A korean zerg player consumes her daily supply of Terran tears from her vanguished foes!
Rejoice my Brood! We shall overcome! Idra, our Overmind has set in motion the means to evolve and dominate the Terran scum! We will demoralize them! We will PWN them!
Today, Idra has demonstrated the magic box technique, using 20 mutalisks to take down 5-6 thors at a time and rendering Tarson's army useless. He uses a technique called the magic box that most of you are familiar with.
On August 22 2010 03:45 Qzy wrote: I'll help you here...
The magic box makes mutalisk extremely effective against all ground and even against thors, from which the splash damage DOES NOT WORK. Thors will only hit a single muta at a time. I believe this makes the mutalisk ACTUALLY USEFUL as a 100/100 unit.
On August 22 2010 03:43 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
RAGE At the magic box!
What does this mean for ZvT? Well for one, Terran has to be more careful about putting early pressure on as he will not have the macro to deal with this sort of mutalisk play. It will subsequently become harder for terrans to secure expansions with mass tanks/planetary fortresses. And since Mutas are flying units, chokes do not affect them, being one of the only zerg units that aren't affect by the "terrible terrible splash damage!!" syndrome. I can already imagine the QQ Terran players will generate.
^ 3xiLe doesn't like this!
On August 22 2010 05:03 3xiLe wrote: What 99% of players don't understand is that this is a glitch and it will be fixed/nerfed next patch.
For the time being calling terran "IMBA LOL" is retarded, as baneling and muta will be an unbreakable combo.
TvZ was less "broken" before favouring the terran (I never actually believed there was an imbalance, just that zerg players didn't find the gold strategy, this turns out to be it, a glitch...)
Now that it apparently favours the Zerg, which I actually do believe, TvZ actually is "broken."
You can spam as much QQLOL as you want, but just remember, it won't last, it will be patched.
A typical Terran player crying for Mutalisk nerfs
The power of mutalisks now leads to other strategies that zerg already has, little tricks they can use to pull ahead. Since marines are now pretty much the only good AA against muta besides vikings (And since vikings get wtfBBQpwned by mutas when clumped up) this opens up more baneling play. Not just any baneling play, but securing the map with mutalisks and then punishing a player to move out with baneling mines.
The effectiveness of baneling mines, no micro needed! Just set it and forget it! Right click unburrow, they act as spider mines but better! They still explode when killed!
Also the variation of being devastating at expansions using simple set, then detonate skills!
With the combination of these two things, terran players will be hard pressed to take any sort of map control mid or late game with this type of mass mutalisk play
Why a terran would walk onto a baneling, surround it, and try to kill it from melee distance I will never know. It's not viable unless you're playing against an idiot.
EDIT: Oh, wait. Ah, right click unburrow. Whoops. I thought the terran was trying to walk onto it and kill it. Nevermind.
Brian i am very disappointed, I thought you were above this. ;\ Oh well, when i saw the magic box i was fine with it, just means Zerg finally learned something new rather than throwing lines of units into our lines, a ball of units vs a line. its only what Terran has been doing for months.
On August 22 2010 03:16 The_Pacifist wrote: Why a terran would walk onto a baneling, surround it, and try to kill it from melee distance I will never know. It's not viable unless you're playing against an idiot.
Or if you don't have detection.....
And if you have detection....lets say raven, aren't you worried about mutalisks flying in and picking them off right as they spawn? it seems pretty bad to have to scan every 10 feet for a baneling mine.
Be smart about the mines...stagger them! don't clump them up (Maybe 2 in one spot for maxium damage.)
Interesting idea of killing the mineral line. I personally thought the idea for this trick was going to be destroying the nat being created early on so that they lose 400 (or 300) minerals and have no natural for even longer.
Now if we can only be able to defend 4 raxx reapers builds! Great post.. i think Zerg is slowly finding its way back into the spot light. I just find the tricks to becoming a good zerg are much,much more difficult then becoming a good terran.
Interesting idea of killing the mineral line. I personally thought the idea for this trick was going to be destroying the nat being created early on so that they lose 400 (or 300) minerals and have no natural for even longer.
Well, you saw how good it was at killing probes.
Honestly, I would have just used 4, the first and second with a small gap between each other, and the 3rd and 4th witha small gap too with a big gap between the 2nd and 3rd, because of the semi circle path the probes take you can take out and entire mineral line with FULL saturation with just 4 banes pretty much.
On August 22 2010 03:23 peachsncream wrote: these baneling "mines" don't work vs anybody who doesn't completely suck... or anybody who knows how to scout
Just like roaches unburrowing on top of an army doesn't work? You serious?
If baneling mine use becomes more common, so will terrans getting a raven early or maybe even massing ravens like SV's in BW (imagine marine,medivac, tank, ravens). Using the HSM to scare off magic box'd mutas with thors or just spamming PDD to reduce the effectiveness of mutas. not to mention mineral line harassment with AT's.
On August 22 2010 03:23 peachsncream wrote: these baneling "mines" don't work vs anybody who doesn't completely suck... or anybody who knows how to scout
Just like roaches unburrowing on top of an army doesn't work? You serious?
I've never lost to roaches unburrowing on top of my army.
I've started incorporating a lot more Raven/Marine instead of Thors into my play recently, if only for auto-turrets. It's actually pretty been pretty successful.
i dont think we even cried about mutalisk nerf..in fact im glad you guys finally figured something out that was already figured out in beta..maybe you guys should stop crying about terran now..but all in all im really glad for Idra and ive been rooted for dimaga/idra all tournament
These are some of the reasons why I have started including Ravens into my TvZ match ups lately.
Played many games with my Zerg practise partner who was practising the mass muta thing befor Idra now made it the Flavor of the week. (Watch, Every zerg and there mother will be doing mass muta tactics in all there ZvT now.) Was going bio to deal with the mutalisks which worked fine. But soon as banelings came it became to hard for me to handle, especially with the annoying mines.
Now Ravens imo nulify the banelings 100%, with HSM when your micro'in your ground units away. And also the turret helps alot. (use it like you would Force field with protoss!)
But can't wait for the new FOTW to hit, been practising against it for a good 2 weeks now :D
No shit- Sherlock, that's why I'm disappointed, cause you couldn't pull off anything original. The thing is, good terrans don't fear anything zerg throws at us, we just question what we should do next.
This thread seems sort of forced. There hasn't really been any Terran tears to speak of, whereas if you go on ladder, most Zerg players will be raging. These tactics are pretty interesting though.
On August 22 2010 03:35 Spyridon wrote: I think its funny that... when the Terran guy made the post about "Zerg tears" all the Terrans came out of the woodwork saying how funny the post was.
It seems the sarcasm went over their head.
And.... Look at them now.... "I thought you were above this"
Funny stuff =p
Actually I'm a friend of TLOBrian.. if you haven't noticed, and yes i get all the sarcasm, but this is in response to nothing but a parody and preemptive, also unoriginal. making it very stale. Although I admit it is very nice that zerg players got a nice little micro trick to help them out, I rly see no reason for this.
edit: It is good that such move was shown to much larger crowd, and gave an example how effective it can be. Because it much more different than seeing it on youtube done with the editor, and then seeing it in a real game.
No shit- Sherlock, that's why I'm disappointed, cause you couldn't pull off anything original. The thing is, good terrans don't fear anything zerg throws at us, we just question what we should do next.
I like how op is so "in your face" and badass with those pic and such.
gj figuring out stuff that was ingame since beta, i guess a couple of zergs decided to take a break from whining in the forums and decided to brainstorm for 15min.
on serious note, i never took the QQs as real for this reason, i genuinely feel that zerg players are probably the least creative, its extremely rare to find any atempt at anything new in like 200 games i played so far, i only remember this one guy that tried to take my own natural and blocked it off spine crawlers and thats it.
The replays and the pros games arent very different tbh.
Patch 1.1 - Thor's splash damage radius has been increased to 3.
Jokes aside, I'm really glad this showed up. This is quite a BW eske thing and hopefully will change a lot of the metagame (that I don't think Zerg early game doesn't needs some love).
And mby now people will realize thors are not a great counter to mutas... Who would have guess a unit that moves slower then spidermines isn't really that great vs mass air units...
On August 22 2010 03:50 xJaCEx wrote: And mby now people will realize thors are not a great counter to mutas... Who would have guess a unit that moves slower then spidermines isn't really that great vs mass air units...
shoots all over the map though, why would it need to move?
On August 22 2010 03:50 xJaCEx wrote: And mby now people will realize thors are not a great counter to mutas... Who would have guess a unit that moves slower then spidermines isn't really that great vs mass air units...
Actually the fact that thors have splash and their range made them great, they're still good against players with sloppy control but other than that not so good.
It's funny how big of an influence progamers have on noobs. Yesterday no terran whined after getting beaten by muta/bane but today I'm facing some serious QQ. 3 terrans in a row and every one of them cried hard in game.
TeamLiquid, please nerf TLOBrian, his posts own too much and are imbalanced.
3rd party statistics show that TLOBrians threads have an 80% win ratio compared with other imbalance threads. This is clearly too much win, and needs to be fixed.
My suggestions for nerfing TLOBrian:
Youtube tech should require youtube membership status in order to post, thereby requiring TLOBrian to macro up subscribers before he is allowed to post leet clips from replays.
Cat cuteness clearly needs a nerf. It is too powerful, and there are simply no hard counters that do not involve other cats. The future of TeamLiquid should not devolve into dozens of cat-balls that simply 1-post into each others threads. I would suggest reducing the amount of cute cats cause vs. nerds, while keeping their cute vs. normal people more constant.
Starting a thread with a picture of a good looking Korean girl is clearly cheese, designed to punish players who will then fail to scout the rest of the thread. I for one am used to more seriously oriented threads, in which a cheesy assault by female immediately at the start of the thread is not present. Do we want to allow TLOBrian to post in such an imbalanced manner? I think not. Clearly, everyone else needs a buff, so that we will have more scouting options so that we will know when an early rush by Korean girl is present.
On August 22 2010 03:16 The_Pacifist wrote: EDIT: Oh, wait. Ah, right click unburrow. Whoops. I thought the terran was trying to walk onto it and kill it. Nevermind.
tbh, u only need to press X to blow the marines without even knowing what hit them no need to unborrow
On August 22 2010 03:57 Ketara wrote: TeamLiquid, please nerf TLOBrian, his posts own too much and are imbalanced.
3rd party statistics show that TLOBrians threads have an 80% win ratio compared with other imbalance threads. This is clearly too much win, and needs to be fixed.
My suggestions for nerfing TLOBrian:
Youtube tech should require youtube membership status in order to post, thereby requiring TLOBrian to macro up subscribers before he is allowed to post leet clips from replays.
Cat cuteness clearly needs a nerf. It is too powerful, and there are simply no hard counters that do not involve other cats. The future of TeamLiquid should not devolve into dozens of cat-balls that simply 1-post into each others threads. I would suggest reducing the amount of cute cats cause vs. nerds, while keeping their cute vs. normal people more constant.
Starting a thread with a picture of a good looking Korean girl is clearly cheese, designed to punish players who will then fail to scout the rest of the thread. I for one am used to more seriously oriented threads, in which a cheesy assault by female immediately at the start of the thread is not present. Do we want to allow TLOBrian to post in such an imbalanced manner? I think not. Clearly, everyone else needs a buff, so that we will have more scouting options so that we will know when an early rush by Korean girl is present.
On August 22 2010 03:16 The_Pacifist wrote: EDIT: Oh, wait. Ah, right click unburrow. Whoops. I thought the terran was trying to walk onto it and kill it. Nevermind.
tbh, u only need to press X to blow the marines without even knowing what hit them no need to unborrow
The point is to set them and forget them, you're not going to be staring at the banelings all the time. Right clicking unburrow makes them pop up and explode automatically
On August 22 2010 03:57 pat965 wrote: finally zergs will stop complaining -_-
Well, tbh it wasn't so bad when zergs complained, it was somewhat legit. If I see a terran player crying over this.. well it's not gonna happen, I hope morrow incorporate something to handle this by tomorrow.
So much for the continuous threads of nerf terran mech it can't be beat blah blah blah.... Just let the game evolve. Strats develop over time.
Its always been known (at least to me and hopefully everyone else) that spread mutas can fight thors. I know that I for one was spreading my mutas an insanely difficult way this magic box thing is so much easier.
On August 22 2010 03:57 pat965 wrote: finally zergs will stop complaining -_-
Well, tbh it wasn't so bad when zergs complained, it was somewhat legit. If I see a terran player crying over this.. well it's not gonna happen, I hope morrow incorporate something to handle this by tomorrow.
Seems like marine + raven (PDD) with tank support would be pretty good.
Oh man that picture of dimaga is so awesome. At the IEM he somehow looks happy all the time.(No wonder with such a n1 fanbase there .) )
Also mass muta with magic box could become a strong midgame strat for zerg because the terran kind of has to make marines or nearly only thors and in either case zerg can techswitch fast to speedling or baneling.
Why are imbalanced threads allowed to be spammed? - for the lulz Where is the statistical data backed by professional player support? - made by trolls, DNE
GG to Idra. Nicely outplayed Tarson. I am all for expanding Zerg metagame.
On August 22 2010 03:57 Ketara wrote: TeamLiquid, please nerf TLOBrian, his posts own too much and are imbalanced.
3rd party statistics show that TLOBrians threads have an 80% win ratio compared with other imbalance threads. This is clearly too much win, and needs to be fixed.
My suggestions for nerfing TLOBrian:
Youtube tech should require youtube membership status in order to post, thereby requiring TLOBrian to macro up subscribers before he is allowed to post leet clips from replays.
Cat cuteness clearly needs a nerf. It is too powerful, and there are simply no hard counters that do not involve other cats. The future of TeamLiquid should not devolve into dozens of cat-balls that simply 1-post into each others threads. I would suggest reducing the amount of cute cats cause vs. nerds, while keeping their cute vs. normal people more constant.
Starting a thread with a picture of a good looking Korean girl is clearly cheese, designed to punish players who will then fail to scout the rest of the thread. I for one am used to more seriously oriented threads, in which a cheesy assault by female immediately at the start of the thread is not present. Do we want to allow TLOBrian to post in such an imbalanced manner? I think not. Clearly, everyone else needs a buff, so that we will have more scouting options so that we will know when an early rush by Korean girl is present.
No shit- Sherlock, that's why I'm disappointed, cause you couldn't pull off anything original. The thing is, good terrans don't fear anything zerg throws at us, we just question what we should do next.
I'm not going to cry, I'm actually very glad Zerg is figuring out more things about their race. Hopefully this matchup continues to develop a lot more and becomes more interesting over time.
Hmm. I don't really see this as something huge, i'm just glad Zerg has something like this. Apparently it took an instructional video on youtube for zerg players to realize they can't just A-move and stack up vs an unit that deals sick splash damage vs air.
A korean zerg player consumes her daily supply of Terran tears from her vanguished foes!
Rejoice my Brood! We shall overcome! Idra, our Overmind has set in motion the means to evolve and dominate the Terran scum! We will demoralize them! We will PWN them!
DONT READ: ESL RESULTS [spoiler]Today, Idra has demonstrated the magic box technique, using 20 mutalisks to take down 5-6 thors at a time and rendering Tarson's army useless. He uses a technique called the magic box that most of you are familiar with.
Wow, so IdrA does good against a Terran player who doesn't scout, masses too many Hellions and gets 4 Thors to deal with 20 Mutalisks and all of the sudden the matchup is fixed? Pretty sure Thors aren't the biggest issue with TvZ.
The early game will forever be the problem, reaper + hellion harassment, marine + hellion pushes. These are the real problems, as well as clear map imbalance that gives such a benefit to siege/thor drops.
Tears will continue, the matchup is nowhere near balanced, and for the record, Tarson should have gotten marines, he's foolish for pumping pure Thors against Mutalisk, it's that kind of train of thought that made Terran v Zerg so easy before, he's going mutalisk? LOL THORS
Perhaps now Terran players will have to use some diversity in their unit composition, but it by no means is a done deal.
On August 22 2010 04:24 Biowulf wrote: Wow, so IdrA does good against a Terran player who doesn't scout, masses too many Hellions and gets 4 Thors to deal with 20 Mutalisks and all of the sudden the matchup is fixed? Pretty sure Thors aren't the biggest issue with TvZ.
The early game will forever be the problem, reaper + hellion harassment, marine + hellion pushes. These are the real problems, as well as clear map imbalance that gives such a benefit to siege/thor drops.
Tears will continue, the matchup is nowhere near balanced, and for the record, Tarson should have gotten marines, he's foolish for pumping pure Thors against Mutalisk, it's that kind of train of thought that made Terran v Zerg so easy before, he's going mutalisk? LOL THORS
Perhaps now Terran players will have to use some diversity in their unit composition, but it by no means is a done deal.
If you mean adding 25 to 50% marines that die to banelings, yes.
Thank you so much for making a useful post detailing strategies Zerg can actually use to combat Terran ranged advantages, force additional scans and trepidation about moving out, etc.
On August 22 2010 04:30 Geo.Rion wrote: oh crap, another thread on these so called ""new"" """magic""" ""boxes"". I just shouldnt even start it...
If you think this is imbalanced, you are terrible, if you think this is new, you are uninformed. that sums it up.
READ THE FRIGGIN THREAD SON.
Seriously....
I really don't think you are old enough to be my father, maybe my little brother. And if you're saying read every post, i wont, i'm just saying you shouldnt create a thread about it, it's annoying enough that Terrans are crying about this stuff for the 2 reasons i named. 1. It's not OP, it's not unorthodox, it's really not hard to deal with it. 2. It's a known tactic, wich was used by lots of players. Apparently as it turned out 3/4 of Zergs were copying IdrArtosis in their ZvT style, but still. Making a useless thread which is neither funny nor informative nor solves any problem it's a bad idea. Period. Srry if i sound agresssive, im a bit tired, and sick of the ammount of nonesense i've read today on this page, no wonder most of the good players dont post here, props for the few who do and have the nerves to stay calm, i'm not that good, but it aches to hear all this whine/rage/surprise/amazment etc... from both races over this topic.
Everyone is talking about balance and skill and strategies after every single friggin game, like they would understand half of what they just saw on the stream.
The "zerg tears" thread was terrible enough, making one to screw with that is equally stupid, which is sad, as i like to think the average Zerg poster is more reasonable then the average Terran poster, and it's sad to see that proved wrong
That's a possibility I suppose, the magic box, but that requires you to fly directly over their thor which is probably right near their army full of marines because they saw you going mass muta. This isn't the end-all solution to mech though.
On August 22 2010 03:15 ShaperofDreams wrote: thanks for spoiling the Idra games for me.
It said spoilers in the title there genius
Really?
Rejoice my Brood! We shall overcome! Idra, our Overmind has set in motion the means to evolve and dominate the Terran scum! We will demoralize them! We will PWN them!
DONT READ: ESL RESULTS
That spoil me the games too... i mean come on after telling those first 2 lines and then => DONT READ: ESL RESULTS... Really?
On August 22 2010 04:51 Ketara wrote: Geo.Rion, can we gather by your above post that you do NOT think that TLOBrian is overpowered?
Please cite your sources and examples, and possible thread replays of evidence as to why TLOBrian is, in fact, not imba.
What? Who's talking about this Brian or whoever, i'm talking about the ridiculous discussion going about these "new magic boxes" which fueled the OP to make this useless thread. I might be missing something, point it out if i do, but to me it seem it's just another terrible thread which wants to be funny.
On August 22 2010 04:30 Geo.Rion wrote: oh crap, another thread on these so called ""new"" """magic""" ""boxes"". I just shouldnt even start it...
If you think this is imbalanced, you are terrible, if you think this is new, you are uninformed. that sums it up.
READ THE FRIGGIN THREAD SON.
Seriously....
I really don't think you are old enough to be my father, maybe my little brother. And if you're saying read every post, i wont, i'm just saying you shouldnt create a thread about it, it's annoying enough that Terrans are crying about this stuff for the 2 reasons i named. 1. It's not OP, it's not unorthodox, it's really not hard to deal with it. 2. It's a known tactic, wich was used by lots of players. Apparently as it turned out 3/4 of Zergs were copying IdrArtosis in their ZvT style, but still. Making a useless thread which is neither funny nor informative nor solves any problem it's a bad idea. Period. Srry if i sound agresssive, im a bit tired, and sick of the ammount of nonesense i've read today on this page, no wonder most of the good players dont post here, props for the few who do and have the nerves to stay calm, i'm not that good, but it aches to hear all this whine/rage/surprise/amazment etc... from both races over this topic.
Everyone is talking about balance and skill and strategies after every single friggin game, like they would understand half of what they just saw on the stream.
The "zerg tears" thread was terrible enough, making one to screw with that is equally stupid, which is sad, as i like to think the average Zerg poster is more reasonable then the average Terran poster, and it's sad to see that proved wrong
On August 22 2010 04:51 Ketara wrote: Geo.Rion, can we gather by your above post that you do NOT think that TLOBrian is overpowered?
Please cite your sources and examples, and possible thread replays of evidence as to why TLOBrian is, in fact, not imba.
What? Who's talking about this Brian or whoever, i'm talking about the ridiculous discussion going about these "new magic boxes" which fueled the OP to make this useless thread. I might be missing something, point it out if i do, but to me it seem it's just another terrible thread which wants to be funny.
I wish I had saved more of this dialogue, or even the replay, but I was too drunk on victory beer. This guy had been bragging all night about how awesome his ZvT was during our KOTH, and this was the night that the thread that started all this mess was posted. Over the course of the 35-40 minute game, he made a total of 8 marines and then nothing but thors, hellions, and tanks. After I murderized his thors, he just made more thors. I think I killed a total of 15 thors that game, with nothing but mutas.
I don't really think the magic box is quite the answer zerg has been looking for, 90% of zerg players have been aware of this since launch (it was discovered midway through the beta). Marines + missle turrets still tear mutalisks apart.
On August 22 2010 04:30 Geo.Rion wrote: oh crap, another thread on these so called ""new"" """magic""" ""boxes"". I just shouldnt even start it...
If you think this is imbalanced, you are terrible, if you think this is new, you are uninformed. that sums it up.
READ THE FRIGGIN THREAD SON.
Seriously....
I really don't think you are old enough to be my father, maybe my little brother. And if you're saying read every post, i wont, i'm just saying you shouldnt create a thread about it, it's annoying enough that Terrans are crying about this stuff for the 2 reasons i named. 1. It's not OP, it's not unorthodox, it's really not hard to deal with it. 2. It's a known tactic, wich was used by lots of players. Apparently as it turned out 3/4 of Zergs were copying IdrArtosis in their ZvT style, but still. Making a useless thread which is neither funny nor informative nor solves any problem it's a bad idea. Period. Srry if i sound agresssive, im a bit tired, and sick of the ammount of nonesense i've read today on this page, no wonder most of the good players dont post here, props for the few who do and have the nerves to stay calm, i'm not that good, but it aches to hear all this whine/rage/surprise/amazment etc... from both races over this topic.
Everyone is talking about balance and skill and strategies after every single friggin game, like they would understand half of what they just saw on the stream.
The "zerg tears" thread was terrible enough, making one to screw with that is equally stupid, which is sad, as i like to think the average Zerg poster is more reasonable then the average Terran poster, and it's sad to see that proved wrong
On August 22 2010 04:58 latan wrote: wow just yesterday i was thinking about putting burrowed banelings in the expansions' mineral line. i feel like my thoughts have just been stolen.
That tactic has been around since beta, so fear not... your ideas have not been stolen.
hmn... don't overrate using the magic box for making mutalisks useful. You often have to move and than use the stop command, making it hard to snipe certain things if you don't want mutas to stack.
It's a reason to throw more marines or generally bio units into the mix (Ghosts are also a nice counter to Muta). It makes the matchup more dynamic and fun, but it doesn't make Zerg imba.
I'd say that Idra won these games just because he is really good. He needed to find some gimmicky thing to regain faith into his TvZ and overcome his mindset of Terran just being imba.
On August 22 2010 04:58 latan wrote: wow just yesterday i was thinking about putting burrowed banelings in the expansions' mineral line. i feel like my thoughts have just been stolen.
You cannot hide thoughts from the Overmind, Idra.
Speaking of, wouldn't it be great to have a mod that changed the Zerg UI announcements/voice to Idra quotes? Bonus points if it could be done using the Overmind voice.
On August 22 2010 04:58 Voyager I wrote: This thread did seem pretty forced. Should have at least waited for some Terran players to complain about countering Mutas.
Also we can still spend the entire early game abusing you, so...
it was like 1 minute after Idra used this very old, very known, very standard trick
On August 22 2010 01:51 Gaxton wrote: How many days until Blizzard patch this? Any guesses?
It's so annoyign that all these noobs/uniformed players making a hype about ZvT moving from ridiculously T favored mu to perfectly balanced/ zerg favored/ muta-only matchup. What happened is that Idra did a normal trick with the right units against an army which wasnt meant to kill air, now OMFG, the whole world turned upside down.
On August 22 2010 05:03 3xiLe wrote: What 99% of players don't understand is that this is a glitch and it will be fixed/nerfed next patch.
For the time being calling terran "IMBA LOL" is retarded, as baneling and muta will be an unbreakable combo.
TvZ was less "broken" before favouring the terran (I never actually believed there was an imbalance, just that zerg players didn't find the gold strategy, this turns out to be it, a glitch...)
Now that it apparently favours the Zerg, which I actually do believe, TvZ actually is "broken."
You can spam as much QQLOL as you want, but just remember, it won't last, it will be patched.
Tarson still didnt get Raven with seeker missle that does 100 damage to anything.
And even if you run away with mutas the stupid missle can chase you for half the fucking map and your critical attack moment / vital area will have been lost.
On August 22 2010 05:06 ltortoise wrote: I thought it was well known that thors are bad against mutas with good micro behind them.
This is nothing new.
Yet thors were considered the hard counter to mutas by a lot of players. No, not only bronze players. More than one good zerg's said Thors completely nullify mutas.
epic response, thank you, proves my suspition about you being just a complete annoying noob
...You really did press ALT-f4....didn't you...
WOW, you seriously quoted a guy in your signature who made an amazingly stupid compliment about YOU? You, sir, won the most pathetic narcisist of the century title, quite easily btw...
On August 22 2010 05:08 decemvrie wrote: mass mutas only work up to a point.
Tarson still didnt get Raven with seeker missle that does 100 damage to anything.
And even if you run away with mutas the stupid missle can chase you for half the fucking map and your critical attack moment / vital area will have been lost.
Terran is still imbalanced.
good luck using HSM against mutas from someone that have decent micro skills
On August 22 2010 05:03 3xiLe wrote: What 99% of players don't understand is that this is a glitch and it will be fixed/nerfed next patch.
For the time being calling terran "IMBA LOL" is retarded, as baneling and muta will be an unbreakable combo.
TvZ was less "broken" before favouring the terran (I never actually believed there was an imbalance, just that zerg players didn't find the gold strategy, this turns out to be it, a glitch...)
Now that it apparently favours the Zerg, which I actually do believe, TvZ actually is "broken."
You can spam as much QQLOL as you want, but just remember, it won't last, it will be patched.
Auto spread is a glitch? What?
Blizzard intends that Thors do splash to air. Something that automatically stops them, not manually, is a glitch.
Blizzard designs the units to auto spread. The units auto spread.
On August 22 2010 05:03 3xiLe wrote: What 99% of players don't understand is that this is a glitch and it will be fixed/nerfed next patch.
For the time being calling terran "IMBA LOL" is retarded, as baneling and muta will be an unbreakable combo.
TvZ was less "broken" before favouring the terran (I never actually believed there was an imbalance, just that zerg players didn't find the gold strategy, this turns out to be it, a glitch...)
Now that it apparently favours the Zerg, which I actually do believe, TvZ actually is "broken."
You can spam as much QQLOL as you want, but just remember, it won't last, it will be patched.
On August 22 2010 05:03 3xiLe wrote: What 99% of players don't understand is that this is a glitch and it will be fixed/nerfed next patch.
For the time being calling terran "IMBA LOL" is retarded, as baneling and muta will be an unbreakable combo.
TvZ was less "broken" before favouring the terran (I never actually believed there was an imbalance, just that zerg players didn't find the gold strategy, this turns out to be it, a glitch...)
Now that it apparently favours the Zerg, which I actually do believe, TvZ actually is "broken."
You can spam as much QQLOL as you want, but just remember, it won't last, it will be patched.
Auto spread is a glitch? What?
Blizzard intends that Thors do splash to air. Something that automatically stops them, not manually, is a glitch.
There's nothing automatic there. You move the mutas that way, exactly because you want to avoid splash. It's not like you type : / avoid splash demage. Thors are still excellent against mutas, you just should let 4 thors alone fighting 30 mutas. i know such thing as positioning and micro are unknown for most terrans player which are below 1k point diamond, but still, they can do it too
On August 22 2010 05:08 decemvrie wrote: mass mutas only work up to a point.
Tarson still didnt get Raven with seeker missle that does 100 damage to anything.
And even if you run away with mutas the stupid missle can chase you for half the fucking map and your critical attack moment / vital area will have been lost.
Terran is still imbalanced.
You bring up an extremely expensive upgrade that does no damage to any competent player as an example, and then say terran's imbalanced.
epic response, thank you, proves my suspition about you being just a complete annoying noob
...You really did press ALT-f4....didn't you...
WOW, you seriously quoted a guy in your signature who made an amazingly stupid compliment about YOU? You, sir, won the most pathetic narcisist of the century title, quite easily btw...
Don't feed the trolls etc, etc.
<Obligatory comeback>
<Comment that assures a sense of superiority>
You can't flame me, I gots the formula of awesomeness.
On August 22 2010 05:03 3xiLe wrote: What 99% of players don't understand is that this is a glitch and it will be fixed/nerfed next patch.
For the time being calling terran "IMBA LOL" is retarded, as baneling and muta will be an unbreakable combo.
TvZ was less "broken" before favouring the terran (I never actually believed there was an imbalance, just that zerg players didn't find the gold strategy, this turns out to be it, a glitch...)
Now that it apparently favours the Zerg, which I actually do believe, TvZ actually is "broken."
You can spam as much QQLOL as you want, but just remember, it won't last, it will be patched.
Auto spread is a glitch? What?
Blizzard intends that Thors do splash to air. Something that automatically stops them, not manually, is a glitch.
There's nothing automatic there. You move the mutas that way, exactly because you want to avoid splash. It's not like you type : / avoid splash demage. Thors are still excellent against mutas, you just should let 4 thors alone fighting 30 mutas. i know such thing as positioning and micro are unknown for most terrans player which are below 1k point diamond, but still, they can do it too
epic response, thank you, proves my suspition about you being just a complete annoying noob
...You really did press ALT-f4....didn't you...
WOW, you seriously quoted a guy in your signature who made an amazingly stupid compliment about YOU? You, sir, won the most pathetic narcisist of the century title, quite easily btw...
Don't feed the trolls etc, etc.
<Obligatory comeback>
<Comment that assures a sense of superiority>
You can't flame me, I gots the formula of awesomeness.
You amaze me, seriously. How can you think you are awsome when you are clearly a terrible player, have no common sense and are not funny at the slightest? I guess the guy who you quote in your signature complimenting you, is your secound accout, i find it hard to believe a non-mentally demaged person would think you are even a bit above pathetic, after reading more then 1 post from you.
What I fear the most for Terran player right now is not the upcoming Mass Muta Battle, because that can be handled by Mass Marines, PDD's, Seeker Missle, Turrets etc. but the main problem becomes the Thor itself.
Seriously, when Zerg Player start to use that technique more often, the Thor will be turn into complete garbage...
epic response, thank you, proves my suspition about you being just a complete annoying noob
...You really did press ALT-f4....didn't you...
WOW, you seriously quoted a guy in your signature who made an amazingly stupid compliment about YOU? You, sir, won the most pathetic narcisist of the century title, quite easily btw...
Don't feed the trolls etc, etc.
<Obligatory comeback>
<Comment that assures a sense of superiority>
You can't flame me, I gots the formula of awesomeness.
You amaze me, seriously. How can you think you are awsome when you are clearly a terrible player, have no common sense and are not funny at the slightest? I guess the guy who you quote in your signature complimenting you, is your secound accout, i find it hard to believe a non-mentally demaged person would think you are even a bit above pathetic, after reading more then 1 post from you.
On August 22 2010 05:06 ltortoise wrote: I thought it was well known that thors are bad against mutas with good micro behind them.
This is nothing new.
Yet thors were considered the hard counter to mutas by a lot of players. No, not only bronze players. More than one good zerg's said Thors completely nullify mutas.
Eh, I think people just develop knee-jerk reactions to things and simply refuse to believe that something works, for whatever reason. I tested it with friends during phase 1, and our conclusion was that the only time you should ever make thors vs mutas is if you are really confident that the zerg can't micro his mutas.
I've found marines, missile turrets, and ravens to be plenty sufficient in dealing with mutas.
Wow, this post makes no sense. Usually when you use 'satire' or 'parody' for comedic value, you're poking fun at something that actually exists in real life. Terran players don't QQ about zerg rarely ever, literally 90% of the whine threads on this site are made by Zerg players.
I'm trying to find the funny in this but I was left disappointed.
this is a terrible flamefest thread, not even funny at all. since when was this a race war? i play terran cause i played it in sc1, i really dont care about who cries about what i just play the game for fun.
On August 22 2010 04:58 latan wrote: wow just yesterday i was thinking about putting burrowed banelings in the expansions' mineral line. i feel like my thoughts have just been stolen.
That tactic has been around since beta, so fear not... your ideas have not been stolen.
yeah well of course i never thought my idea was going to be a first. but i just thought about it yesterday night and now i see this thread. gives me a weird feeling, y'know?
Only person that was successfully trolled by this thread is a Zerg, except maybe for the guy who thinks spreading units out to avoid splash damage is an exploit.
On August 22 2010 05:24 silver_fox wrote: this is a terrible flamefest thread, not even funny at all. since when was this a race war? i play terran cause i played it in sc1, i really dont care about who cries about what i just play the game for fun.
yeah it makes me laugh how people actually identify with their preferred race as if it was their nationality. everyone is such a patriot, maybe someone should tell them that patriotism is kinda silly, even more if it's imaginary.
so if thors arent the hard counter to mutas then the terran will start making marines and turrets. sounds like prime time to back tech to sling/bling, an infestor would just seal the deal.
seriously anytime a terran starts massing marines i just smile inside because i know i will crush them.
and to everyone saying the magic box muta thing has been known since phase 1 of the beta how come NO ONE MENTIONED IT in the dozens of zvt threads on this forum and others.
Why don't T players get hi-sec auto tracking.... +1 turret range seems like a no brainer, and the upgrade is pretty cheap. Since terran is already spamming turrets to nullify mutalisks, might as well make them stronger.
8 range turrets is stupid dumb.
I was extremely pleased with the muta / baneling / ling strats that the zerg players were using. the play-off games were gr8. Finally people are using all of zerg's units.
Thank god hopefully now alot of the T's will switch to Z so i dont have to play tvt all day. And now as well TvZ will actully be fun rather than me rofflestomping every Z.
On August 22 2010 05:33 Vaporized wrote: so if thors arent the hard counter to mutas then the terran will start making marines and turrets. sounds like prime time to back tech to sling/bling, an infestor would just seal the deal.
seriously anytime a terran starts massing marines i just smile inside because i know i will crush them.
Ah, zerg with infinite gas? You're going to mass mutas, and banelings, and make infestors as well?
I didn't say you can beat a zerg just by making a bunch of marines and missile turrets... I was simply saying IF a zerg is massing mutas, I personally deal with it by ramping up marine production and making some turrets.
If the zerg starts massing up something different besides mutas, then obviously you have to deal with it in a different way...
On August 22 2010 05:33 Vaporized wrote: so if thors arent the hard counter to mutas then the terran will start making marines and turrets. sounds like prime time to back tech to sling/bling, an infestor would just seal the deal.
seriously anytime a terran starts massing marines i just smile inside because i know i will crush them.
Ah, zerg with infinite gas? You're going to mass mutas, and banelings, and make infestors as well?
I didn't say you can beat a zerg just by making a bunch of marines and missile turrets... I was simply saying IF a zerg is massing mutas, I personally deal with it by ramping up marine production and making some turrets.
If the zerg starts massing up something different besides mutas, then obviously you have to deal with it in a different way...
Not really saying tryin got build 10^20 Banelings, but maybe 1 or 2 to every other muta you have, burrowing them and restricting movement for the marines so the mutas can go to work. You can also try to be sneaky and maybe drop some baneling in the back of his base and then burrow them ...when the mutas come around you can bate the marines in if you want.
Well, ravens are a core unit in TvZ for many reasons... burrow being one of them... A few banelings isn't really going to cut it. They are easy to snipe.
On August 22 2010 05:41 ltortoise wrote: Well, ravens are a core unit in TvZ for many reasons... burrow being one of them... A few banelings isn't really going to cut it. They are easy to snipe.
I can't accept anything that simple, brian...You obviously have to protect your ravens. If you try to snipe *MY* raven, you're going to lose QUITE A FEW mutas doing it. And quite frankly I tend to make plenty of ravens because of PDD...It's not like I mass them or anything, but generally I won't have just one unless it's my first one. And when I do have them, chances are they are sitting right on top of my main force, with possibly a PDD planted there.
You're going to have a tough time just running in and sniping them without taking heavy losses. Things aren't as simple as you say.
On August 22 2010 05:49 ltortoise wrote: I can't accept anything that simple, brian...You obviously have to protect your ravens. If you try to snipe *MY* raven, you're going to lose QUITE A FEW mutas doing it. And quite frankly I tend to make plenty of ravens because of PDD...It's not like I mass them or anything, but generally I won't have just one unless it's my first one. And when I do have them, chances are they are sitting right on top of my main force, with possibly a PDD planted there.
You're going to have a tough time just running in and sniping them without taking heavy losses. Things aren't as simple as you say.
Thats why I love this, the better player will come out on top! : D You have to have really good control, both people do.
On August 22 2010 05:31 checo wrote: Can someone plz fix the first line in this OP??? Completly spoils ESL
Tis what the spoilers tag is for, read at your own risk
Sorry but for nyone with half a brain its a spoil
Rejoice my Brood! We shall overcome! Idra, our Overmind has set in motion the means to evolve and dominate the Terran scum! We will demoralize them! We will PWN them!
now the trick is actually staying alive to take advantage of this in the early midgame, which gets rough while getting harassed by reapers/hellions all early game.
On August 22 2010 05:33 Vaporized wrote: so if thors arent the hard counter to mutas then the terran will start making marines and turrets. sounds like prime time to back tech to sling/bling, an infestor would just seal the deal.
seriously anytime a terran starts massing marines i just smile inside because i know i will crush them.
Ah, zerg with infinite gas? You're going to mass mutas, and banelings, and make infestors as well?
I didn't say you can beat a zerg just by making a bunch of marines and missile turrets... I was simply saying IF a zerg is massing mutas, I personally deal with it by ramping up marine production and making some turrets.
If the zerg starts massing up something different besides mutas, then obviously you have to deal with it in a different way...
never played zerg huh?
once you are on 3 or 4 bases you can pump 25 mutas and have gas for some banelings. you dont need that many. lings to spend your excess minerals. sounds good to me.
reapers should be removed from multiplayer. NO ONE uses them outside of early harass. hellions are enough early game pressure. reapers are too much.
ta2, vods will be up in a bit, check the ESL replay thread in the tournaments section. And regarding the actual topic. Them terran tears be delicious. There are many strategies that work against this style of play, I cannot see blizzard doing anything to this 'trick', as they sat back and did nothing by obnoxious reaper strategies ripped out a week after release.
On August 22 2010 03:26 RoyalCheese wrote: hmm maybe im blind but i haven't seen any terran posts crying for mutalisk nerf on teamliquid
Nor have there been any nerfs to terran. Find it a bit funny tbh that zerg players come here after moaning for a month or two and suddenly ZvT is fine? And even indicate that T are crying? Zerg is a lot stronger than Z players do realize and tbh I think muta usage is just the first step in zerg ownage.
The niche of the zerg is a lot more tactic based, using your units right, while terran is more picking the right unit for the situation/game in question. Hence II believe it just takes the zerg players a bit longer to learn the tricks of the trade for z than terran for t(and tbh t has a lot more... vocal[for lack of better word] players making BOs and 'breakthroughs' in terran tactics, be it due to terran being twice more or because we just got lucky with TLO, Jinro, Maka, tarson, bratok and I could prob go on and on)
With this thread I do hope we can relax on the 'ZvT is imba' threads though.
Note though that freezeframe really only came up with the name for it and posting an official thread about the technique itself. I believe the real credit has to go to D-Rose for being the first to post about the idea with replays.
Note though that freezeframe really only came up with the name for it and posting an official thread about the technique itself. I believe the real credit has to go to D-Rose for being the first to post about the idea with replays.
I see lots of mass-ghost-play's coming up - theyrape mutas and r decent against blings... And u can easily switch to ghosts out of the mass-reaper opening...
Note though that freezeframe really only came up with the name for it and posting an official thread about the technique itself. I believe the real credit has to go to D-Rose for being the first to post about the idea with replays.
why the fuck is everyone on the dick of this mutalisk "trick"
people have been doing this since early phase 2, jesus. it changes nothing. if you didnt know about it you don't even get to have an opinion on the balance of the matchup.
second, its not magic boxes. it's fucking moving your units. magic boxes referred to having units in a specific formation that let them multi cast spells spread out over an area, and what you could to make mutalisks stack.
THIS IS NEITHER
this is the air equivalent of surrounding with lings. move past then attack move. there is no abuse of the engine or any glitches.
On August 22 2010 06:36 kickinhead wrote: I see lots of mass-ghost-play's coming up - theyrape mutas and r decent against blings... And u can easily switch to ghosts out of the mass-reaper opening...
Omg that was a joke vs a bad zerg . All you do is make lings and 3 overseers
Hasn't this "tears" thing already been done before? I didn't know Terrans cried about Zerg; that's pathetic.
I like this micro "glitch" you can abuse with Mutalisks and I hope they don't fix it for entertainment reasons. Although I like Morrow's style, I'm rooting for IdrA
On August 22 2010 03:17 HaGuN wrote: Brian i am very disappointed, I thought you were above this. ;\ Oh well, when i saw the magic box i was fine with it, just means Zerg finally learned something new rather than throwing lines of units into our lines, a ball of units vs a line. its only what Terran has been doing for months.
On August 22 2010 06:36 kickinhead wrote: I see lots of mass-ghost-play's coming up - theyrape mutas and r decent against blings... And u can easily switch to ghosts out of the mass-reaper opening...
Omg that was a joke vs a bad zerg . All you do is make lings and 3 overseers
Not really... Incorporate them into Mass-marines and don't rely on gimmicky cloaking and they totally rip apart mutas, snipe Blings before they reach the Marines, EMP Infestors etc.
I've been doing this builds several times on Top Diamond-Level (~900 ELO) and it has no Problems dealing with Mutas or Blings and if you adjust the Number of Marauders right, you can pretty much beat any Zerg-Army-composition pretty easily. They are even very good in the Lategame, cuz they snipe Broodlords from a distance and the sniper-round is actually pretty useful against Ultras.
Ghosts are IMHO the most underused Terran-Unit in TvZ although they are IMHO very very strong in that MU and I've seen Top-players like Jinro use them several times...
On August 22 2010 06:42 Fantistic wrote: Hasn't this "tears" thing already been done before? I didn't know Terrans cried about Zerg; that's pathetic.
I like this micro "glitch" you can abuse with Mutalisks and I hope they don't fix it for entertainment reasons. Although I like Morrow's style, I'm rooting for IdrA
so whats your definition of glitch? If moving and then stopping your units is a glitch then god damnit blizzard is going to have to remove the hellion and the reaper... I'm sorry but your not helping the Terran stereotype when posting such idiotic nonsense.
I think Tarson played right into Idra's hands, realy, doing a ridiculous amount of hellions with only 4 thors to handle around 20 mutalisks. I believe that when something like vikings/marines and even turrets shows up in fights the fragile zergs flyers wont be as gamebreaking.
Made up Scenario: 2 thors, 10 vikings along with regular mix of tanks/hellions (blue fire ofc :D)/marines push out while zerg composition is mainly muta/ling/bling, just think about how many free shots vikings will get while mutas get in thors range and how split muta dmg will be by not focusing fire the thors since you dont want your mutas to stack.
On August 22 2010 06:42 Fantistic wrote: Hasn't this "tears" thing already been done before? I didn't know Terrans cried about Zerg; that's pathetic.
I like this micro "glitch" you can abuse with Mutalisks and I hope they don't fix it for entertainment reasons. Although I like Morrow's style, I'm rooting for IdrA
lol why do people call this a glitch? you fly over you stop...whats wrong with that, maybe its thors who r glitched huh??!
haha terran players may actually need skill now omg and how can it possibly be a glitch? the game has always spread units out like that and the very sad thing will be if terrans complain z op because 5 thors cant kill 4x the amount of mutas
On August 22 2010 06:42 Fantistic wrote: Hasn't this "tears" thing already been done before? I didn't know Terrans cried about Zerg; that's pathetic.
I like this micro "glitch" you can abuse with Mutalisks and I hope they don't fix it for entertainment reasons. Although I like Morrow's style, I'm rooting for IdrA
lol why do people call this a glitch? you fly over you stop...whats wrong with that, maybe its thors who r glitched huh??!
It's not really imba. It just means Thors can't be the only anti-air unit. Marines + turrets have to be there in large numbers. Tarson didn't have enough marines.
Idra was MUCH more heavily invested into Muta than Tarson was invested into Thors, so of course he annihilated them - Tarson just over-invested in an anti-ground army (Tanks and lots of Hellions) to fight Idra-macro'd mass Muta.
I think I learned from a Day[9] Daily that the most devastating combination vs Muta is Thors and Marines, and I hardly saw any marines (was there even 1 late game?) from Tarson against an army that was 95% invested in Muta. Marines do great damage to Muta whether they are spread or clumped and they also fit between and around the Thors for maximum dps.
EDIT: vikings and ghosts can both kill Mutalisks too. I don't think Tarson made any of those either. He didn't do himself any favors.
tl;dr: mass muta is probably not the answer to zerg's woes vs terran
I don't think people have a problem with Terran tears thread but there is barely any crying over this compared to the deluge of Zerg ones, and yesterday Zergs were whining about TvZ and asking Blizzard to nerf T to oblivion. The very next day, we have a tears thread and saying how ZvT is saved.
So you guys were bitching about nothing? Or are you just overreacting to something that people have been doing since beta? (Hint: Not clumping up your mutas like morons, actually testing to see if mutas will kill thors instead of listening to conventional wisdom, etc.)
On August 22 2010 06:42 Fantistic wrote: I like this micro "glitch" you can abuse with Mutalisks and I hope they don't fix it for entertainment reasons.
How do you think it's a "glitch"? You think it's a coincidence that Blizzard has the AoE range EXACTLY the size of the spread of Mutas?
On August 22 2010 07:07 Arakash wrote: aahhh... Cry! Cry for me! hahaha
BTT: i didn't even realise how much of an impact that would have, but to see the Terrans who would create "Zerg Tear" Threads and shouting "l2p!!" left and right, it really is just such an satisfaction. Even more when even these guys start crying and do excatly what the Zerg players did before the Magic Box. Fucking hyprocites.
I know that i could get warned for this post, but it's just so ironically and funny :D.
(But since this whole Thread is about that, I'm just contributing to the Thread ;P)
I'm a bit confused where are all these Terran cry posts that people keep speaking of? Because as far I know Zerg players have been the ones crying an spamming the SC2 section with whine threads for the past month to the point in which the mods were thinking of banned people for creating more. As for the "Magic box"... GOOD we can finally move beyond this "As soon as Terran gets a Thor out Mutas become worthless!" mind set. An yes in that Idra game he did have way more invested in them then the Thors he was fighting.
On August 22 2010 06:42 Fantistic wrote: Hasn't this "tears" thing already been done before? I didn't know Terrans cried about Zerg; that's pathetic.
I like this micro "glitch" you can abuse with Mutalisks and I hope they don't fix it for entertainment reasons. Although I like Morrow's style, I'm rooting for IdrA
lol why do people call this a glitch? you fly over you stop...whats wrong with that, maybe its thors who r glitched huh??!
Sigh. Why did I even post in this troll thread...
Would agreeing with you not make us trolls in your eyes? I almost thought I was being trolled when reading your initial post and if thats the case your damn good at it :p.
On August 22 2010 06:37 Tropics wrote: why the fuck is everyone on the dick of this mutalisk "trick"
people have been doing this since early phase 2, jesus. it changes nothing. if you didnt know about it you don't even get to have an opinion on the balance of the matchup.
second, its not magic boxes. it's fucking moving your units. magic boxes referred to having units in a specific formation that let them multi cast spells spread out over an area, and what you could to make mutalisks stack.
THIS IS NEITHER
this is the air equivalent of surrounding with lings. move past then attack move. there is no abuse of the engine or any glitches.
?
This has been done way before phase 2, lol.
And the magic box IS involved. The air magic box is decently sized, and is easily usable. Spread out the mutas, box them, move them. If you box too large and move, they start clumping. If you box the right size, they don't converge, allowing you to rape thors all day long.
On August 22 2010 06:36 kickinhead wrote: I see lots of mass-ghost-play's coming up - theyrape mutas and r decent against blings... And u can easily switch to ghosts out of the mass-reaper opening...
marines already rape mutas. i do think ghost are good in tvz but only in few numbers.
On August 22 2010 05:20 Mentymion wrote: Seriously, when Zerg Player start to use that technique more often, the Thor will be turn into complete garbage...
so are carriers and mothership and nothing is done about it xD
On August 22 2010 07:05 gogogadgetflow wrote: Seriously OP and bandwagon...
Idra was MUCH more heavily invested into Muta than Tarson was invested into Thors, so of course he annihilated them - Tarson just over-invested in an anti-ground army (Tanks and lots of Hellions) to fight Idra-macro'd mass Muta.
I think I learned from a Day[9] Daily that the most devastating combination vs Muta is Thors and Marines, and I hardly saw any marines (was there even 1 late game?) from Tarson against a army that was 95% invested in Muta. Marines do great damage to Muta whether they are spread or clumped and they also fit between and around the Thors for maximum dps.
EDIT: vikings and ghosts can both kill Mutalisks too. I don't think Tarson made many of those either. He didn't do himself any favors.
tl;dr: mass muta is probably not the answer to zerg's woes vs terran
It's the answer to make terran play something else than pure mech atleast. And it's the only thing we needed.
On August 22 2010 07:48 Error Ash wrote: lol how is this trick new? Weeks ago someone posted a thread here with exactly that trick. And i have been using it for quite some time too...
Who said it was new? Merely underused. And now that people have seen it in a tournament more people will be inclined to use this.
On August 22 2010 07:43 hystorm wrote: I think this is more of IdrA owning than Zerg owning
lmao @ Idra as Terran in TLPD
he switched from zerg to terran in sc1 because ZvT was too hard.
then bashes people who switch from z to t in SC2 even though ZvT is even harder.
im pretty sure he switched because all his clan members where zerg and he hated zvz
also zvt was hard in broodwar? TvZ in broodwar was arguably the most apm intensive match terran side
I'm pretty sure TvP is more APM intensive in BW - mines, seiging, EMP. MnM micro is hard, but it's not not as APM intensive.
ZvT is most APM intensive for zerg (not really counting ZvZ, since that's just muta micro for the most part) for zerg, and Terran has always had an advantage over zerg in BW; I can't believe you're even trying to portray it any other way.
As for this, I feel like it's a bit of a false hope right now; it's not like magic boxes didn't exist and that spreading units didn't exist before either. This is going to make going muta stronger, but it's a bit early to claim "ZVT IMBA" and likely the only terrans qqing are noobs anyways.
Sitting units still and the game AI doing what it's intended to do and split units is a glitch? "WAAHHH THEYRE DOING WHAT COUNTERS MY BUILD. IMBA IMBA IMBA NERF NERF I WANT TO WIN EVERYTHING AGAIN"
On August 22 2010 04:58 MoNoNauT wrote: I wish I had saved more of this dialogue, or even the replay, but I was too drunk on victory beer. This guy had been bragging all night about how awesome his ZvT was during our KOTH, and this was the night that the thread that started all this mess was posted. Over the course of the 35-40 minute game, he made a total of 8 marines and then nothing but thors, hellions, and tanks. After I murderized his thors, he just made more thors. I think I killed a total of 15 thors that game, with nothing but mutas.
You zerg people need some innovative play instead of just complaining about the imbalance. Zerg is indeed harder to play which makes them less attractive for some people. But the imbalance is.. maybe just slighty at the start but not magnificent as some(MOST) make it out to be. The speed and mapcontrol of the zerg can be insane.
On August 22 2010 07:04 rockon1215 wrote: It's not really imba. It just means Thors can't be the only anti-air unit. Marines + turrets have to be there in large numbers. Tarson didn't have enough marines.
This. You use Thors because they have long enough range to cover a base or army where Marines could get danced around, preventing Mutas from getting free shots at anything. Then you back them up with plenty of Marines so the Mutas can't just overwhelm the Thors and rape everything.
Of course, this means you actually have to control your army and keep Marines alive against the threat of Infestors and Banelings instead of just slamming out pure Mech and winning.
I can bet Blizzard will nerf Zerg not Terran , try playing upper Diamond again Zerg as Terran , its a mess, people like Idra(can i say retards ? ) whine about Terran but some Zerg builds and i dare to say units are realy OP , think worst is banling + early Mutalisks People that whine about Terran OP dont know how to play zerg !
On August 22 2010 07:04 rockon1215 wrote: It's not really imba. It just means Thors can't be the only anti-air unit. Marines + turrets have to be there in large numbers. Tarson didn't have enough marines.
This. You use Thors because they have long enough range to cover a base or army where Marines could get danced around, preventing Mutas from getting free shots at anything. Then you back them up with plenty of Marines so the Mutas can't just overwhelm the Thors and rape everything.
Of course, this means you actually have to control your army and keep Marines alive against the threat of Infestors and Banelings instead of just slamming out pure Mech and winning.
It means pure mech is dead. It also means a lot of Thor based timing pushes don't work, and it means Terran overall is a lot more vulnerable. You HAVE to get some more anti air now, and that's a big deal. Marines are iffy at best, vikings aren't super cost effective, and ravens are so gas heavy they cut into everything else. It makes the matchup a lot more variable, and I like that a lot.
On August 22 2010 06:42 StarcraftMan wrote: Oh good. All the Z whiners can now shut up after Idra demonstrated how to beat T players in a high level competition.
Oh hey, the "IdrA beats terran so zerg must be fine" argument again. The issue has not primarily been with mid/late game. It is the early game that makes ZvT so difficult. IdrA (among others) admits this. Even Terrans are starting to think the MU is OP, see Morrow's interview. This muta micro is something that has been known since beta...
On August 22 2010 04:58 MoNoNauT wrote: I wish I had saved more of this dialogue, or even the replay, but I was too drunk on victory beer. This guy had been bragging all night about how awesome his ZvT was during our KOTH, and this was the night that the thread that started all this mess was posted. Over the course of the 35-40 minute game, he made a total of 8 marines and then nothing but thors, hellions, and tanks. After I murderized his thors, he just made more thors. I think I killed a total of 15 thors that game, with nothing but mutas.
You zerg people need some innovative play instead of just complaining about the imbalance. Zerg is indeed harder to play which makes them less attractive for some people. But the imbalance is.. maybe just slighty at the start but not magnificent as some(MOST) make it out to be. The speed and mapcontrol of the zerg can be insane.
( Totally no 'hate' vs you MoNoNauT )
Granted, much of the "ZvT is broken!" cries come from people who post like this, but there is still plenty a terran can do long before a good number of mutas come out that is the problem. I am a 500 point diamond zerg, and I know that little of the imbalance affects me because I am as likely to lose a match to a push as to my macro slipping up. The problem is as the community gets better, it will become more and more obvious, and we cannot rely on half-remembered tricks from the beta to come and improve a matchup.
Talk about projectionism. The only tears that have been flowing have been Zerg players who have polluted message boards (including this one) about 'imbalance'. Citing Idra is an extremely poor example since Idra is famous for his 'tears' and 'rage'.
There is nothing new here. I played exclusively Zerg during the beta, and we knew not to clump up mutalisks when attacking thors. Thors are poor for anti-air purposes. As a Terran player now, I never build thors because they are slow and do not make good anti-air. Marines, ghosts, and vikings work much better.
On August 22 2010 06:37 Tropics wrote: why the fuck is everyone on the dick of this mutalisk "trick"
people have been doing this since early phase 2, jesus. it changes nothing. if you didnt know about it you don't even get to have an opinion on the balance of the matchup.
second, its not magic boxes. it's fucking moving your units.
Exactly. The Starcraft community, which we must admit is made up of mostly young kids, are fond of 'jargon' and calling a spade some sort of unique special flowery name (e.g. what we called 'efficiency' or 'economy' is now placed under the nebulous umbrella term of 'macro' ). Now 'magic box' will be added to the pollution of language even though people have not only been doing this with mutalisks in the beta, they have been doing this in RTS games since over a decade ago.
On August 22 2010 04:58 MoNoNauT wrote: I wish I had saved more of this dialogue, or even the replay, but I was too drunk on victory beer. This guy had been bragging all night about how awesome his ZvT was during our KOTH, and this was the night that the thread that started all this mess was posted. Over the course of the 35-40 minute game, he made a total of 8 marines and then nothing but thors, hellions, and tanks. After I murderized his thors, he just made more thors. I think I killed a total of 15 thors that game, with nothing but mutas.
You zerg people need some innovative play instead of just complaining about the imbalance. Zerg is indeed harder to play which makes them less attractive for some people. But the imbalance is.. maybe just slighty at the start but not magnificent as some(MOST) make it out to be. The speed and mapcontrol of the zerg can be insane.
( Totally no 'hate' vs you MoNoNauT )
When did MoNoNauT complain? All he's discussing is that he was able to win using Magic Box and Mutalisks.
Whether or not people do something doesn't matter. Believe it or not, but most pros don't read Team Liquid. So when a pro like IdrA does it, it shows that it's actually strong. And this is a big deal due to it shutting down mech. It'd be like having a zerg build that completely shut down templar or something. It's incredibly limiting to the Terran. Of course this is all theory crafting, but I can think of numerous games off the top of my head that won't work with good muta micro.
On August 22 2010 09:37 Macavity wrote: Talk about projectionism. The only tears that have been flowing have been Zerg players who have polluted message boards (including this one) about 'imbalance'. Citing Idra is an extremely poor example since Idra is famous for his 'tears' and 'rage'.
There is nothing new here. I played exclusively Zerg during the beta, and we knew not to clump up mutalisks when attacking thors. Thors are poor for anti-air purposes. As a Terran player now, I never build thors because they are slow and do not make good anti-air. Marines, ghosts, and vikings work much better.
On August 22 2010 06:37 Tropics wrote: why the fuck is everyone on the dick of this mutalisk "trick"
people have been doing this since early phase 2, jesus. it changes nothing. if you didnt know about it you don't even get to have an opinion on the balance of the matchup.
second, its not magic boxes. it's fucking moving your units.
Exactly. The Starcraft community, which we must admit is made up of mostly young kids, are fond of 'jargon' and calling a spade some sort of unique special flowery name (e.g. what we called 'efficiency' or 'economy' is now placed under the nebulous umbrella term of 'macro' ). Now 'magic box' will be added to the pollution of language even though people have not only been doing this with mutalisks in the beta, they have been doing this in RTS games since over a decade ago.
Lol.
I don't understand why you're so mad sir, I don't see the OP mentioning anything about imbalance.
Magic Box being a fancy word? What? Magic Box is a term coined by Blizzard itself, it's not something that's been jazzed up at all, it's what it is. An invisible box that allows you to maintain unit formation.
If you're going to attempt to be able to put up an intellectual post read the OP first.
Exactly. The Starcraft community, which we must admit is made up of mostly young kids, are fond of 'jargon' and calling a spade some sort of unique special flowery name (e.g. what we called 'efficiency' or 'economy' is now placed under the nebulous umbrella term of 'macro' ). Now 'magic box' will be added to the pollution of language even though people have not only been doing this with mutalisks in the beta, they have been doing this in RTS games since over a decade ago.
Macro? Not following along with SCII too closely, but the word macro's been around forever. Efficiency? Never heard it used in BW. Magic box's have been around too, but I hope it's not used in casts because it's just pointless.
If anything the word kiting sort of pisses me off.
On August 22 2010 07:04 rockon1215 wrote: It's not really imba. It just means Thors can't be the only anti-air unit. Marines + turrets have to be there in large numbers. Tarson didn't have enough marines.
This. You use Thors because they have long enough range to cover a base or army where Marines could get danced around, preventing Mutas from getting free shots at anything. Then you back them up with plenty of Marines so the Mutas can't just overwhelm the Thors and rape everything.
Of course, this means you actually have to control your army and keep Marines alive against the threat of Infestors and Banelings instead of just slamming out pure Mech and winning.
It means pure mech is dead. It also means a lot of Thor based timing pushes don't work, and it means Terran overall is a lot more vulnerable. You HAVE to get some more anti air now, and that's a big deal. Marines are iffy at best, vikings aren't super cost effective, and ravens are so gas heavy they cut into everything else. It makes the matchup a lot more variable, and I like that a lot.
Me too.
I still think there's a problem in the early game, where Zerg is basically forced to Fast Expand without really being able to protect it against early aggression, much of which a Terran player can do with minimal commitment (Protoss has to at least delay their tech for a 2gate), but midgame and on is starting to look just fine for Zerg.
On August 22 2010 09:37 Macavity wrote: Talk about projectionism. The only tears that have been flowing have been Zerg players who have polluted message boards (including this one) about 'imbalance'. Citing Idra is an extremely poor example since Idra is famous for his 'tears' and 'rage'.
There is nothing new here. I played exclusively Zerg during the beta, and we knew not to clump up mutalisks when attacking thors. Thors are poor for anti-air purposes. As a Terran player now, I never build thors because they are slow and do not make good anti-air. Marines, ghosts, and vikings work much better.
On August 22 2010 06:37 Tropics wrote: why the fuck is everyone on the dick of this mutalisk "trick"
people have been doing this since early phase 2, jesus. it changes nothing. if you didnt know about it you don't even get to have an opinion on the balance of the matchup.
second, its not magic boxes. it's fucking moving your units.
Exactly. The Starcraft community, which we must admit is made up of mostly young kids, are fond of 'jargon' and calling a spade some sort of unique special flowery name (e.g. what we called 'efficiency' or 'economy' is now placed under the nebulous umbrella term of 'macro' ). Now 'magic box' will be added to the pollution of language even though people have not only been doing this with mutalisks in the beta, they have been doing this in RTS games since over a decade ago.
I'm by no means trying to derail this thread, but I just have to say this: Arrogant elitists like you (yeah! you have been around since BW came out! you must have a really big penis!) are in no way better than those people who are "polluting" forums with whinery.
Seriously. This thread shows that many many people haven't known about this an all you can do is piss all over the joy (even more so since the OP is clearly ironic and sarcastic, yet you open your post with "projectionism" [little jargon lover yourself eh?]). A simple "this doesn't really change anything, as many Zerg have done this during Phase 2 already" would have completely sufficed, yet you decide to go on a huge e-penis-showoff-ramble.
If anything the word kiting sort of pisses me off.
It's just fucking micro.
You know what word pisses me off?
Apple
I mean, its just fucking fruit.
Or...
Maybe specificity in language is a good thing. Micro refers to a whole lot of stuff, including but certainly not limited to kiting. If I strategically burrow and unburrow a roach, skillfully position my marines for a better concave, get a good surround with zerglings or mutas, cycle damaged units out of harm's way mid-fight to keep as many units alive as possible... All of those are micro, and none of them are kiting.
I really dont like the magic box glitch/technique. I think that the matchup is imbalanced, but i would seriously prefer it the answer was something other than this. I play random, and whenever i'm terran, and my zerg opponent goes mutas, it just kinda takes the fun out of the match. I either lose because i have a small vulnerability, or I win because the zerg invested 1200/1200 into harassment units that didn't serve their purpose. I would prefer that the zerg was given a way to beat terran in a ground war.
Also, i really didn't find this very funny. The original was funny, because the forum was flooded with topics about imbalance, and there truly was a rediculous amount of (not unwarranted) QQ. Also your later post was a complete ripoff of his.+ Show Spoiler +
If anything the word kiting sort of pisses me off.
It's just fucking micro.
You know what word pisses me off?
Apple
I mean, its just fucking fruit.
Or...
Maybe specificity in language is a good thing. Micro refers to a whole lot of stuff, including but certainly not limited to kiting. If I strategically burrow and unburrow a roach, skillfully position my marines for a better concave, get a good surround with zerglings or mutas, cycle damaged units out of harm's way mid-fight to keep as many units alive as possible... All of those are micro, and none of them are kiting.
Even though burrow/unburrow is technically "micro" as in micromanagement, "microing" implicitly carries the connotation of moving your units and attacking in a way to achieve maximum damage with them. "I'm microing my mutalisks", "I'm microing my zerglings", "I'm microing my banshees", "I'm microing my zealots", "I'm microing my stalkers", "I'm microing my probes", "I'm microing my hellions".
No one fucking says "I'm microing my banelings" when he really means "Hey I'm burrowing my banelings". When someone says microing his banelings, he means he's controlling and moving them to attack. No one says "I'm microing my zerglings" when he really means "Hey I'm making an arc on top of the ramp", he says "I'm making a goddamn arc on top of my ramp".
So yeah your comparison falls just a wee bit short as well.
If anything the word kiting sort of pisses me off.
It's just fucking micro.
You know what word pisses me off?
Apple
I mean, its just fucking fruit.
Or...
Maybe specificity in language is a good thing. Micro refers to a whole lot of stuff, including but certainly not limited to kiting. If I strategically burrow and unburrow a roach, skillfully position my marines for a better concave, get a good surround with zerglings or mutas, cycle damaged units out of harm's way mid-fight to keep as many units alive as possible... All of those are micro, and none of them are kiting.
Even though burrow/unburrow is technically "micro" as in micromanagement, "microing" implicitly carries the connotation of moving your units and attacking in a way to achieve maximum damage with them. "I'm microing my mutalisks", "I'm microing my zerglings", "I'm microing my banshees", "I'm microing my zealots", "I'm microing my stalkers", "I'm microing my probes", "I'm microing my hellions".
No one fucking says "I'm microing my banelings" when he really means "Hey I'm burrowing my banelings". When someone says microing his banelings, he means he's controlling and moving them to attack. No one says "I'm microing my zerglings" when he really means "Hey I'm making an arc on top of the ramp", he says "I'm making a goddamn arc on top of my ramp".
So yeah your comparison falls just a wee bit short as well.
Now I hate the unnecessary/redundant jargon as much as the next guy (1-1-1 build = factport, etc)
But here I don't agree with you so much. I even remember a match on gomtv where tasteless explicitly makes note of someones great "micro" because he was making a concave of hydralisks before a protoss force engaged them; so there's that.
What I'm saying is, a lot of things fall under the umbrella of "micromanagement" because a lot of things factor into your micro play. You can get a range advantage (putting your units with the higher range in the back), a situational advantage (backstab), a speed advantage, and such. All of that would be considered "micro", even if it makes just as much sense to say 'HURDURR I'M PUTTING MY TANKS BEHIND THE REST OF MY ARMY BECAUSE THEY CAN SIEGE"
Even though burrow/unburrow is technically "micro" as in micromanagement, "microing" implicitly carries the connotation of moving your units and attacking in a way to achieve maximum damage with them.
Except...kiting is not doing this. Kiting is moving your unit in such a way to keep it out of range of the enemy's ability to retaliate. It is a way to keep your units alive.
No one fucking says "I'm microing my banelings" when he really means "Hey I'm burrowing my banelings". When someone says microing his banelings, he means he's controlling and moving them to attack. No one says "I'm microing my zerglings" when he really means "Hey I'm making an arc on top of the ramp", he says "I'm making a goddamn arc on top of my ramp".
If I'm facing off with Roaches, and every time I'm about to bring one down my opponent skillfully burrows it too regenerate, while unburrowing another one to keep up the attack, I would *absolutely* say that he microed those roaches.
If anything the word kiting sort of pisses me off.
It's just fucking micro.
You know what word pisses me off?
Apple
I mean, its just fucking fruit.
Or...
Maybe specificity in language is a good thing. Micro refers to a whole lot of stuff, including but certainly not limited to kiting. If I strategically burrow and unburrow a roach, skillfully position my marines for a better concave, get a good surround with zerglings or mutas, cycle damaged units out of harm's way mid-fight to keep as many units alive as possible... All of those are micro, and none of them are kiting.
Even though burrow/unburrow is technically "micro" as in micromanagement, "microing" implicitly carries the connotation of moving your units and attacking in a way to achieve maximum damage with them. "I'm microing my mutalisks", "I'm microing my zerglings", "I'm microing my banshees", "I'm microing my zealots", "I'm microing my stalkers", "I'm microing my probes", "I'm microing my hellions".
No one fucking says "I'm microing my banelings" when he really means "Hey I'm burrowing my banelings". When someone says microing his banelings, he means he's controlling and moving them to attack. No one says "I'm microing my zerglings" when he really means "Hey I'm making an arc on top of the ramp", he says "I'm making a goddamn arc on top of my ramp".
So yeah your comparison falls just a wee bit short as well.
Now I hate the unnecessary/redundant jargon as much as the next guy (1-1-1 build = factport, etc)
But here I don't agree with you so much. I even remember a match on gomtv where tasteless explicitly makes note of someones great "micro" because he was making a concave of hydralisks before a protoss force engaged them; so there's that.
What I'm saying is, a lot of things fall under the umbrella of "micromanagement" because a lot of things factor into your micro play. You can get a range advantage (putting your units with the higher range in the back), a situational advantage (backstab), a speed advantage, and such. All of that would be considered "micro", even if it makes just as much sense to say 'HURDURR I'M PUTTING MY TANKS BEHIND THE REST OF MY ARMY BECAUSE THEY CAN SIEGE"
My entire point was that "microing" carries a connotation of controlling the movement of your units and attacking in order to deal the most damage against the other's troops; backstab is not microing - it's a strategy/tactic (whatever the correct term). Controlling those zerglings during the backstab? Sure that's micro, the act of backstab itself is not. Putting units in the back? That's "moving your shit to correct place and attacking" - hence microing.
Even though burrow/unburrow is technically "micro" as in micromanagement, "microing" implicitly carries the connotation of moving your units and attacking in a way to achieve maximum damage with them.
Except...kiting is not doing this. Kiting is moving your unit in such a way to keep it out of range of the enemy's ability to retaliate. It is a way to keep your units alive.
What? That's exactly my point. You're moving your shit away so it doesn't get hit, and then attacking them once you're out of range, and then moving again, etc. Moving your units and then attacking; getting maximum use out of your stuff.
No one fucking says "I'm microing my banelings" when he really means "Hey I'm burrowing my banelings". When someone says microing his banelings, he means he's controlling and moving them to attack. No one says "I'm microing my zerglings" when he really means "Hey I'm making an arc on top of the ramp", he says "I'm making a goddamn arc on top of my ramp".
If I'm facing off with Roaches, and every time I'm about to bring one down my opponent skillfully burrows it too regenerate, while unburrowing another one to keep up the attack, I would *absolutely* say that he microed those roaches.
Okay okay, you get this point - microing does refer to burrow when you're talking about roaches/lurkers - using actual abilities of course is micro. Kiting is however, some made up name for something you do with every ranged unit.
Anyways, we can argue this all we want; it doesn't really change anything as I doubt I'll be able to change so many people's minds now that the word's been ingrained into SCII. I don't really want to derail this thread either (not that I really think it's going anywhere other than into flaming).
On August 22 2010 09:37 Macavity wrote: Talk about projectionism. The only tears that have been flowing have been Zerg players who have polluted message boards (including this one) about 'imbalance'. Citing Idra is an extremely poor example since Idra is famous for his 'tears' and 'rage'.
There is nothing new here. I played exclusively Zerg during the beta, and we knew not to clump up mutalisks when attacking thors. Thors are poor for anti-air purposes. As a Terran player now, I never build thors because they are slow and do not make good anti-air. Marines, ghosts, and vikings work much better.
On August 22 2010 06:37 Tropics wrote: why the fuck is everyone on the dick of this mutalisk "trick"
people have been doing this since early phase 2, jesus. it changes nothing. if you didnt know about it you don't even get to have an opinion on the balance of the matchup.
second, its not magic boxes. it's fucking moving your units.
Exactly. The Starcraft community, which we must admit is made up of mostly young kids, are fond of 'jargon' and calling a spade some sort of unique special flowery name (e.g. what we called 'efficiency' or 'economy' is now placed under the nebulous umbrella term of 'macro' ). Now 'magic box' will be added to the pollution of language even though people have not only been doing this with mutalisks in the beta, they have been doing this in RTS games since over a decade ago.
- Theres a difference between splitting up your Mutas after the attack and keeping formation. People who say that everyone's been doing this since beta didn't play beta apparently.
- Vikings are awful against Mutas. Thor is actually the best answer. It's well accepted (until this magic box business surfaced) that Hellion/Maurader/Thor was the trifecta unstoppable force against Zerg. Guess which piece of that triangle was the anti-air.
- Your rage about lexicon is unfounded and ridiculous. Are you seriously complaining about the word macro? Who ever used the term efficiency? And economy is actually still used quite a bit, as it's separate from the other side of macro, which is production (oh god another jargon word.)
- Finally, why do you put single quotes around the word 'jargon?' For someone pretentious enough to try and look like a preserver of the English language, at least use punctuation correctly and not randomly. Oh and the magic box term was used in Brood War, now that we're talking about things that are a decade old. Except it was utilized in the opposite fashion, which makes your entire post a deluge of misinformation and senseless nerd rage.
On August 22 2010 09:19 Bair wrote:Oh hey, the "IdrA beats terran so zerg must be fine" argument again. The issue has not primarily been with mid/late game. It is the early game that makes ZvT so difficult. IdrA (among others) admits this. Even Terrans are starting to think the MU is OP, see Morrow's interview. This muta micro is something that has been known since beta...
I have only encountered two Zerg stratagies in all my time playing:
1) Fast expansion 2) Baneling all in, usually followed by "Terran Overpowered" when I defend it
Why don't some Zerg try more one base play, build roaches to block Reapers. There are more than two ways to try and win the game. Why not get mutas, harrass and expand at same time? Zerg are not trying different things out. It seems like they are playing Brood War while the other races are playing SC2.
On August 22 2010 09:19 Bair wrote:Oh hey, the "IdrA beats terran so zerg must be fine" argument again. The issue has not primarily been with mid/late game. It is the early game that makes ZvT so difficult. IdrA (among others) admits this. Even Terrans are starting to think the MU is OP, see Morrow's interview. This muta micro is something that has been known since beta...
I have only encountered two Zerg stratagies in all my time playing:
1) Fast expansion 2) Baneling all in, usually followed by "Terran Overpowered" when I defend it
Why don't some Zerg try more one base play, build roaches to block Reapers. There are more than two ways to try and win the game. Why not get mutas, harrass and expand at same time? Zerg are not trying different things out. It seems like they are playing Brood War while the other races are playing SC2.
I'm sure Zerg just naturally attracts all the uncreative people. It's not simply that every time Zerg has tried to be creative with their, like, three units, that Blizzard nerfs it or anything. Not at all.
As far as I can see, one base plays just aren't good. A Terran's units are just a lot more cost effective than yours, you just need that superior economy to have a fighting chance. For instance, if you're busy harassing with one base muta and expanding, the terran can just sac or turret up his main, push out with bio and win. It's that simple, you can't even get banelings up to deal with it because you've spent your piddly amount of one-base gas on Mutas, you can't even just throw Zerglings or roaches at the problem because your spending that money on expanding. One base roach plays only work against really fragile Terran FE builds, and even then, they're far from impossible to hold off with the Terran wall-off mechanic.
Roaches are already made to defend against any significant number of reapers, by the way. I fail to see how that's in any way a creative play.
on serious note, i never took the QQs as real for this reason, i genuinely feel that zerg players are probably the least creative, its extremely rare to find any atempt at anything new in like 200 games i played so far.
Well to be fair, Zerg used to be just as creative as the other two races but each time they got crazy it got nerfed pretty bad.
Zerg used to use Nydus to surprise enemies so Blizzard made the build time 20 seconds and now it is not viable unless your opponent is a fucking idiot. (Beta patch 5)
Zerg used to research burrow and regeneration for Roaches. This got hit VERY hard. (Beta patches 6, 7, 8, 9 and 12)
Zerg players used to bring queens and a drone to make tumors and spine crawlers outside of a turtling player's base just like a Terran makes a bunker. Terrans get to salvage the bunker for 100% of the minerals, Zerg gets nerfed. (Beta patch 9 and 11)
Zerg players used to bring Corruptors to shut down Planetary Fortresses, Missile Turrets and Photon Cannons but this was quickly changed (Beta patch 11)
Overlord speed upgrade changed from 50/50 to 100/100 (Beta patch 14)
Zerg players used to have just as many cool little tricks but because the other races would complain they got taken down quite a few notches.
It isnt that Zerg is bad, they just dont have anything fun to do like the other races and not everyone wants to play Terran.
This idea almost just goes against everything we've known and loved about mutas. Muta stacking was key to success in BW, now the magic boss where no mutas stack is the key to success against thors. The irony tastes delicious.
There's a reason Blizzard hasn't "balanced" this yet. Their stats are showing the matchups to be even, and hell, even in the top tournaments we usually don't even see a Terran in the mix.
On August 22 2010 10:51 SC2Phoenix wrote: I have no Idea why people are throwing flames around. It will sovle nothing and zergs will still complain that terran have retardly strong openings.
This. Except that now maybe we'll also have some terran whining about mutalisks
On August 22 2010 17:05 Sully907 wrote: There's a reason Blizzard hasn't "balanced" this yet. Their stats are showing the matchups to be even, and hell, even in the top tournaments we usually don't even see a Terran in the mix.
You must have missed like 99% of the tournaments since retail hit the stores, Terran has been dominating (most of the time 2+ terrans in the semifinals, many times 3-4)
Ladder stats are next to useless when considering balance.. the real game is played in tournaments and terran is still dominating them, only two zerg players have faired some what well in tournaments, idra and dimaga. and they are lightyears ahead of some terran players who have done much better..wont name anyone specific =o
Also it was like 5 thors, 1500 minerals 1000 gas Against, couldnt queite see but after the fight he had 26 muttalisks in one ctrlgroup left, so 26+ muttalisks (im guessing closer to 30), atleast 2600 minerals 2600 gas.
and people call this a fancy trick etc... holy crap nothing has changed, this "magic box" "trick" is no trick is, as far as I can see its just avoiding the small splash area of the thors by holdpos/move+stop command , especially helps when all the thors are holding hands next to each other.. there was no chance for tarson in that fight unless idra clicked with all his muttas in one spot next to the thors and didnt micro any further.
On August 22 2010 04:58 MoNoNauT wrote: I wish I had saved more of this dialogue, or even the replay, but I was too drunk on victory beer. This guy had been bragging all night about how awesome his ZvT was during our KOTH, and this was the night that the thread that started all this mess was posted. Over the course of the 35-40 minute game, he made a total of 8 marines and then nothing but thors, hellions, and tanks. After I murderized his thors, he just made more thors. I think I killed a total of 15 thors that game, with nothing but mutas.
You zerg people need some innovative play instead of just complaining about the imbalance. Zerg is indeed harder to play which makes them less attractive for some people. But the imbalance is.. maybe just slighty at the start but not magnificent as some(MOST) make it out to be. The speed and mapcontrol of the zerg can be insane.
( Totally no 'hate' vs you MoNoNauT )
When did MoNoNauT complain? All he's discussing is that he was able to win using Magic Box and Mutalisks.
More tears please, they go good with Timbits :D
That's why I made the little disclaimer at the bottom I was just using his post to show that zergs can indeed rape terrans sometimes if handled/played the right way. I'm mainly P btw, but played alot of random aswell.
On August 22 2010 17:05 Sully907 wrote: There's a reason Blizzard hasn't "balanced" this yet. Their stats are showing the matchups to be even, and hell, even in the top tournaments we usually don't even see a Terran in the mix.
You must have missed like 99% of the tournaments since retail hit the stores, Terran has been dominating (most of the time 2+ terrans in the semifinals, many times 3-4)
Ladder stats are next to useless when considering balance.. the real game is played in tournaments and terran is still dominating them, only two zerg players have faired some what well in tournaments, idra and dimaga. and they are lightyears ahead of some terran players who have done much better..wont name anyone specific =o
Also it was like 5 thors, 1500 minerals 1000 gas Against, couldnt queite see but after the fight he had 26 muttalisks in one ctrlgroup left, so 26+ muttalisks (im guessing closer to 30), atleast 2600 minerals 2600 gas.
and people call this a fancy trick etc... holy crap nothing has changed, this "magic box" "trick" is no trick is, as far as I can see its just avoiding the small splash area of the thors by holdpos/move+stop command , especially helps when all the thors are holding hands next to each other.. there was no chance for tarson in that fight unless idra clicked with all his muttas in one spot next to the thors and didnt micro any further.
Yes because zerg units cost for cost has to be equal to terran and protoss.
Nevermind the fact that they alway have 50-100% better income.
On August 22 2010 17:05 Sully907 wrote: There's a reason Blizzard hasn't "balanced" this yet. Their stats are showing the matchups to be even, and hell, even in the top tournaments we usually don't even see a Terran in the mix.
You must have missed like 99% of the tournaments since retail hit the stores, Terran has been dominating (most of the time 2+ terrans in the semifinals, many times 3-4)
Ladder stats are next to useless when considering balance.. the real game is played in tournaments and terran is still dominating them, only two zerg players have faired some what well in tournaments, idra and dimaga. and they are lightyears ahead of some terran players who have done much better..wont name anyone specific =o
Also it was like 5 thors, 1500 minerals 1000 gas Against, couldnt queite see but after the fight he had 26 muttalisks in one ctrlgroup left, so 26+ muttalisks (im guessing closer to 30), atleast 2600 minerals 2600 gas.
and people call this a fancy trick etc... holy crap nothing has changed, this "magic box" "trick" is no trick is, as far as I can see its just avoiding the small splash area of the thors by holdpos/move+stop command , especially helps when all the thors are holding hands next to each other.. there was no chance for tarson in that fight unless idra clicked with all his muttas in one spot next to the thors and didnt micro any further.
Yes because zerg units cost for cost has to be equal to terran and protoss.
Nevermind the fact that they alway have 50-100% better income.
so twice the cost and better micro shouldnt allow for a win? what do you want from Zerg players? for them to have 9 hands and 9000 apm to be able to win ? tarson got outplayed pure and simple..
On August 22 2010 17:05 Sully907 wrote: There's a reason Blizzard hasn't "balanced" this yet. Their stats are showing the matchups to be even, and hell, even in the top tournaments we usually don't even see a Terran in the mix.
You must have missed like 99% of the tournaments since retail hit the stores, Terran has been dominating (most of the time 2+ terrans in the semifinals, many times 3-4)
Ladder stats are next to useless when considering balance.. the real game is played in tournaments and terran is still dominating them, only two zerg players have faired some what well in tournaments, idra and dimaga. and they are lightyears ahead of some terran players who have done much better..wont name anyone specific =o
Also it was like 5 thors, 1500 minerals 1000 gas Against, couldnt queite see but after the fight he had 26 muttalisks in one ctrlgroup left, so 26+ muttalisks (im guessing closer to 30), atleast 2600 minerals 2600 gas.
and people call this a fancy trick etc... holy crap nothing has changed, this "magic box" "trick" is no trick is, as far as I can see its just avoiding the small splash area of the thors by holdpos/move+stop command , especially helps when all the thors are holding hands next to each other.. there was no chance for tarson in that fight unless idra clicked with all his muttas in one spot next to the thors and didnt micro any further.
Yes because zerg units cost for cost has to be equal to terran and protoss.
Nevermind the fact that they alway have 50-100% better income.
on topic: i hate how people are acting like this is some magical solution...Mutas were always good its those damn reaper/helions that are a problem
btw what people said about zergs not being creative is definitely true on the ladder, but most Terran and Protoss are just as uncreative it just hurts them less.
disclaimer: i main random. edit: oh and as such i actually hear zerg OP almost as much as terran OP. it makes me laugh
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.virginmedia.com/images/bottled-water-g.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4509/magicbox11.jpg)
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That poor guy didn't seem to happy.
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![[image loading]](http://www.nataliedee.com/072208/hes-gonna-make-it-rain-for-days.jpg)
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