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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
I, for one, very rarely post in strategy threads because I don't play much and don't have much to contribute. However, I enjoy reading such threads to keep up on the current state of the game. Unfortunately, the SC2 strategy forum is pretty much defunct and resembles the official forums with ridiculous claims and mostly immature behavior. The old BW strategy forum had its periods of useless whining (PvZ imbaaa...), but overall it was so much more satisfying to browse through and read threads. | ||
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MaReK
Australia446 Posts
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MasterFischer
Denmark836 Posts
Diamond league is still better than the other millions of players who AREN'T in the diamond league... I don't think people expect or boast about being the ultimate pro gamer just because they're in diamond league.. but they are certaintly better than the majority of players out there.. totally.. so that's impressive.. Sure, to old hardcore BW players, they are not that good... and so what?  Being in diamond league probaly means that you're gonna beat most of your friends, family, friend's of friends and other guys at LAN parties alonig with lower league players in the millions, and then lose to the high end diamond guys and pros.. I'd say that¨s still impressive.. Less elitism please, more fun and games | ||
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Doctorasul
Romania1145 Posts
If you know your ICCUP rank, chances are you are in diamond. I think your objection to people specifying their league and points is just that it sounds impressive even though it isn't. Would you really object to someone stating they are D+ or C- and then trying to make a point? Why is saying I'm a x-point Diamond player different in principle? I'm actually enjoying the state of the game right now. With every day that passes something new is figured out and we will never again go back to when we didn't know about it. It's refreshing to play a game where you actually have the freedom to experiment since not everyone and their mother can read up on ultra-solid builds that they don't understand but that work and steamroll you to oblivion unless you start reading up on theory as well. You don't have to have a deep understanding, just to be able to mechanically copy a build and see improvement in rating with no improvement on understanding. Since you (rightly) don't value too much players that only use 4 warpgate to climb to the top of diamond and you see them as good at wining games but not good at "understanding", why is that different from a player going 3-hatch muta to C? They're both copying a build that they certainly didn't invent and they are both likely to not undertand all the subtleties of the build. The build just works at giving them wins. Shouldn't you be happy that in SC2, as opposed to BW, there are currently very few builds that people can just copy and win? (Being C or B or whatever is not a guarantee you understand jack about BW either; there are a billion copycats that do very well and yet are worthless in a strategy discussion.) We should embrace this stage of the game, not despise it. Intuitive players like TLO are likely to be drowened in a sea of robotic, brainless experts at theory, once that theory develops to something worthwhile. So instead of discouraging posters, we should make the best of these times and let them flame on! | ||
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GrazerRinge
999 Posts
On August 25 2010 21:49 MasterFischer wrote: So who cares? Diamond league is still better than the other millions of players who AREN'T in the diamond league... I don't think people expect or boast about being the ultimate pro gamer just because they're in diamond league.. but they are certaintly better than the majority of players out there.. totally.. so that's impressive.. Sure, to old hardcore BW players, they are not that good... and so what? Being in diamond league probaly means that you're gonna beat most of your friends, family, friend's of friends and other guys at LAN parties alonig with lower league players in the millions, and then lose to the high end diamond guys and pros.. I'd say that¨s still impressive.. Less elitism please, more fun and games Totally agree. There is group of people who plays for fun at high level. On the other hand, there are players who are seeking for win at all costs. But there are few people who seek for the best, not just win, but how to achieve a win. And at the end, best of the best will always be ahead of the rest. It's how the nature works. The rest will be wining about their lack of skills and misfortune instead put effort to get better. | ||
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gREIFOCs
Argentina208 Posts
On August 25 2010 20:39 Galois wrote: This is complete bullshit because I was a D in iCCup and I can't get out of Silver, even though I practice all the time with Diamond level players and not get my ass kicked. I think you have to agree that you are not the rule but the exception. | ||
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Chriamon
United States886 Posts
On August 25 2010 21:49 MasterFischer wrote: of friends and other guys at LAN parties Not I, being a ~700 point diamond player means I'm like #7 skillwise (plenty of ex BW A-/A players) that shows up to LANs around here lol, however I think thats a good thing. However, on your other points, I care. I think that at my skill level, I shouldn't be diamond. Diamond should be reserved for players who are actually good, I'm just mediocre, I have decent mechanics and I have 3 or 4 build orders down, along with a decent understanding of unit composition. In BW on iccup that is required to be even D+ or D. I feel like its like a lot of martial arts. Getting a blakc belt in a martial art should mean you are an expert in that field and have like 10+ years experiene, however, here in America, they constantly give you new belts just so you feel like you've progressed and you'll stay with their gym. I got a black belt in tae kwan do when I was like 12, and its for damn sure I am not an expert. Blizz is doing the same thing in their ladder, however, in the long run, its will end up that being in Diamond doesn't mean you have any game knowledge, just like my black belt in tae kwan do doesn't mean I can fight. | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On August 25 2010 21:49 MasterFischer wrote: So who cares? Diamond league is still better than the other millions of players who AREN'T in the diamond league... I don't think people expect or boast about being the ultimate pro gamer just because they're in diamond league.. but they are certaintly better than the majority of players out there.. totally.. so that's impressive.. Sure, to old hardcore BW players, they are not that good... and so what? Being in diamond league probaly means that you're gonna beat most of your friends, family, friend's of friends and other guys at LAN parties alonig with lower league players in the millions, and then lose to the high end diamond guys and pros.. I'd say that¨s still impressive.. Less elitism please, more fun and games His point is not that diamond sucks per se, it's that players who get to diamond think too highly of themselves and their opinions which hurts the strategy forum because you don't really need to be knowledgeable to get to diamond. | ||
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ironchef
Canada1350 Posts
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
I also agree completely with your suggestion that all-in builds right now are very strong, just because people have not developed proper responses yet. Maybe, just maybe, in my opinion, this is why it is so hard to play as zerg right now, because zerg is so reactionary, with fewer all-ins available, and we don't know at this point how to react to different all-in builds because a counter is not known well. This means zergs have to trial and error until they find the correct responses. I take ZvP 4 gate all-in as a classic example: In Platinum I keep losing to the 2 gate >>> core >>> 4 gate push, just because I responded poorly to what is essentially a fake all-in by making too many roaches. Now I almost never lose against this strategy, since I take the toss's warpin of a cyber core as a sign that I can expand safely, then make a crawler. Before a response was developed, any protoss can defeat me using that build, now they will have to do something different. But the point is that it is possible to ladder using only one all-in build in each matchup. Although I also agree that it is really fun to show off to your friends how much of a "pro" one has become  But yeah Diamond players don't equate to knowing as much about the game as some well-known players. | ||
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Skcali
United States10 Posts
I also cannot stress how even though my points place me in the "top 5% of Diamond", I still feel like I'm drowning in a sea of mediocrity  edit: bad math  | ||
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:36 Chriamon wrote: The problem is that over time, this: will become more like this: it seems. I noticed that this point inflation happens a lot. I was inactive for a week, I come back, and win most of my games at my previous point value, and jump up like litereally 200 points, and this is after a week or 2 of inactivity. I really hope Blizz comes up with a legit ranking system that can be universal. On the other points you made, I completely agree. My ZvP was terrible, and then I learned how to defend 4 gate pushes, and all of the sudden most Ps at my level are super easy. well said, that summed up my ZvP experience too | ||
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MasterFischer
Denmark836 Posts
On August 25 2010 22:12 Chriamon wrote: Not I, being a ~700 point diamond player means I'm like #7 skillwise (plenty of ex BW A-/A players) that shows up to LANs around here lol, however I think thats a good thing. However, on your other points, I care. I think that at my skill level, I shouldn't be diamond. Diamond should be reserved for players who are actually good, I'm just mediocre, I have decent mechanics and I have 3 or 4 build orders down, along with a decent understanding of unit composition. In BW on iccup that is required to be even D+ or D. I feel like its like a lot of martial arts. Getting a blakc belt in a martial art should mean you are an expert in that field and have like 10+ years experiene, however, here in America, they constantly give you new belts just so you feel like you've progressed and you'll stay with their gym. I got a black belt in tae kwan do when I was like 12, and its for damn sure I am not an expert. Blizz is doing the same thing in their ladder, however, in the long run, its will end up that being in Diamond doesn't mean you have any game knowledge, just like my black belt in tae kwan do doesn't mean I can fight. But I fail to see where Blizzard has stated that Diamond League is reserved only for BW players on ICCUP that were B/A++? It doesn't. Being in Diamond means that you're better than the majority... THE MAJORITY, this means the endless millions of people who AREN'T in diamond league, and probaly never will be. What does this mean? Well this means that right now, diamond league are reserved for people who know stuff about build orders, can micro fairly well, have SOME knowledge about the game, and that's fine.. IF you really are good at the game, it will shine through.. You will be 1500 rating 3:1 win ratio player in diamond.. and other players WILL admire your playstyle. Blizzard even reguarly posts the 200 best in diamond, SEVERAL pro's being amongst that list.. I KNOW I won't ever be a part of that list, probaly, but I don't care.. I'm not aiming to be a professional, but I still know that I can beat the majority of players not in Diamond, given the system. BASICALLY, what I gather from all of this, is, high end people and pro's telling EVERYBODY that are not up to ATLEAST B/A ICCUP level to go suck a fuck, because this is THEIR game, and THEIR league... no.. it isn't. Stop being so pretencious and let other people have their fun. BESIDES, Blizzard already stated, that there will be a entirely INVITE only league ABOVE diamond at some point, and also, leagues fluctuate alot, so in 3-4 months time, diamond players will likely be better than they are now, and vice versa with the other leagues... Chill out guys, play your game, be happy where you are in the system, and stop caring so much about others taking a little slice of your cake, when you're still getting the majority of the PRESTIGE.... CHILLAX :D | ||
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ZergTurd
83 Posts
Your post was basically saying " a lot of people don't know what they're talking about. Listen to the ones who we know do and ignore the rest!" In NO way can this help the game. If you're able to prove to me that it does help the game in some way, go ahead. | ||
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REM.ca
Canada354 Posts
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
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BlindPhaydo
United States33 Posts
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Garaman
United States556 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote: Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. User was temp banned for this post. we would actually better this great website by driving away drivel from people like you. read the post before commenting inane statements like this. you read it all wrong. | ||
tofucake
Hyrule19152 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On August 25 2010 22:59 BlindPhaydo wrote: This OP was great and very well thought out. I think a lot of people are misunderstanding it though. The key point I take away not that anyone who's in low/mid Diamond should just shut the hell up, it's that you should remain humble and realize that you don't know nearly as much about the game as the top players. We can all voice our opinions, but when someone attempts to use his diamond status to show how much he understands the game, it's pretty obnoxious. What a ridiculous statement, sorry but anyone can know alot about the game no matter what rank you are. It's just some lower players who may know alot about the game may not be able to execute the things properly. Just because someone plays for 12 hours a day, doesn't mean they're immune to making mistakes. Mutas are owned by thors they said, well since someone came up with the fact that spread mutas decimate thors it's shown that even the top players are still prone to being wrong. I'll respect the people who play in tournaments purely for the fact they do it for enjoyment and for everyone here and elsewhere who enjoys watching them play, but to say that they know more about the game because they play it in tournaments I think is a little bit silly. Right now, atleast for another year everyone should have equal right to voice their opinions as it's a new game. You can't just balance the game around one person who plays the game 12 hours a day because balance can't function like that, say for example in Broodwar Jaedong comes up with this build that any zerg could pull off without any effort, but it's so hard to defend against that the only person who can defend it is Flash, but for anyone but Flash nobody can stop it. Just because one person can stop something doesn't mean it's balanced, that's why everyone needs some kind of input at least to be able to help with discussions. | ||
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