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Calgary26003 Posts
On August 25 2010 04:55 gogogadgetflow wrote:
So are you telling me a)
If I work my ass off and after a few hundred games of improving my mediocre mechanics and gaining in-depth, adaptable knowledge of opening builds, midgame options and transitions, late-game strategies, etc. etc. for each matchup... Everyone should ignore my opinion because I am a lowly plat player or low diamond
OR b)
Rank doesn't matter so don't disregard any opinion based on rank???
Neither. He is saying consider the content and the person, not necessarily the rank.
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I play a few games a day,but I'm stuck in bronze. I know my units, BOs and counters,etc. My APM is probably the highest of all bronze divisions. I'm just stuck there playing the noobs and cheesers who 6/8 pool every game yet get stopped by my 14 pool, who rush banshees/ voidrays to no avail when my 2 queens stop eveything they throw at me. Feels bad man.
I can often outplay my gold/platinum level friends who play terran(no offense).I guess this allows me to play around with other races.
TL;DR-rank doesn't matter
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On August 25 2010 04:53 gdroxor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:28 Dragonsven wrote:
Yet another post describing why diamond players are not good and only old school players should comment on anything. I was expecting a rule on post count by the end. You should realize this kind of elitism does not work and you will end up driving all the new posters away once the initial boost from SC2 ends. This. The comparisons are getting stale.
No one is saying only old-school players should comment. The OP is saying that if something a top player says contradicts what you (or some 800-Diamond player) is saying, chances are, he's right and you're wrong. Do you disagree with that?
New people come here looking for advice, not looking to give it. And it's not like the strategy forums comprises the entirety of TL.
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While I think people like to talk about their rank and say "my power level is over 9000 so my opinion is right", and that their rank doesn't necessarily mean that they are, lower-ranked players aren't idiots and new ideas can come from any level of play. People from all skill levels should be able to support their ideas with arguments, even if they're IdrA or someone else famous (probably especially if they're IdrA).
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I was D+ high in BW and I'm currently at about 700~800 diamond, so I'd say your ranking system is pretty accurate.
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On August 25 2010 02:19 Saracen wrote:
OP
very good points and something that i think you and i were discussing for quite a bit yesterday 
Don't quote the entire OP
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I'll add my piece.
OP is thinly veiled elitism, although well intentioned, if somewhat misguided.
People who are mid level diamond giving advice to lower level people are typically giving good advice to those people, as they are communicating on a level of gameplay that doesn't require an "Idra" level of gameplay understanding.
Mid level Diamond people shouldn't be arguing againsy high level people, but as a general rule of thumb league and rank denotes relative skill.
And to the people who say winning % matters it doesn't....especially now, since experimentation is a key portion of the game now and the best players aren't the ones who are focusing on doing the exact same thing over and over to win that in the end will stagnate. You lose more than you win when you try to alter your strategy significantly.
Also, I'll say "All-in" strats are often misdiagnosed and a good player will always morph what others may consider "All-in" or "cheese" into an excellent mid game strategy when the initial strategy is countered. I frequently Rush a 3 gate zealot rush that I morph into Stalkers, robotics or phoenix depending on how my opponent handles my rush. It is only the people who do a single strategy that continually use that strategy even after it fails that I would consider "all-in" players.
Lastly there are many people (myself included I think) that have an excellent understanding of the game (maybe not perfect) but who don't have the training a professional player has at practicing their micro and macro skills. Basically I know when I should expand, I know to keep my resource float as low as possible but that doesn't always mean I do it since I haven't practiced it enough to react without thought.
That is the main difference between the best players and a top diamond player. Their knowledge of the game is roughly equivalent, but their execution of that knowledge is the difference.
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I have to say as a self aware bad player, this thread was maybe the biggest waste of time of any I've read in any forum for any game. It serves no purpose. People stating their rating is for reference, not them bragging. They are saying "this is my rating, ive gotten here using these ideas/strategies/builds". I'm going to start opening up all of my posts saying "i'm a professional starcraft 2 player" that way people actually read my posts. I think its brilliant what blizzard has done with their rankings.
While I agree understanding the game doesnt mean you have to be a top player its for different reasons... reasons that make sense. Take a look at ANY professional sport. Even if I have never picked up a basketball in my entire life, I can understand the game, and theoretically could become the greatest basketball strategist in the world. For this reason, its quite possible that a Computer (E) level player could understand Broodwar more than a B+ or something... let alone in starcraft 2.
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I got to Diamond 700 from scratch with 3 months of playing. By 'scratch', I mean I didn't play broodwar, Warcraft 3, or any other RTS game since Red Alert 2. I'm not a FPS gamer either. My APM hovers around 50. I'm awful, but as long as the Terran keep 3raxing me, I'm gonna keep winning. It doesn't take much to be diamond,
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There are plenty of posts that are like "i'm ranked 900+ diamond and terran is op because they killed me", though.
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Saracen's posts are always passive-aggressive jabs at some group of people. Every post I've seen him make has been half-trolling half-antagonizing wrapped in well-worded arguments so that it doesn't get outright attacked or locked.
Listing your diamond rating is useful because if you post a strat on the SC2 strat forums and don't post your rating, people are going to attack you for being bad and your strat only working at 500 gold level. In MasterAsia's post, he got flamed until it was made clear that he wasn't a terrible player. The insinuation that you only post your diamond rating if you're being immodest is uncalled for.
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The only reason I'm not rank 1 in my diamond division with 1000+ points is because I play zerg.
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On August 25 2010 05:02 Jayrod wrote:
While I agree understanding the game doesnt mean you have to be a top player its for different reasons... reasons that make sense. Take a look at ANY professional sport. Even if I have never picked up a basketball in my entire life, I can understand the game, and theoretically could become the greatest basketball strategist in the world. For this reason, its quite possible that a Computer (E) level player could understand Broodwar more than a B+ or something... let alone in starcraft 2.
This is not true at all (especially the comparison you made). It's one of the more common sentiments that's floating around these forums, and it's only there to make less-successful players feel better about themselves. But it's really not true. In this game, there's nothing that can replace experience. Not by watching Day[9], not by watching replays, not by watching livestreams. I really don't know what else I can say to convince you of this. All of the top players know this, and its people who believe otherwise that keep them from posting on these forums. Teamliquid is all about promoting open discussion and getting viewpoints from lots of different people. But it's people who believe they are master strategists but who put zero effort into the game that kill discussions. Because even though they think they know what's going on, the truth is they don't. They don't know timings. They don't know production capabilities. They don't know about responding to situations given limited information. The game's a lot different when you're playing it than when you're watching it.
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Here, let's make the OP a bit more concise and easy to grasp:
The game is still very much developing, with unrefined timings and transitions and wildly different play in every other match. You're getting away with this development period, but, with all due respect and credit to your wins, you really actually suck, and in five months you'll be completely out-classed, so shut the fuck up.
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On August 25 2010 04:59 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 04:55 gogogadgetflow wrote:
So are you telling me a)
If I work my ass off and after a few hundred games of improving my mediocre mechanics and gaining in-depth, adaptable knowledge of opening builds, midgame options and transitions, late-game strategies, etc. etc. for each matchup... Everyone should ignore my opinion because I am a lowly plat player or low diamond
OR b)
Rank doesn't matter so don't disregard any opinion based on rank??? Neither. He is saying consider the content and the person, not necessarily the rank.
OK. That's what I meant by option b 
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On August 25 2010 05:02 Jayrod wrote:
I have to say as a self aware bad player, this thread was maybe the biggest waste of time of any I've read in any forum for any game. It serves no purpose. People stating their rating is for reference, not them bragging. They are saying "this is my rating, ive gotten here using these ideas/strategies/builds". I'm going to start opening up all of my posts saying "i'm a professional starcraft 2 player" that way people actually read my posts. I think its brilliant what blizzard has done with their rankings.
While I agree understanding the game doesnt mean you have to be a top player its for different reasons... reasons that make sense. Take a look at ANY professional sport. Even if I have never picked up a basketball in my entire life, I can understand the game, and theoretically could become the greatest basketball strategist in the world. For this reason, its quite possible that a Computer (E) level player could understand Broodwar more than a B+ or something... let alone in starcraft 2.
No, E level player sucks exactly cause he doesn't understand the game. And you won't be great basketball strategist either unless you strive for it and get experience in basketball coaching.
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On August 25 2010 05:02 Jayrod wrote:
its quite possible that a Computer (E) level player could understand Broodwar more than a B+ or something... let alone in starcraft 2.
If you get out of D+, you will never believe this, ever again.
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These rankings are pretty accurate as far as my own skill. I used to be a C+ player on iccup and I'm now about 1k rating diamond.
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I wonder how many people say they're mid-Diamond and actually are.
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EPT
