EPTThe Truth About Diamond League - Page 15
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
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rek
United States8 Posts
 However, I will say that just because you're a mid level diamond player doesn't mean you don't know anything or can't give advice. I help my lower level friends out all the time and I'm able to give them advice which is relevant to them and their situation in the game - to help them get to a slightly higher level of understanding. I'm not Idra or TLO, I'm not going to tell these people how to play hard and go pro, but that type of advice would be beyond them anyways. Not everyone has a pro waiting to help them, so while I'm not going to claim to know a fraction of the amount that better players know I still know that I have valuable input for lower level players. I think it's important for people to realize what the leagues mean, like the way the OP pointed out. Not that diamond players are "bad" - they are still among the top players, but the difference between the top 10% and the top 1% is as big as the difference between low bronze and diamond. Being one of the better players out of the millions online means you know basics, but it doesn't make you anywhere near the level of a pro. It's like being good at school sports as a kid and assuming that means you can make it as a professional athlete. You've got a better chance than someone who is bad at sports, but you are no where near that level. | ||
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SixSigma
United States16 Posts
I know the OP has good intentions with the post but in the end it is simply an elitist viewpoint (although I genuinely believe he doesn't realize it). After all, I don't think most people on this forum are living their lives "incorrectly" (although some may be, heh) simply because I am more successful in my career and relationships than they are. Statements like that are a perfect example of why this logic is everything but constructive. I have seen many comments from pros that I know are just bogus... Just because they have the ability to micro and macro like it's no one's business does not mean they have a deeper understanding of the game. | ||
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Schtrudel
Romania56 Posts
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SaikOuLighT
Canada742 Posts
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gdroxor
United States639 Posts
On August 25 2010 05:00 B1nary wrote: No one is saying only old-school players should comment. The OP is saying that if something a top player says contradicts what you (or some 800-Diamond player) is saying, chances are, he's right and you're wrong. Do you disagree with that? New people come here looking for advice, not looking to give it. And it's not like the strategy forums comprises the entirety of TL. My issue is the need for the old guard to constantly revalidate their superiority ad-nauseum. Yes, many have been on the site forever, followed hundreds of BW games, seen the game evolve time and time again. I understand and respect that. What I don't understand is the recurring compulsion to put new members in their place. If you truly believe yourselves to be better, more seasoned players, then why do these threads keep popping up? One would wonder if some of the older members feel threatened by SC2 and its playerbase. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
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Cedstick
Canada3336 Posts
On August 25 2010 05:28 Techno wrote: Im a mid level diamond player but I feel like I understand the game very well. Lately I've been losing to bad diamond players attacking me at the right time. Self-contradictory! | ||
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Scorcher2k
United States802 Posts
On August 25 2010 05:14 Saracen wrote: This is not true at all (especially the comparison you made). It's one of the more common sentiments that's floating around these forums, and it's only there to make less-successful players feel better about themselves. But it's really not true. In this game, there's nothing that can replace experience. Not by watching Day[9], not by watching replays, not by watching livestreams. I really don't know what else I can say to convince you of this. All of the top players know this, and its people who believe otherwise that keep them from posting on these forums. Teamliquid is all about promoting open discussion and getting viewpoints from lots of different people. But it's people who believe they are master strategists but who put zero effort into the game that kill discussions. Because even though they think they know what's going on, the truth is they don't. They don't know timings. They don't know production capabilities. They don't know about responding to situations given limited information. The game's a lot different when you're playing it than when you're watching it. So you're saying that it is impossible to study a game in order to understand it? You really need to get the elitism in check. Why are you trying to single out players who by normal standards are good at this game and actually do understand it much better than the vast majority of the population to feel like shit instead of simply focusing on the know-it-alls who assert their opinions as fact. | ||
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Deleted User 81929
243 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
I wish people would actually read the post. I wish TL could make private threads that were still open to read btwn top players. | ||
EliteAzn
United States661 Posts
On August 25 2010 05:15 Cedstick wrote: Here, let's make the OP a bit more concise and easy to grasp: The game is still very much developing, with unrefined timings and transitions and wildly different play in every other match. You're getting away with this development period, but, with all due respect and credit to your wins, you really actually suck, and in five months you'll be completely out-classed, so shut the fuck up. THIS!! I know a couple people who fit in these two categories...and it's pretty discouraging. For example, one of my friends has more points in diamond solely because he 4 gates every single game and apparently most of the people he plays in diamond don't know how to respond to 4 gate. Similar problem with PvP. He'll proxy gate like 90% of his PvP games and with ~90% of those as well. It's just pretty sad how apparently a lot of people in diamond don't know how to play against very standard strategies with nothing special added on. Minimal micro is involved as well I believe (b/c I play with him). | ||
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Tenryu
United States565 Posts
On August 25 2010 05:30 Scorcher2k wrote: So you're saying that it is impossible to study a game in order to understand it? You really need to get the elitism in check. Why are you trying to single out players who by normal standards are good at this game and actually do understand it much better than the vast majority of the population to feel like shit instead of simply focusing on the know-it-alls who assert their opinions as fact. Uh, i dont think he's saying its impossible. He's saying that there are too many people that obs and study the game rather then playing and learning by experience, which in my opinion, is much more effective then just studying. Thats where the whole "They don't know timings. They dont know production capabilities. They don't know about responding to situations given limited information." come in play. And obviously, if your a top gamer, you have those experiences down and it becomes second nature and you react instinctively to certain situations. I would much rather get tips and help from those people than the ones who think they know everything because they read forums and obs 1000 SC2 games. | ||
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Jubeebee
United States13 Posts
But I KNOW I'm horrible at this game and don't try to give advice to anyone but RL friends. It seems the TL.net forum is like anything else on the internet though: you have to identify and filter through the nonsense manually so you can actually learn from the people who DO know what they're talking about. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On August 25 2010 05:28 gdroxor wrote: My issue is the need for the old guard to constantly revalidate their superiority ad-nauseum. Yes, many have been on the site forever, followed hundreds of BW games, seen the game evolve time and time again. I understand and respect that. What I don't understand is the recurring compulsion to put new members in their place. If you truly believe yourselves to be better, more seasoned players, then why do these threads keep popping up? One would wonder if some of the older members feel threatened by SC2 and its playerbase. I don't really believe this to be the case. I started posting here during SC2 beta and never once had someone tell me I wasn't good enough for my opinion to matter. I think it's all in what you post and how you back it up. If you post some "I did X vs Terran and it's awesome and insane and everyone should do it" or "X is underused because I barely see it, but can't really explain how it can fit into a build" then people are going to call you out on it, possibly using superior skill or seniority as a reasoning. If you come out with good well thought out arguments and understand your perspective of them (as in you have had luck with this, so it might have potential vs this is amazing because I win with it no ifs ands or buts), no one is gonna call you out just on lack of skill or seniority. | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
On August 25 2010 05:14 Saracen wrote: This is not true at all (especially the comparison you made). It's one of the more common sentiments that's floating around these forums, and it's only there to make less-successful players feel better about themselves. But it's really not true. In this game, there's nothing that can replace experience. Not by watching Day[9], not by watching replays, not by watching livestreams. I really don't know what else I can say to convince you of this. All of the top players know this, and its people who believe otherwise that keep them from posting on these forums. Teamliquid is all about promoting open discussion and getting viewpoints from lots of different people. But it's people who believe they are master strategists but who put zero effort into the game that kill discussions. Because even though they think they know what's going on, the truth is they don't. They don't know timings. They don't know production capabilities. They don't know about responding to situations given limited information. The game's a lot different when you're playing it than when you're watching it. What would be the use of coaches in BW proteams then ? This is so false. I mean, seriously, playing a lot gives you a BIG edge in this, but saying that the better player necessarily knows more is utterly retarded, especially in a game where micro and macro is really important. (I might know all the timings and strategies, if my opponent has a WAY better micro and macro, hell still beat me and will be ranked higher, so I should listen to his strat ?) Experience gives you a big edge, but saying that playing is everything is completely wrong. With 50 games I would still be a way better strategist then the 1012341234 games bronze player. | ||
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Dragonsven
United States145 Posts
On August 25 2010 05:28 gdroxor wrote: My issue is the need for the old guard to constantly revalidate their superiority ad-nauseum. Yes, many have been on the site forever, followed hundreds of BW games, seen the game evolve time and time again. I understand and respect that. What I don't understand is the recurring compulsion to put new members in their place. If you truly believe yourselves to be better, more seasoned players, then why do these threads keep popping up? One would wonder if some of the older members feel threatened by SC2 and its playerbase. You said it better than I ever could. Good post. However, I have been around for a long time like a lot of these guys and it's not a new phenomenon. I wouldn't say they are threatened by the Starcraft 2 player base as much as they are trying to maintain an exclusive community. That is how they built this in the first place because they were not cool in real life but on BW they were Gods. If a "random diamond newb" thinks he knows as much about the game as you then you can't really maintain that illusion. The only problem is that this attitude and the goal of growing the site is in direct opposition to each other. | ||
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Tenryu
United States565 Posts
On August 25 2010 05:39 TurpinOS wrote: What would be the use of coaches in BW proteams then ? This is so false. I mean, seriously, playing a lot gives you a BIG edge in this, but saying that the better player necessarily knows more is utterly retarded, especially in a game where micro and macro is really important. (I might know all the timings and strategies, if my opponent has a WAY better micro and macro, hell still beat me and will be ranked higher, so I should listen to his strat ?) Micro and Macro is a form of experience and practice. Of course he will win. Edit: Which is what Saracen is arguing about. "Nothing can replace experience" | ||
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NihiloZero
United States68 Posts
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