|
Talk about projectionism. The only tears that have been flowing have been Zerg players who have polluted message boards (including this one) about 'imbalance'. Citing Idra is an extremely poor example since Idra is famous for his 'tears' and 'rage'.
There is nothing new here. I played exclusively Zerg during the beta, and we knew not to clump up mutalisks when attacking thors. Thors are poor for anti-air purposes. As a Terran player now, I never build thors because they are slow and do not make good anti-air. Marines, ghosts, and vikings work much better.
On August 22 2010 06:37 Tropics wrote:
why the fuck is everyone on the dick of this mutalisk "trick"
people have been doing this since early phase 2, jesus. it changes nothing. if you didnt know about it you don't even get to have an opinion on the balance of the matchup.
second, its not magic boxes. it's fucking moving your units.
Exactly. The Starcraft community, which we must admit is made up of mostly young kids, are fond of 'jargon' and calling a spade some sort of unique special flowery name (e.g. what we called 'efficiency' or 'economy' is now placed under the nebulous umbrella term of 'macro' ). Now 'magic box' will be added to the pollution of language even though people have not only been doing this with mutalisks in the beta, they have been doing this in RTS games since over a decade ago.
|
I wish people would take the hint that this sort of stirring shit up just isn't welcome. >:[
|
On August 22 2010 08:53 RaZzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 04:58 MoNoNauT wrote:I wish I had saved more of this dialogue, or even the replay, but I was too drunk on victory beer. This guy had been bragging all night about how awesome his ZvT was during our KOTH, and this was the night that the thread that started all this mess was posted. Over the course of the 35-40 minute game, he made a total of 8 marines and then nothing but thors, hellions, and tanks. After I murderized his thors, he just made more thors. I think I killed a total of 15 thors that game, with nothing but mutas.![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/juPan.png) You zerg people need some innovative play instead of just complaining about the imbalance. Zerg is indeed harder to play which makes them less attractive for some people. But the imbalance is.. maybe just slighty at the start but not magnificent as some(MOST) make it out to be. The speed and mapcontrol of the zerg can be insane. ( Totally no 'hate' vs you MoNoNauT )
When did MoNoNauT complain? All he's discussing is that he was able to win using Magic Box and Mutalisks.
More tears please, they go good with Timbits :D
|
Whether or not people do something doesn't matter. Believe it or not, but most pros don't read Team Liquid. So when a pro like IdrA does it, it shows that it's actually strong. And this is a big deal due to it shutting down mech. It'd be like having a zerg build that completely shut down templar or something. It's incredibly limiting to the Terran. Of course this is all theory crafting, but I can think of numerous games off the top of my head that won't work with good muta micro.
|
On August 22 2010 09:37 Macavity wrote:Talk about projectionism. The only tears that have been flowing have been Zerg players who have polluted message boards (including this one) about 'imbalance'. Citing Idra is an extremely poor example since Idra is famous for his 'tears' and 'rage'. There is nothing new here. I played exclusively Zerg during the beta, and we knew not to clump up mutalisks when attacking thors. Thors are poor for anti-air purposes. As a Terran player now, I never build thors because they are slow and do not make good anti-air. Marines, ghosts, and vikings work much better. Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 06:37 Tropics wrote:
why the fuck is everyone on the dick of this mutalisk "trick"
people have been doing this since early phase 2, jesus. it changes nothing. if you didnt know about it you don't even get to have an opinion on the balance of the matchup.
second, its not magic boxes. it's fucking moving your units. Exactly. The Starcraft community, which we must admit is made up of mostly young kids, are fond of 'jargon' and calling a spade some sort of unique special flowery name (e.g. what we called 'efficiency' or 'economy' is now placed under the nebulous umbrella term of 'macro' ). Now 'magic box' will be added to the pollution of language even though people have not only been doing this with mutalisks in the beta, they have been doing this in RTS games since over a decade ago.
Lol.
I don't understand why you're so mad sir, I don't see the OP mentioning anything about
imbalance.
Magic Box being a fancy word? What? Magic Box is a term coined by Blizzard itself, it's not something that's been jazzed up at all, it's what it is. An invisible box that allows you to maintain unit formation.
If you're going to attempt to be able to put up an intellectual post read the OP first.
|
Exactly. The Starcraft community, which we must admit is made up of mostly young kids, are fond of 'jargon' and calling a spade some sort of unique special flowery name (e.g. what we called 'efficiency' or 'economy' is now placed under the nebulous umbrella term of 'macro' ). Now 'magic box' will be added to the pollution of language even though people have not only been doing this with mutalisks in the beta, they have been doing this in RTS games since over a decade ago.
Macro? Not following along with SCII too closely, but the word macro's been around forever. Efficiency? Never heard it used in BW. Magic box's have been around too, but I hope it's not used in casts because it's just pointless.
If anything the word kiting sort of pisses me off.
It's just fucking micro.
|
On August 22 2010 09:03 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 08:57 Voyager I wrote:On August 22 2010 07:04 rockon1215 wrote:
It's not really imba. It just means Thors can't be the only anti-air unit. Marines + turrets have to be there in large numbers. Tarson didn't have enough marines. This. You use Thors because they have long enough range to cover a base or army where Marines could get danced around, preventing Mutas from getting free shots at anything. Then you back them up with plenty of Marines so the Mutas can't just overwhelm the Thors and rape everything. Of course, this means you actually have to control your army and keep Marines alive against the threat of Infestors and Banelings instead of just slamming out pure Mech and winning. It means pure mech is dead. It also means a lot of Thor based timing pushes don't work, and it means Terran overall is a lot more vulnerable. You HAVE to get some more anti air now, and that's a big deal. Marines are iffy at best, vikings aren't super cost effective, and ravens are so gas heavy they cut into everything else. It makes the matchup a lot more variable, and I like that a lot.
Me too.
I still think there's a problem in the early game, where Zerg is basically forced to Fast Expand without really being able to protect it against early aggression, much of which a Terran player can do with minimal commitment (Protoss has to at least delay their tech for a 2gate), but midgame and on is starting to look just fine for Zerg.
|
Kiting is a specific form of micro, I don't see any problems in using it.
|
On August 22 2010 09:37 Macavity wrote:Talk about projectionism. The only tears that have been flowing have been Zerg players who have polluted message boards (including this one) about 'imbalance'. Citing Idra is an extremely poor example since Idra is famous for his 'tears' and 'rage'. There is nothing new here. I played exclusively Zerg during the beta, and we knew not to clump up mutalisks when attacking thors. Thors are poor for anti-air purposes. As a Terran player now, I never build thors because they are slow and do not make good anti-air. Marines, ghosts, and vikings work much better. Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 06:37 Tropics wrote:
why the fuck is everyone on the dick of this mutalisk "trick"
people have been doing this since early phase 2, jesus. it changes nothing. if you didnt know about it you don't even get to have an opinion on the balance of the matchup.
second, its not magic boxes. it's fucking moving your units. Exactly. The Starcraft community, which we must admit is made up of mostly young kids, are fond of 'jargon' and calling a spade some sort of unique special flowery name (e.g. what we called 'efficiency' or 'economy' is now placed under the nebulous umbrella term of 'macro' ). Now 'magic box' will be added to the pollution of language even though people have not only been doing this with mutalisks in the beta, they have been doing this in RTS games since over a decade ago.
I'm by no means trying to derail this thread, but I just have to say this: Arrogant elitists like you (yeah! you have been around since BW came out! you must have a really big penis!) are in no way better than those people who are "polluting" forums with whinery.
Seriously. This thread shows that many many people haven't known about this an all you can do is piss all over the joy (even more so since the OP is clearly ironic and sarcastic, yet you open your post with "projectionism" [little jargon lover yourself eh?]). A simple "this doesn't really change anything, as many Zerg have done this during Phase 2 already" would have completely sufficed, yet you decide to go on a huge e-penis-showoff-ramble.
|
If anything the word kiting sort of pisses me off.
It's just fucking micro.
You know what word pisses me off?
Apple
I mean, its just fucking fruit.
Or...
Maybe specificity in language is a good thing. Micro refers to a whole lot of stuff, including but certainly not limited to kiting. If I strategically burrow and unburrow a roach, skillfully position my marines for a better concave, get a good surround with zerglings or mutas, cycle damaged units out of harm's way mid-fight to keep as many units alive as possible... All of those are micro, and none of them are kiting.
|
I really dont like the magic box glitch/technique. I think that the matchup is imbalanced, but i would seriously prefer it the answer was something other than this. I play random, and whenever i'm terran, and my zerg opponent goes mutas, it just kinda takes the fun out of the match. I either lose because i have a small vulnerability, or I win because the zerg invested 1200/1200 into harassment units that didn't serve their purpose. I would prefer that the zerg was given a way to beat terran in a ground war.
Also, i really didn't find this very funny. The original was funny, because the forum was flooded with topics about imbalance, and there truly was a rediculous amount of (not unwarranted) QQ. Also your later post was a complete ripoff of his.+ Show Spoiler +
|
On August 22 2010 10:01 awesomoecalypse wrote:You know what word pisses me off? AppleI mean, its just fucking fruit. Or... Maybe specificity in language is a good thing. Micro refers to a whole lot of stuff, including but certainly not limited to kiting. If I strategically burrow and unburrow a roach, skillfully position my marines for a better concave, get a good surround with zerglings or mutas, cycle damaged units out of harm's way mid-fight to keep as many units alive as possible... All of those are micro, and none of them are kiting.
Even though burrow/unburrow is technically "micro" as in micromanagement, "microing" implicitly carries the connotation of moving your units and attacking in a way to achieve maximum damage with them. "I'm microing my mutalisks", "I'm microing my zerglings", "I'm microing my banshees", "I'm microing my zealots", "I'm microing my stalkers", "I'm microing my probes", "I'm microing my hellions".
No one fucking says "I'm microing my banelings" when he really means "Hey I'm burrowing my banelings". When someone says microing his banelings, he means he's controlling and moving them to attack. No one says "I'm microing my zerglings" when he really means "Hey I'm making an arc on top of the ramp", he says "I'm making a goddamn arc on top of my ramp".
So yeah your comparison falls just a wee bit short as well.
|
People seem to think that just because mutas can beat thors now the tides will turn in this matchup.
|
On August 22 2010 10:20 King K. Rool wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 10:01 awesomoecalypse wrote:If anything the word kiting sort of pisses me off.
It's just fucking micro. You know what word pisses me off? AppleI mean, its just fucking fruit. Or... Maybe specificity in language is a good thing. Micro refers to a whole lot of stuff, including but certainly not limited to kiting. If I strategically burrow and unburrow a roach, skillfully position my marines for a better concave, get a good surround with zerglings or mutas, cycle damaged units out of harm's way mid-fight to keep as many units alive as possible... All of those are micro, and none of them are kiting. Even though burrow/unburrow is technically "micro" as in micromanagement, "microing" implicitly carries the connotation of moving your units and attacking in a way to achieve maximum damage with them. "I'm microing my mutalisks", "I'm microing my zerglings", "I'm microing my banshees", "I'm microing my zealots", "I'm microing my stalkers", "I'm microing my probes", "I'm microing my hellions". No one fucking says "I'm microing my banelings" when he really means "Hey I'm burrowing my banelings". When someone says microing his banelings, he means he's controlling and moving them to attack. No one says "I'm microing my zerglings" when he really means "Hey I'm making an arc on top of the ramp", he says "I'm making a goddamn arc on top of my ramp". So yeah your comparison falls just a wee bit short as well.
Now I hate the unnecessary/redundant jargon as much as the next guy (1-1-1 build = factport, etc)
But here I don't agree with you so much. I even remember a match on gomtv where tasteless explicitly makes note of someones great "micro" because he was making a concave of hydralisks before a protoss force engaged them; so there's that.
What I'm saying is, a lot of things fall under the umbrella of "micromanagement" because a lot of things factor into your micro play. You can get a range advantage (putting your units with the higher range in the back), a situational advantage (backstab), a speed advantage, and such. All of that would be considered "micro", even if it makes just as much sense to say 'HURDURR I'M PUTTING MY TANKS BEHIND THE REST OF MY ARMY BECAUSE THEY CAN SIEGE"
|
Even though burrow/unburrow is technically "micro" as in micromanagement, "microing" implicitly carries the connotation of moving your units and attacking in a way to achieve maximum damage with them.
Except...kiting is not doing this. Kiting is moving your unit in such a way to keep it out of range of the enemy's ability to retaliate. It is a way to keep your units alive.
No one fucking says "I'm microing my banelings" when he really means "Hey I'm burrowing my banelings". When someone says microing his banelings, he means he's controlling and moving them to attack. No one says "I'm microing my zerglings" when he really means "Hey I'm making an arc on top of the ramp", he says "I'm making a goddamn arc on top of my ramp".
If I'm facing off with Roaches, and every time I'm about to bring one down my opponent skillfully burrows it too regenerate, while unburrowing another one to keep up the attack, I would *absolutely* say that he microed those roaches.
|
I have no Idea why people are throwing flames around. It will sovle nothing and zergs will still complain that terran have retardly strong openings.
|
On August 22 2010 10:39 SlowBlink wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 10:20 King K. Rool wrote:On August 22 2010 10:01 awesomoecalypse wrote:If anything the word kiting sort of pisses me off.
It's just fucking micro. You know what word pisses me off? AppleI mean, its just fucking fruit. Or... Maybe specificity in language is a good thing. Micro refers to a whole lot of stuff, including but certainly not limited to kiting. If I strategically burrow and unburrow a roach, skillfully position my marines for a better concave, get a good surround with zerglings or mutas, cycle damaged units out of harm's way mid-fight to keep as many units alive as possible... All of those are micro, and none of them are kiting. Even though burrow/unburrow is technically "micro" as in micromanagement, "microing" implicitly carries the connotation of moving your units and attacking in a way to achieve maximum damage with them. "I'm microing my mutalisks", "I'm microing my zerglings", "I'm microing my banshees", "I'm microing my zealots", "I'm microing my stalkers", "I'm microing my probes", "I'm microing my hellions". No one fucking says "I'm microing my banelings" when he really means "Hey I'm burrowing my banelings". When someone says microing his banelings, he means he's controlling and moving them to attack. No one says "I'm microing my zerglings" when he really means "Hey I'm making an arc on top of the ramp", he says "I'm making a goddamn arc on top of my ramp". So yeah your comparison falls just a wee bit short as well. Now I hate the unnecessary/redundant jargon as much as the next guy (1-1-1 build = factport, etc) But here I don't agree with you so much. I even remember a match on gomtv where tasteless explicitly makes note of someones great "micro" because he was making a concave of hydralisks before a protoss force engaged them; so there's that. What I'm saying is, a lot of things fall under the umbrella of "micromanagement" because a lot of things factor into your micro play. You can get a range advantage (putting your units with the higher range in the back), a situational advantage (backstab), a speed advantage, and such. All of that would be considered "micro", even if it makes just as much sense to say 'HURDURR I'M PUTTING MY TANKS BEHIND THE REST OF MY ARMY BECAUSE THEY CAN SIEGE" My entire point was that "microing" carries a connotation of controlling the movement of your units and attacking in order to deal the most damage against the other's troops; backstab is not microing - it's a strategy/tactic (whatever the correct term). Controlling those zerglings during the backstab? Sure that's micro, the act of backstab itself is not. Putting units in the back? That's "moving your shit to correct place and attacking" - hence microing.
On August 22 2010 10:43 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +
Even though burrow/unburrow is technically "micro" as in micromanagement, "microing" implicitly carries the connotation of moving your units and attacking in a way to achieve maximum damage with them.
Except...kiting is not doing this. Kiting is moving your unit in such a way to keep it out of range of the enemy's ability to retaliate. It is a way to keep your units alive. What? That's exactly my point. You're moving your shit away so it doesn't get hit, and then attacking them once you're out of range, and then moving again, etc. Moving your units and then attacking; getting maximum use out of your stuff.
Show nested quote +No one fucking says "I'm microing my banelings" when he really means "Hey I'm burrowing my banelings". When someone says microing his banelings, he means he's controlling and moving them to attack. No one says "I'm microing my zerglings" when he really means "Hey I'm making an arc on top of the ramp", he says "I'm making a goddamn arc on top of my ramp". If I'm facing off with Roaches, and every time I'm about to bring one down my opponent skillfully burrows it too regenerate, while unburrowing another one to keep up the attack, I would *absolutely* say that he microed those roaches.
Anyways, we can argue this all we want; it doesn't really change anything as I doubt I'll be able to change so many people's minds now that the word's been ingrained into SCII. I don't really want to derail this thread either (not that I really think it's going anywhere other than into flaming).
+ Show Spoiler +Also why need it now when we never used it in BW 
+ Show Spoiler +Also I feel like I'm not going to win this argument if it keeps going haha
|
On August 22 2010 09:37 Macavity wrote:Talk about projectionism. The only tears that have been flowing have been Zerg players who have polluted message boards (including this one) about 'imbalance'. Citing Idra is an extremely poor example since Idra is famous for his 'tears' and 'rage'. There is nothing new here. I played exclusively Zerg during the beta, and we knew not to clump up mutalisks when attacking thors. Thors are poor for anti-air purposes. As a Terran player now, I never build thors because they are slow and do not make good anti-air. Marines, ghosts, and vikings work much better. Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 06:37 Tropics wrote:
why the fuck is everyone on the dick of this mutalisk "trick"
people have been doing this since early phase 2, jesus. it changes nothing. if you didnt know about it you don't even get to have an opinion on the balance of the matchup.
second, its not magic boxes. it's fucking moving your units. Exactly. The Starcraft community, which we must admit is made up of mostly young kids, are fond of 'jargon' and calling a spade some sort of unique special flowery name (e.g. what we called 'efficiency' or 'economy' is now placed under the nebulous umbrella term of 'macro' ). Now 'magic box' will be added to the pollution of language even though people have not only been doing this with mutalisks in the beta, they have been doing this in RTS games since over a decade ago.
- Theres a difference between splitting up your Mutas after the attack and keeping formation. People who say that everyone's been doing this since beta didn't play beta apparently.
- Vikings are awful against Mutas. Thor is actually the best answer. It's well accepted (until this magic box business surfaced) that Hellion/Maurader/Thor was the trifecta unstoppable force against Zerg. Guess which piece of that triangle was the anti-air.
- Your rage about lexicon is unfounded and ridiculous. Are you seriously complaining about the word macro? Who ever used the term efficiency? And economy is actually still used quite a bit, as it's separate from the other side of macro, which is production (oh god another jargon word.)
- Finally, why do you put single quotes around the word 'jargon?' For someone pretentious enough to try and look like a preserver of the English language, at least use punctuation correctly and not randomly. Oh and the magic box term was used in Brood War, now that we're talking about things that are a decade old. Except it was utilized in the opposite fashion, which makes your entire post a deluge of misinformation and senseless nerd rage.
|
This might be my favorite thread, ever.
Thank you TLOBrian, even though your account is currently locked.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/BHOHq.jpg)
