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I just can't even comprehend how some people think the OP was saying "don't even try to argue with a top player because you're always wrong".
I think he's just saying we should all consider the possibility that someone much more experienced than we are may actually be right before we storm into a thread and start contradicting those more experienced people. It's the difference between saying "NO UR WRONG" and saying "My experience has been different" and discussing why that might be.
I also took it a little bit like encouragement to less experienced players to read those ratings as "this is the level at which I'm having success with X strategy" instead of "I am mid-level diamond and therefore undeniably right".
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There should be an adjustment to your league descriptions for zerg players. For example, platinum: "I'm a terran and know how to tie my shoes, or I'm a zerg who understands how to scout and counter several tricky P/T builds while constantly balancing difficult macro decisions and APM-consuming mechanics."
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On August 25 2010 04:10 Tufas wrote:
Why not - create a closed sub-section of the forum for those who rock but make it open viewable.
The more I think about it, the more I like it.
This, I guess, since the Strategy section is so contaminated that even the questionably capable hands of dr Hanson won't probably be enough to save it. Invite-only Strategy/Discussion forum could work out.
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On August 25 2010 04:16 Anzat wrote:
There should be an adjustment to your league descriptions for zerg players. For example, platinum: "I'm a terran and know how to tie my shoes, or I'm a zerg who understands how to scout and counter several tricky P/T builds while constantly balancing difficult macro decisions and APM-consuming mechanics."
I wonder how this garbage manages to sneak into every thread regardless of the initial subject.
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So A level players aren't allowed to play SC2, or..? Is this NA only?
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Calgary25998 Posts
On August 25 2010 04:10 Tufas wrote:
Why not - create a closed sub-section of the forum for those who rock but make it open viewable.
The more I think about it, the more I like it.
We discussed this internally for quite some time.
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I think what golds and plat share in this forum is even more interesting than what diamonds say tbh. Because i'm an average player and I want to know what average players do and think. I don't really care if 5rax reaper with perfect micro or mass muta are imba. Just want to hear fun stories and have a good laugh playing, that's what games are made for.
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On August 25 2010 04:10 Tufas wrote:
Why not - create a closed sub-section of the forum for those who rock but make it open viewable.
The more I think about it, the more I like it.
I would say that there are two problems with this. One is that there's value in lower level players having access to be able to ask questions or request clarification.
Another is that, as I suggested above, having to respond to even potentially mistaken ideas put forth by lower level players encourages careful, complete, well-argued posting by top players, which can improve the quality of the discussion for everyone.
Edit: The issue, of course, comes about if the noise on the forum becomes so loud as to drown out the top-end players. I do not yet have the feeling that Teamliquid is close to that point, but the moderators might disagree. In any case, that can be made better to some extent by the fact that the *truly* best players could, if they had a detailed discussion to present to the community, probably get admins to highlight their ideas as a front-page article.
Edit 2: Why not have occasional limited-access threads on popular topics that take the form of a panel discussion, with only 4 or 5 notable people posting? That would probably serve some of what people might be looking for from such a "locked" forum without raising people's hackles about elitism.
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On August 25 2010 04:17 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 04:16 Anzat wrote:
There should be an adjustment to your league descriptions for zerg players. For example, platinum: "I'm a terran and know how to tie my shoes, or I'm a zerg who understands how to scout and counter several tricky P/T builds while constantly balancing difficult macro decisions and APM-consuming mechanics." I wonder how this garbage manages to sneak into every thread regardless of the initial subject.
And I wonder why ppl constantly call Terran IMBA, because the race is good, but noone complains about P for being extremely easy to play... -.-°
This annoys me much more, because Terran will eventually get balanced, but Toss will continue to be much easier to play than the other races:
The Units are bigger with more health, so they are easier to control, there are a lot of incredibly powerful A-Move-Units and the few Spellcasters are so easy to micro thanks to Smartcasting. Besides that, Macroing out of ridiculously good Warpgates is so easy and overall it's too easy to just 1-base with Protoss.
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I like this thread. I'm Bronze League and I constantly find myself arresting Platinums and Diamond on their lack of common sense. So why am I Bronze League, if I know so much about the game and have a rather deep and esotheric understanding of the analytics of this game?
Because my MACRO is freaking pathetic, you imbeciles!! Aaargh *flaming rant* <3
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On August 25 2010 04:20 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 04:10 Tufas wrote:
Why not - create a closed sub-section of the forum for those who rock but make it open viewable.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. We discussed this internally for quite some time.
I think saracen just replies to that in this thread, he said it hurts the image of the website. "It" wants to be inclusive in as many ways possible, not exclusive.
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The "invite only" threads are a good idea, similar to strategy podcasts we had a while back.
There's room for both worlds perhaps :-)
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You're ranking is good, only 1 thing is wrong tho. You can have more points than the ranking thing if you play alot...
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On August 25 2010 04:21 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 04:17 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 04:16 Anzat wrote:
There should be an adjustment to your league descriptions for zerg players. For example, platinum: "I'm a terran and know how to tie my shoes, or I'm a zerg who understands how to scout and counter several tricky P/T builds while constantly balancing difficult macro decisions and APM-consuming mechanics." I wonder how this garbage manages to sneak into every thread regardless of the initial subject. The Units are bigger with more health, so they are easier to control, there are a lot of incredibly powerful A-Move-Units and the few Spellcasters are so easy to micro thanks to Smartcasting. Besides that, Macroing out of ridiculously good Warpgates is so easy and overall it's too easy to just 1-base with Protoss.
I play random a decent amount.. and you can always tell if someone has never played protoss from this sort of common statement. Warpgates are THE HARDEST unit producing structures to macro in the game, because you cannot press 5 and spam units while watching a battle you are microing as protoss. Making units from a warpgate is like going back to your base to make a building unless you are fighting at a pylon.
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the meta(game) is changing very rapidly for SC2 because it is so new. MMM was popular, then Mech, 2/1 and 1/1/1 and now reapers. This is all within less than a month for Terran. That said I think those rankings might be a little off, but generally speaking they're accurate. Since the game is changing so rapidly, with or without balance changes, i think thats where the little off comes in.
I've played and beat a Terran diamond as Terran, i may be a diamond caliber player but i am in platinum... and it was one of my few times playing as Terran. I main zerg(now) and i'm in platinum. Zerg being a reactionary race after the initial 4-5 minutes, there is a different skill involved. I can't go into a game and say 'i'm going to build zerg w/ meta speed, roaches, tech to spire and then go tier 3 on my 3rd base' against a 1/1/1 Terran, even with deception that is still horrible.
Just roll with the punches for now and don't discredit idra because he plays his build and loses. that guy is good if you like him or not.
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I agree that most people ~500-1100 diamond aren't very good. That's about as far as my agreement goes though.
Nobody knows jack shit about balance on this game. That includes the pros, the balance team at blizzard, anyone. At no point in the history of any RTS has anyone ever been correct about balance issues 1-2 months into the game. One month from now, the average top 100 player will be better than the pro of one month prior. The game just evolves so fast. The skill level between the average pro and top diamond right now is not that high.
Even the top zerg players were saying that pure mech is unbeatable as zerg and there is a balance problem a month or two ago. Now it turns out that good zerg players are beating mech and Thor's AA isn't that unbeatable after all. Back then, reapers were fine. Now they're broken, etc.
People shouldn't idolize opinions of the best players on this game. They don't know what the hell they're talking about just like anyone else.
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On August 25 2010 04:16 Anzat wrote:
There should be an adjustment to your league descriptions for zerg players. For example, platinum: "I'm a terran and know how to tie my shoes, or I'm a zerg who understands how to scout and counter several tricky P/T builds while constantly balancing difficult macro decisions and APM-consuming mechanics."
These kind of garbage posts should be a bannable offense nowadays. This has nothing to do with the thread.
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On August 25 2010 04:27 Three wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 04:21 kickinhead wrote:On August 25 2010 04:17 vyyye wrote:On August 25 2010 04:16 Anzat wrote:
There should be an adjustment to your league descriptions for zerg players. For example, platinum: "I'm a terran and know how to tie my shoes, or I'm a zerg who understands how to scout and counter several tricky P/T builds while constantly balancing difficult macro decisions and APM-consuming mechanics." I wonder how this garbage manages to sneak into every thread regardless of the initial subject. The Units are bigger with more health, so they are easier to control, there are a lot of incredibly powerful A-Move-Units and the few Spellcasters are so easy to micro thanks to Smartcasting. Besides that, Macroing out of ridiculously good Warpgates is so easy and overall it's too easy to just 1-base with Protoss. I play random a decent amount.. and you can always tell if someone has never played protoss from this sort of common statement. Warpgates are THE HARDEST unit producing structures to macro in the game, because you cannot press 5 and spam units while watching a battle you are microing as protoss. Making units from a warpgate is like going back to your base to make a building unless you are fighting at a pylon.
I play protoss too now. I played terran in the beta, zerg after release and now I'm playing protoss. I noticed that you need to plan ahead a lot in protoss. I have lost count of the times that I thought to put a proxy pylon near a common battlefield that let my reinforcements get there faster than the terran or zerg player. Still it does require constant attention but also allows for you to not make the common mistake of queing up too many units (which I always did as terran)
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This is my first post here but have read the forums basically since the last couple months of beta and just wanted to post in agreement with Chill regarding a bit more humility going a long way and ranks are brought up far too often when really they don't need to be. Of course this is hardly solely a problem to the SC community, so it's to be expected.
I have only played a dozen or so games overall on the ladder, am still working through the campaign and enjoying a lot of VODs/replays. I'll only say I'm neither rated terribly high or low and leave it at that. I will say that as a new player trying to get involved in the scene in any way it's pretty intimidating to read sites and see both professional players and just high-level players talking pretty condescendingly to each other, let alone people who are only low level diamond. As a community that I'm sure is mostly hoping to see the game get even bigger than it already is, I think it's important to try to make people feel less excluded. There are a LOT of people outside of diamond.
So, basically I agree with the original post, but I think it could be taken even a step further and rather than saying there are good and bad diamond players just remove rank from it completely. Like Tyler said, I think the big thing is to just back up any claim. Try to push conversations forward with some sort of data regardless of rating and let an actual conversation take off from there.
So uhhhh...Hi! I'm really not that much of an idiot.
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EPT
