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On August 25 2010 05:39 Dragonsven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 05:28 gdroxor wrote:On August 25 2010 05:00 B1nary wrote:On August 25 2010 04:53 gdroxor wrote:On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. This. The comparisons are getting stale. No one is saying only old-school players should comment. The OP is saying that if something a top player says contradicts what you (or some 800-Diamond player) is saying, chances are, he's right and you're wrong. Do you disagree with that? New people come here looking for advice, not looking to give it. And it's not like the strategy forums comprises the entirety of TL. My issue is the need for the old guard to constantly revalidate their superiority ad-nauseum. Yes, many have been on the site forever, followed hundreds of BW games, seen the game evolve time and time again. I understand and respect that. What I don't understand is the recurring compulsion to put new members in their place. If you truly believe yourselves to be better, more seasoned players, then why do these threads keep popping up? One would wonder if some of the older members feel threatened by SC2 and its playerbase. You said it better than I ever could. Good post. However, I have been around for a long time like a lot of these guys and it's not a new phenomenon. I wouldn't say they are threatened by the Starcraft 2 player base as much as they are trying to maintain an exclusive community. That is how they built this in the first place because they were not cool in real life but on BW they were Gods. If a "random diamond newb" thinks he knows as much about the game as you then you can't really maintain that illusion. The only problem is that this attitude and the goal of growing the site is in direct opposition to each other.
You seem pretty bitter. It's interesting to note that this account is new and yet you say you've been around for a long time. I believe you. It means you're a previously banned user. What I wonder is how many accounts you've had banned with this sort of attitude.
It's also ironic that a guy who is rude enough to be a PBU is telling the operators of TL how they can increase their site growth and generally run it better  .
On August 25 2010 02:46 Dragonsven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:44 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:41 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:37 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:34 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:33 roofs wrote:On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. I don't think you read the post closely enough. 'this kind of elitism does not work'? He's warning the waves of new SC2 players not to listen to the thousands of mid level diamond players claiming to know everything there is. There's alot of bad information and he's simply telling the truth about how alot of these all-in diamond players havent truly explored the game. He's not saying that, he's saying their opinion doesn't matter and is probably wrong. No, he clearly states that a high ranked player will in 99% cases be right if he contradicts the mid diamond player and that the credentials "I'm in diamond" doesn't really mean much. He even mentioned that lower level players can have valuable insight in the OP. Look, I don't want to argue this all day. I just think it was a post that didn't really need to written. All it results in is insulting some players who just want to theorycraft but now won't because "they're just diamond players." It reeks of elitism. If you were so dumb as to take a random diamond player over a professional gamer's opinion than you are just stupid. You don't need a post telling you not to do that. A lot of posters are stupid and need a post to tell them that. Just have a look in any of the Terran imbalance threads, the quality of some posts is downright absurd. The term 'elitism' gets thrown aroudn a lot, but is it that bad? The most 'elitist' board I've ever found is "Elitist Jerks" which is one of the more pleasant forum experiences as the absolute majority of the posts were worth reading. Much rather have that than the current "I'm a 600p diamond zerg so I know terrans fucking imbalanced ffs". I personally could care less how much or little elitism exists on this forum. But the people who run this site should care very much because it will determine how well they retain new members.
Evidently untrue. You seem to care very much.
OT, thanks Saracen this was nicely written and expressed. It seems to have rubbed some people the wrong way, but I didn't get any elitist sense at all. I felt you were even fairly restrained in trying to explain your point. Well thought out and nicely reasoned. I hope people have generally taken it in the spirit it was offered.
Nicely written pieces like this without straying too deep into emotion is what I really appreciate about Team Liquid 
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uhg, I'am thorn apart from this simple classification...
I A) want to win and B) want to understand the game better. Isnt everyone like that? whether bronze/gold/diamond?
I actually know plat/gold players who do try out stuff and have some sort of strategic understanding of the game.
I dont think these classifications work. Ofc there are some players who cheese/one base all-in alot. but I think this is a minority. most of the players do this (simplification incoming): scout, try a build, see if it works, if yes: do the build again, if no: do a different build or a adjusted build etc. there might be some ppl who actually stick to a build and just do it all over because they get decent winrates with it but I highly doubt that they are more than 10% of the players.
Here on TL its more of a different "problem" if you like. everyone just throws his random idea into discussions (I do that too actually...) because there are sooooooo many posters. but I think its not much of a problem. the good posts/threads allways stand out. they get quoted more often etc etc.
about that interview with qxc... well I experience it way differently. whenever a famous player posts here, everyone is happy and starts asking questions or responds in a positive way. there are trolls here and there but thats ignorable.
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On August 26 2010 12:47 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 05:39 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 05:28 gdroxor wrote:On August 25 2010 05:00 B1nary wrote:On August 25 2010 04:53 gdroxor wrote:On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. This. The comparisons are getting stale. No one is saying only old-school players should comment. The OP is saying that if something a top player says contradicts what you (or some 800-Diamond player) is saying, chances are, he's right and you're wrong. Do you disagree with that? New people come here looking for advice, not looking to give it. And it's not like the strategy forums comprises the entirety of TL. My issue is the need for the old guard to constantly revalidate their superiority ad-nauseum. Yes, many have been on the site forever, followed hundreds of BW games, seen the game evolve time and time again. I understand and respect that. What I don't understand is the recurring compulsion to put new members in their place. If you truly believe yourselves to be better, more seasoned players, then why do these threads keep popping up? One would wonder if some of the older members feel threatened by SC2 and its playerbase. You said it better than I ever could. Good post. However, I have been around for a long time like a lot of these guys and it's not a new phenomenon. I wouldn't say they are threatened by the Starcraft 2 player base as much as they are trying to maintain an exclusive community. That is how they built this in the first place because they were not cool in real life but on BW they were Gods. If a "random diamond newb" thinks he knows as much about the game as you then you can't really maintain that illusion. The only problem is that this attitude and the goal of growing the site is in direct opposition to each other. You seem pretty bitter. It's interesting to note that this account is new and yet you say you've been around for a long time. I believe you. It means you're a previously banned user. What I wonder is how many accounts you've had banned with this sort of attitude. It's also ironic that a guy who is rude enough to be a PBU is telling the operators of TL how they can increase their site growth and generally run it better . Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:46 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:44 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:41 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:37 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 02:34 Dragonsven wrote:On August 25 2010 02:33 roofs wrote:On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. I don't think you read the post closely enough. 'this kind of elitism does not work'? He's warning the waves of new SC2 players not to listen to the thousands of mid level diamond players claiming to know everything there is. There's alot of bad information and he's simply telling the truth about how alot of these all-in diamond players havent truly explored the game. He's not saying that, he's saying their opinion doesn't matter and is probably wrong. No, he clearly states that a high ranked player will in 99% cases be right if he contradicts the mid diamond player and that the credentials "I'm in diamond" doesn't really mean much. He even mentioned that lower level players can have valuable insight in the OP. Look, I don't want to argue this all day. I just think it was a post that didn't really need to written. All it results in is insulting some players who just want to theorycraft but now won't because "they're just diamond players." It reeks of elitism. If you were so dumb as to take a random diamond player over a professional gamer's opinion than you are just stupid. You don't need a post telling you not to do that. A lot of posters are stupid and need a post to tell them that. Just have a look in any of the Terran imbalance threads, the quality of some posts is downright absurd. The term 'elitism' gets thrown aroudn a lot, but is it that bad? The most 'elitist' board I've ever found is "Elitist Jerks" which is one of the more pleasant forum experiences as the absolute majority of the posts were worth reading. Much rather have that than the current "I'm a 600p diamond zerg so I know terrans fucking imbalanced ffs". I personally could care less how much or little elitism exists on this forum. But the people who run this site should care very much because it will determine how well they retain new members. Evidently untrue. You seem to care very much. OT, thanks Saracen this was nicely written and expressed. It seems to have rubbed some people the wrong way, but I didn't get any elitist sense at all. I felt you were even fairly restrained in trying to explain your point. Well thought out and nicely reasoned. I hope people have generally taken it in the spirit it was offered. Nicely written pieces like this without straying too deep into emotion is what I really appreciate about Team Liquid
Just wanted to add something
Let's think about it from a big picture perspective. Team Liquid got to where it was today based on the fact that it had hard moderation. In the recent MLG interview, Lee Chen stated "TL community is a great blend of anti-troll and constructive criticism." I remember the team liquid purging sessions when the state of the forums got too sloppy and moderation came down fast and hard.
Time goes on, and newer members join. Some because they know about TL's reputation as a well moderated forum, others because it has some good info on a game that they play. Those who know the rules stay in line while the ones who don't push the limits of the moderator's patience. The forums slowly start to deteriorate after this, until its time for another purge session.
While it does TL a lot of good to expand its userbase, it can also do TL a lot of harm if they do so at the expense of what TL represents. To draw an analogy (this analogy is from the book The Tipping Point, by Malcom Gladwell), there was a brand of skateboard shoes called Airwalk. Airwalk was designed a certain way and marketed a certain way in that it was perceived as "cool" by a select group of people. However Airwalk compromised certain features, as a cost saving measure and to sell more shoes. This upset the balance and alienated Airwalk's core customers, leading to the decline of the brand.
Yes TL wants more users, but they want quality users.
TL has taught me to think before I post. I've been two paragraphs into a post and then thought "wait a minute..what exactly am i trying to say here? has it already been said? will the thread benefit from what I'm writing? Is it as clear and as concise as it can be?
It is elitism, but if TL doesn't protect it's house, then we'll end up with another bnet forum, and we do not need two of those.
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Well said, some humility could go a long ways. Unfortunately this is the internet, but I do see the forums improving as posters mature. With every new poster surge their will be more this "that" but it dies down eventually... to an extent.
Haha, I also agree with the above, your giving the leagues way too much credit.
Bronze: I know where the start button is and how to right click. I enjoy zooming in to watch pretty units do battle as I give them personal names.
Silver: I have a general sense of unit abilities and can spam production after I hit 1k minerals. I have begun to learn to cheese.
Gold: I can run decent build orders and have okay macro. I still enjoying watching battles rather than macroing. I have several strong cheese builds and have begun to scout. I have also begun to use casters and upgrades.
Plat: I can run several build orders and have okay macro. I can multi-task a bit better but will still have some slips of macro and get supply blocked. I have several strong cheese builds and scout occasionally. I use casters once in a while and can micro some without completely abandoning macro.
Diamond: I think I'm awesome. I can run either one or several build orders and have okay macro. I have well-polished cheeses or all-ins that I do all day long. I can multi-task but am still far from efficient. I micro occasionally and scout my opponent regularly. I expand, push, and transition with thought. I am experimenting with multi-pronged attacks and continual harass.
Macro, unit compositions, and having a game plan are my crutches to victory.
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I think the main problem that this topic is trying to get at is that people are treating their localized success as if it were more than that.
There is little recognition of the possibility that what they think works, only works because of the shortcomings of their opponents. Losses are sometimes misattributed to "I played bad" or "He was too good" rather than "this strategy actually sucks." This is ironic because usually this works the other way - players blame builds or strats rather than recognizing shortcomings in their play.
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I biggest gripe with the idea of ranking people like this is that, it is simply too early. Too much inconsistamcy in ranks and player/skill abilities. Many good players losing on purpose to get portraits, many cheesing their way into the ranks, and just the sheer reality that this game is still new. IcCup has been up and running for quite some time. Over time, it mends itself and people are able to settle into their appropriate rankings. But as this game is still new, build-orders, unit alterations, and the fixing of bugs still will occur in the future. Until some of these have been implemented, I do not think we are able to accurately rank players IcCup style. I think to some degree, we can possibly rank some portion of the top players, but once you go further into Diamond, the rankings wont work.
All in all, I think it is interesting to see the comparison. And to some degree, it is nice to see where some stand. I just think we need to give it time. And mostly, what I would take from this is that, being a Diamond player does not automatically make you a great player. Because of the B.net forums, there is discrimination of non-Diamond players. Which assumes anyone in Diamond is simply that great. When in reality, that is not the case.
P.S. Yes, I know there are build orders out there. But they are not as set as those in Broodwar. It wont be like that for quite some time.
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I have great faith in the robustness of the ELO ranking system and its ability to provide an accurate assessment of skill. The standard logistic curve describes very well populations in motion and it has a long, long track record and great mathematical foundation.
In short: give it more time and diamonds will actually be diamonds, pure and simple. When the population settles down and people stop entering multiplayer by the thousands, the ranking system WILL sort everything out, as it is mathematically design to do. Right now it does not because: the lack of mature and stable strategies, and the HUGE number of wins against pure newbs.
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We have no idea what Blizzard uses for ranking.
The leagues and ladders are designed to give players sense of accomplishment and are not used to measure players skill.
Whatever they use for that is hidden for now.
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Q: How are the ranking points counted?
A: The formula is based on a regular ELO ranking system, with an event modifier, where the amount of points won or lost is multiplied with the event value, meaning if you win 30 and the event has 1.5, you win 45.
As in any ELO system, you win more if you win against a higher ranked opponent; in fact, the higher your opponent's rank is, the more points you win, and vice versa. For a more detailed description of the ELO ranking system, check ELO at wikipedia.
And as in any ELO system, the lower your opponent's rank is, the more points you lose when you... lose.
As a result, it just takes a few rounds of matchups against "good" diamonds and "good" platinums for the "worthless" diamonds to get booted out.
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[B]Silver: I haven't played an RTS since doing the SC1 campaign in 1998 and lost 4 out of 5 placement matches and ended up in Bronze. After about 50 games I began learning how to play and am now #1 in my division, probably getting promoted to Gold shortly.
Fixed.
The game has been out barely a month. I imagine a lot of Plat/Diamond players are simply there because they knew how to play by the time the game went live.
Regardless, arguing from authority is garbage. "You are wrong" is not an argument, whether you are Jimmy from Bronze League or a tournament winning e-celebrity. "You are wrong and this is why" is an argument.
Granted, a lot of times people have really dumb ideas and it's certainly your prerogative to not dignify it with more than a "you are bad. be quiet". But the weight behind that statement shouldn't really be "I am highly ranked on some leaderboard" but rather "I think you made no points worth a reasoned response".
The reason any strategy works is because the numbers favor that strategy. Strategies are objectively good or objectively bad. Math is not malleable by the size of one's epeen.
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I liked the thread. I actually don't see a problem with having invite only discussions. Could be very nice. I mean there is obviously a difference between people who try to play SC2 for money (or generally 8h a day) and people who play it more casually. If there is a podium discussion of Philosophers you don't go there and share your opinions about now life works.
I don't know if I necessarily agree with all of your points though. Even if the, to stay on my example, non-philosopher can't participate in this type of well versed discussion and is maybe missing the right tools to do so, what he says, however well or badly he articulates himself, will still be an adequate description of how he perceives his (play)world (and how that world is actually structured, most likely).
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As soon as Blizzard revealed there would be rankings I think a majority of people knew this was going to happen. Elitists and such on the internet claiming to be godly at the game, and like someone said simply going "lol you're wrong Bronze noob" is not an argument, it's just being rude. To be honest, a lot of people HAVEN'T come to TL because of what they heard, which is that a lot of people act very stuck up. Before the SC2 rankings it was your iCCup standing that decided how much of an e-peen people would have.
Also on here, people like to look up at your post count and then decide if you're even worthy of a response or not, I've seen a lot of "I lurk around here but finally am posting" (and it's almost always true as you look at their date joined, but even so they could just not have an account and come here to read) and people basically respond with "lol yeah okay, stop talking you have 10 posts"(exaggeration example, but you get the point). And it's kinda sad because it drives people away. Now all this Diamond league e-peen stuff happens, and it's not just on TL it's every SC2 forum, but I think it's most prevalent here due to this sites popularity.
And not to start some kind of war but I'm going to say this now. There are some mods on here who can be unfair sometimes, it seems. You can't do anything about it if you're not a mod yourself. But the fact is that they're human too and just as likely to be a smidge of a hypocrite or unfair at times.
Respect is great and all, and it is deserved, the Pros are just amazing to watch and it's hard to do what they do. It's unfortunate that if you're not in Diamond, it would seem nothing you say matters and you're automatically wrong and don't understand anything about the game, you know, the one that's been out a month tomorrow. (if you want an even worse example look at the official forums where it shows your profile and wins and rank, and see how people respond to some actual insightful or serious posts from people who aren't 900 Diamond)
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On August 26 2010 18:27 kojinshugi wrote:
The game has been out barely a month. I imagine a lot of Plat/Diamond players are simply there because they knew how to play by the time the game went live.
Regardless, arguing from authority is garbage. "You are wrong" is not an argument, whether you are Jimmy from Bronze League or a tournament winning e-celebrity. "You are wrong and this is why" is an argument.
Granted, a lot of times people have really dumb ideas and it's certainly your prerogative to not dignify it with more than a "you are bad. be quiet". But the weight behind that statement shouldn't really be "I am highly ranked on some leaderboard" but rather "I think you made no points worth a reasoned response".
This, couldnt have put it better myself.
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On August 26 2010 07:12 Kinmaul wrote:Perfect example of why TL moderaters need to start laying down the warn/ban hammer more: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145740Fist made a great post, listed the pro's and con's of his build, gave some solid advice about transitions into mid-game, AND posted multiple replays. He did everything his was supposed to do. The initial community response: shit all over his post. "I didn't watch the replays but your build will die to 2 gate" "Well based on the replays all your opponents sucked, I could counter that easy" "Rofl how could those be diamond opponents, get better reps" "This build won't work vs xyz strat" Armchair theorycrafters at their finest. Evidently the only way to discuss a build is to play vs people that don't make mistakes. Newsflash: EVERYONE makes mistakes. Hindsight is 20/20 and when you are watching a replay you know what your opponent is doing at any given second. You could take a replay of anyone and figure out a way to counter what they did in that given instance. Do you normally go into games and tell someone, "oh hey btw I'm banshee rushing this game, good luck!" or "probably going 2 gate into robo and getting immortals"? I'm guessing the answer is no. The whole point of having an arsenal of builds to choose from is so that your opponent doesn't know exactly what you are doing. Fist didn't claim to invent the strat, or be the only one using it. He never claimed it would work in every scenario, or that it was a super build that assured you a win. He simply had a build that he had been using with great succes and took some time out of his day to post it here. Thankfully the trolls finally let off and real discussion began. Many people were grateful for his contribution to the community, but if that's what people have to go through everytime they put up a post don't expect them to keep posting. Why is the inital reaction of the community so negative? It's like people need to prove they are superior instead of having a discussion as equals. Now if Fist had posted, "Hey guyz I made this super build dat got me diamond lol, I dun have any replays but here's the BO. Btw when you use plz tell people you are "Fist'ing" them cuz dat would be coo! lololol" Then please by all means rip him apart. Note I'm not against low skilled players asking for help and making posts. There's nothing wrong with that as long as they follow the same format of providing replays and posting constructively. What I'm against is the opinionated garbage that spewed forth by people that would rather try to "one up" someone on the internet instead of taking the time to watch the replays and give meaningful feedback. I also think it is in the best interest of the thread that when someone is warned/banned for their post that it gets pruned out of the thread and placed in another thread, call it the "Trash Thread" or something. That keeps the garbage out and the discussion focused on the meaningful replies.
If I remember correctly people who posted about the terran 1/1/1 (before it got known as such)
Saying O I have interesting unit composition of blah that really works. Within the first page there were always posts saying this build will die to blah. Looks like these trolls have eaten most of there words. Seems to me that the 1/1/1 has made quite a lot of success vs terran/zerg/toss opponents. This roach thing while the the theory crafters may be right the point is to have zerg players try it and it work. Once the people that play the race start using said strat and it becomes the normal zerg opener that works against almost everything you will get the trolls to be quiet.
Will the 5 rush rush do that I have no clue. But I will definitely try it myself or tell one of my zerg friends to try it out. (Unfortunately/fortunately I don't think this individual reads TL)
edit typo
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On August 25 2010 02:25 Myles wrote:
As a ~600 pt diamond player I agree.
haha nice
good read though, although I thought the leagues were supposed to be relatively equal in size (20% of the plaerbase per league)
it's just that the difference in skill within the top 20% by far exceeds the difference in skill within the bottom 80%
being in platinum still should make you better than 80% of the players roughly, at least
unless I misunderstand the league system
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I agree with this thread, I myself try to learn more than I spout and I think we could all do better to read and understand before we say things especially to very good players.
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The Diamond league seems like such a small world sometimes. But seriously diamond players need a good lesson in Humility. I have seen so many egotistic players boast their rank and points and saying things like "Quiet, you're bad."
This is reminiscent of a game called Gunz the Duel where the community was awful. The community was by far worse than any other game I've seen, its goes to the point where BM turns into malicious hate, and it is awful for the community to be subjected by that. I'm starting to see signs of this elitism pop up everywhere, and quite frankly I fear for the community sometimes if we don't get our act together and promote Mannerism.
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While that all may be true, i found it very demotivational.
I was just promoted to plat last night, and it felt good, I felt like i was improving, that article just took all of that away from me.
I feel i got there by being the best i can be with my limited practice i've had, not because i've practiced one build order over and over. I actually have a few builds i do against each race, some need improving, some are working quite well most of the time.
I feel that i am one of the players that wants to learn the game, and not just practice one indestructable build to win my way to Diamond.
Fact is, where there are forums, there are trolls, and noobs, and noobs who think they're awesome but are not, i rarely see the point of making a thread about it such as this one.
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The point is that you should not think that being in diamond makes you good. If you go up in leagues, you are obviously improving, but you are not yet good.
This thread is telling you that anyone who justifies their claims with league standing instead of replays and logic is full of shit. It is also telling you that if you want to be a good player, you have to aim higher than diamond. You have to aim to surpass ladder play.
Honestly, it is very simple and I am surprised anyone can get anything negative out of this post, unless you are one of those people who thinks they are good because they are in diamond.
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
On August 27 2010 08:51 Gorgazm wrote:
While that all may be true, i found it very demotivational.
I was just promoted to plat last night, and it felt good, I felt like i was improving, that article just took all of that away from me.
I feel i got there by being the best i can be with my limited practice i've had, not because i've practiced one build order over and over. I actually have a few builds i do against each race, some need improving, some are working quite well most of the time.
I feel that i am one of the players that wants to learn the game, and not just practice one indestructable build to win my way to Diamond.
Fact is, where there are forums, there are trolls, and noobs, and noobs who think they're awesome but are not, i rarely see the point of making a thread about it such as this one.
Don't feel like that man. I think Incontrol summed it up pretty nicely when he said something like this in qxc's TL: Attack!
The top 200 players are obviously the good players and there's a large gap between them and the rest of Diamond.
Obviously the kicker here is 'the rest of Diamond'. It doesn't mean that Diamond isn't better than Platinum, it doesn't mean that Plat isn't better than Gold and so on. All it means is that there's *some* players around that belonged in the top echelon of the BW community, their skill obviously transferred to SC2 since it's basically the same game with some updates.
It doesn't mean that nobody wants new players! People like qxc and TLO are pretty new to the scene, at least as high-profile players (I know TLO played some BW before, no idea about qxc but I'm just spouting examples) and they get a lot of respect because obviously they're a notch above the general public.
The general public that also got put into Diamond because hey, it's a big league and there's a lot of room for people, even if the gap between the truly good players and the rest is pretty large.
Just because a player is in the same league as Nony or TLO doesn't mean he's at the same skill-level. ICCup had 12 'leagues' and even there the difference was noticable.
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EPT
