "Fair?" who cares -- life isn't fair. This is about playing opponents who will be closely matched with you. And that will occur in this scenario. It's the same way in our 2v2s. Who cares if it isn't "fair"...I care about playing a closely matched game. I don't care what supposed advantages/disadvantages they have, I just care about whether it will be a good game. | ||
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Pking
Sweden142 Posts
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
What would you be complaining about if you played other random teams but the queue time was 5+ minutes between games? Keep it the same is my opinion. | ||
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InTriX
United Kingdom149 Posts
Edit should say sometimes they are gold. | ||
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soverRR
Sweden348 Posts
AT vs RT just isn't fun, no matter which side you're on, for the simple fact that it isn't fair. A team knowing each other's playstyle and being able to coordinate their gameplay is just so much more powerful than meeting up with a random player - who maybe doesn't communicate at all - that there's really no logic in making them use the same gamesearching pool. | ||
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
On August 28 2010 06:13 Kralic wrote: This is a slight issue, but whatever everyone you are laddering against in your league/division has to go through the same hoops as you. I hope they keep it this way for when I am bored and deciding to do random team games that my queue time is kept to a mininum. What would you be complaining about if you played other random teams but the queue time was 5+ minutes between games? Keep it the same is my opinion. so then why are my waiting times for 2v2 like 5 mins and 3v3 and 4v4 like 8-10+ mins (all high diamond)? only to get roflstomped by teams? | ||
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Jaug
Sweden249 Posts
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excess
Germany24 Posts
and if u go further in this "fairness" rules, then u can say: its unfair to let someone play against older oponent, because older one has more experience from other rtsgames. he can use this experience and the younger cant. or one has better hardware, better eyes, good weather and so on. its just stupid at some point. its just impossible to make it 100% even. therefore there is a system wich rates this wins and loses dependend on how uneven this match was. i have no problem with loosing 2 points to AT, but im happy to win 30 points from this AT. even with ratio of 1/10 my only one win is worth 30 points and 10 looses r worth 20 points so im at 30/20. | ||
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Zegu
Canada52 Posts
On August 26 2010 15:55 DarkSeerTurbo wrote: Hey guys so out of nowhere I decide to play random 2v2 league matches. My last 3 random 2v2 games were losses. After the game was over I checked out the players profiles and turns out the 2 players knew each other, which was disappointing since, I thought this was supposed to be RANDOM. How are people getting away with this and what can I do to avoid arranged teams? Thanks for reading. RT play AT in multiplayer games, however they are not on the same ladder | ||
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Carthage
105 Posts
Team games are dead to me, I can't play silly because there is hardly any time to do anything neat, and I can't play seriously because my allies don't understand even the base fundamentals of the game. 1v1 is just stressful and also not fun at all. With team games being awful, and 1v1 being awful, I have nothing left that's fun in SC2 :\ | ||
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nextstep
Canada705 Posts
you're not supposed to win every game. thanks to blizzard's match making system, with my arranged team, i win 50%, with RT i win 50%. in the end, it's the same result. and plus, i'd rather play vs an AT of slightly lower skill level, than a RT of higher skill level. i lose more to diamond+diamond randoms, than plat+plat (or even plat+diamond) arranged. ---- and the aspect about you getting a "newer player" as a partner. i find i for every one of those, i get a pro the next game. so like i said, it balances out. | ||
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DarkSeerTurbo
United States105 Posts
On August 28 2010 04:58 gauauu wrote: Ah, but they are, and that's what people have been trying to say. Because it's all about wins, if If Bob and Susie have approximately the same MMR as Peter and Jerry, but have an advantage, then their MMR takes that advantage into account. Ok, a ridiculously contrived example: Let's say someone has only 1 arm. That's a big disadvantage. Let's say they are really good at SC, but their apm is low because of the 1 arm. Now let's say they make it into platinum. They shouldn't then whine that 2 armed people have an advantage in platinum over them -- the system doesn't care whether you have 1 arm or 2, it only cares how well you've played. Platinum 2 armed people play as well as our 1-armed friend. If our friend had 2 arms, he'd probably be high diamond. "Fair?" who cares -- life isn't fair. This is about playing opponents who will be closely matched with you. And that will occur in this scenario. It's the same way in our 2v2s. Who cares if it isn't "fair"...I care about playing a closely matched game. I don't care what supposed advantages/disadvantages they have, I just care about whether it will be a good game. Did you even read what I wrote? I clearly address this in my hypothetical example. I made the example just for this same, repeating flawed argument. Read again. Read what happens to Bob and Susie on their 21st match. If you think 10 wins 10 losses vs 10 wins 10 losses in the past ensures an equal match you are fooling yourself. | ||
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Jaug
Sweden249 Posts
On August 28 2010 14:29 Carthage wrote: My last 5 or 6 4v4 games have been against arranged teams with allies who passionately argue that canons into void rays is a perfectly good strategy and other such nonsense. The worst part is, these are considered "even" matches. Team games are dead to me, I can't play silly because there is hardly any time to do anything neat, and I can't play seriously because my allies don't understand even the base fundamentals of the game. 1v1 is just stressful and also not fun at all. With team games being awful, and 1v1 being awful, I have nothing left that's fun in SC2 :\ The thing is, if you play random team vs random team both teams will have good and bad players. Playing RT vs AT the case is often that the AT has no weak players and therefore they win 75% (calculated form 68 45) of the games they are matched vs RT with current system. | ||
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