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On August 22 2010 09:19 Bair wrote:Oh hey, the "IdrA beats terran so zerg must be fine" argument again. The issue has not primarily been with mid/late game. It is the early game that makes ZvT so difficult. IdrA (among others) admits this. Even Terrans are starting to think the MU is OP, see Morrow's interview. This muta micro is something that has been known since beta...
I have only encountered two Zerg stratagies in all my time playing:
1) Fast expansion
2) Baneling all in, usually followed by "Terran Overpowered" when I defend it
Why don't some Zerg try more one base play, build roaches to block Reapers. There are more than two ways to try and win the game. Why not get mutas, harrass and expand at same time? Zerg are not trying different things out. It seems like they are playing Brood War while the other races are playing SC2.
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On August 22 2010 12:47 BondGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 09:19 Bair wrote:Oh hey, the "IdrA beats terran so zerg must be fine" argument again. The issue has not primarily been with mid/late game. It is the early game that makes ZvT so difficult. IdrA (among others) admits this. Even Terrans are starting to think the MU is OP, see Morrow's interview. This muta micro is something that has been known since beta...
I have only encountered two Zerg stratagies in all my time playing: 1) Fast expansion 2) Baneling all in, usually followed by "Terran Overpowered" when I defend it Why don't some Zerg try more one base play, build roaches to block Reapers. There are more than two ways to try and win the game. Why not get mutas, harrass and expand at same time? Zerg are not trying different things out. It seems like they are playing Brood War while the other races are playing SC2.
I'm sure Zerg just naturally attracts all the uncreative people. It's not simply that every time Zerg has tried to be creative with their, like, three units, that Blizzard nerfs it or anything. Not at all.
As far as I can see, one base plays just aren't good. A Terran's units are just a lot more cost effective than yours, you just need that superior economy to have a fighting chance. For instance, if you're busy harassing with one base muta and expanding, the terran can just sac or turret up his main, push out with bio and win. It's that simple, you can't even get banelings up to deal with it because you've spent your piddly amount of one-base gas on Mutas, you can't even just throw Zerglings or roaches at the problem because your spending that money on expanding. One base roach plays only work against really fragile Terran FE builds, and even then, they're far from impossible to hold off with the Terran wall-off mechanic.
Roaches are already made to defend against any significant number of reapers, by the way. I fail to see how that's in any way a creative play.
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On August 22 2010 03:44 Alexstrasas wrote:
on serious note, i never took the QQs as real for this reason, i genuinely feel that zerg players are probably the least creative, its extremely rare to find any atempt at anything new in like 200 games i played so far.
Well to be fair, Zerg used to be just as creative as the other two races but each time they got crazy it got nerfed pretty bad.
Zerg used to use Nydus to surprise enemies so Blizzard made the build time 20 seconds and now it is not viable unless your opponent is a fucking idiot. (Beta patch 5)
Zerg used to research burrow and regeneration for Roaches. This got hit VERY hard. (Beta patches 6, 7, 8, 9 and 12)
Zerg players used to bring queens and a drone to make tumors and spine crawlers outside of a turtling player's base just like a Terran makes a bunker. Terrans get to salvage the bunker for 100% of the minerals, Zerg gets nerfed. (Beta patch 9 and 11)
Zerg players used to bring Corruptors to shut down Planetary Fortresses, Missile Turrets and Photon Cannons but this was quickly changed (Beta patch 11)
Overlord speed upgrade changed from 50/50 to 100/100 (Beta patch 14)
Zerg players used to have just as many cool little tricks but because the other races would complain they got taken down quite a few notches.
It isnt that Zerg is bad, they just dont have anything fun to do like the other races and not everyone wants to play Terran.
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Idra wins by a-moving and spamming 1 unit.
Zerg is underpowered, 20% representation.
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On August 22 2010 16:30 klauz619 wrote:
Idra wins by a-moving and spamming 1 unit.
Zerg is underpowered, 20% representation.
At least some trolls are funny.
You aren't.
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This idea almost just goes against everything we've known and loved about mutas. Muta stacking was key to success in BW, now the magic boss where no mutas stack is the key to success against thors. The irony tastes delicious.
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There's a reason Blizzard hasn't "balanced" this yet. Their stats are showing the matchups to be even, and hell, even in the top tournaments we usually don't even see a Terran in the mix.
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On August 22 2010 10:51 SC2Phoenix wrote:
I have no Idea why people are throwing flames around. It will sovle nothing and zergs will still complain that terran have retardly strong openings.
This.
Except that now maybe we'll also have some terran whining about mutalisks
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On August 22 2010 17:05 Sully907 wrote:
There's a reason Blizzard hasn't "balanced" this yet. Their stats are showing the matchups to be even, and hell, even in the top tournaments we usually don't even see a Terran in the mix.
You must have missed like 99% of the tournaments since retail hit the stores, Terran has been dominating (most of the time 2+ terrans in the semifinals, many times 3-4)
Ladder stats are next to useless when considering balance.. the real game is played in tournaments and terran is still dominating them, only two zerg players have faired some what well in tournaments, idra and dimaga. and they are lightyears ahead of some terran players who have done much better..wont name anyone specific =o
Also it was like 5 thors, 1500 minerals 1000 gas
Against, couldnt queite see but after the fight he had 26 muttalisks in one ctrlgroup left, so 26+ muttalisks (im guessing closer to 30), atleast 2600 minerals 2600 gas.
and people call this a fancy trick etc... holy crap nothing has changed, this "magic box" "trick" is no trick is, as far as I can see its just avoiding the small splash area of the thors by holdpos/move+stop command , especially helps when all the thors are holding hands next to each other.. there was no chance for tarson in that fight unless idra clicked with all his muttas in one spot next to the thors and didnt micro any further.
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On August 22 2010 09:41 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 08:53 RaZzy wrote:On August 22 2010 04:58 MoNoNauT wrote:I wish I had saved more of this dialogue, or even the replay, but I was too drunk on victory beer. This guy had been bragging all night about how awesome his ZvT was during our KOTH, and this was the night that the thread that started all this mess was posted. Over the course of the 35-40 minute game, he made a total of 8 marines and then nothing but thors, hellions, and tanks. After I murderized his thors, he just made more thors. I think I killed a total of 15 thors that game, with nothing but mutas.![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/juPan.png) You zerg people need some innovative play instead of just complaining about the imbalance. Zerg is indeed harder to play which makes them less attractive for some people. But the imbalance is.. maybe just slighty at the start but not magnificent as some(MOST) make it out to be. The speed and mapcontrol of the zerg can be insane. ( Totally no 'hate' vs you MoNoNauT ) When did MoNoNauT complain? All he's discussing is that he was able to win using Magic Box and Mutalisks. More tears please, they go good with Timbits :D
That's why I made the little disclaimer at the bottom  I was just using his post to show that zergs can indeed rape terrans sometimes if handled/played the right way.
I'm mainly P btw, but played alot of random aswell.
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On August 22 2010 17:35 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 17:05 Sully907 wrote:
There's a reason Blizzard hasn't "balanced" this yet. Their stats are showing the matchups to be even, and hell, even in the top tournaments we usually don't even see a Terran in the mix. You must have missed like 99% of the tournaments since retail hit the stores, Terran has been dominating (most of the time 2+ terrans in the semifinals, many times 3-4) Ladder stats are next to useless when considering balance.. the real game is played in tournaments and terran is still dominating them, only two zerg players have faired some what well in tournaments, idra and dimaga. and they are lightyears ahead of some terran players who have done much better..wont name anyone specific =o Also it was like 5 thors, 1500 minerals 1000 gas Against, couldnt queite see but after the fight he had 26 muttalisks in one ctrlgroup left, so 26+ muttalisks (im guessing closer to 30), atleast 2600 minerals 2600 gas. and people call this a fancy trick etc... holy crap nothing has changed, this "magic box" "trick" is no trick is, as far as I can see its just avoiding the small splash area of the thors by holdpos/move+stop command , especially helps when all the thors are holding hands next to each other.. there was no chance for tarson in that fight unless idra clicked with all his muttas in one spot next to the thors and didnt micro any further.
Yes because zerg units cost for cost has to be equal to terran and protoss.
Nevermind the fact that they alway have 50-100% better income.
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On August 22 2010 17:45 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 17:35 arnold(soTa) wrote:On August 22 2010 17:05 Sully907 wrote:
There's a reason Blizzard hasn't "balanced" this yet. Their stats are showing the matchups to be even, and hell, even in the top tournaments we usually don't even see a Terran in the mix. You must have missed like 99% of the tournaments since retail hit the stores, Terran has been dominating (most of the time 2+ terrans in the semifinals, many times 3-4) Ladder stats are next to useless when considering balance.. the real game is played in tournaments and terran is still dominating them, only two zerg players have faired some what well in tournaments, idra and dimaga. and they are lightyears ahead of some terran players who have done much better..wont name anyone specific =o Also it was like 5 thors, 1500 minerals 1000 gas Against, couldnt queite see but after the fight he had 26 muttalisks in one ctrlgroup left, so 26+ muttalisks (im guessing closer to 30), atleast 2600 minerals 2600 gas. and people call this a fancy trick etc... holy crap nothing has changed, this "magic box" "trick" is no trick is, as far as I can see its just avoiding the small splash area of the thors by holdpos/move+stop command , especially helps when all the thors are holding hands next to each other.. there was no chance for tarson in that fight unless idra clicked with all his muttas in one spot next to the thors and didnt micro any further. Yes because zerg units cost for cost has to be equal to terran and protoss. Nevermind the fact that they alway have 50-100% better income.
so twice the cost and better micro shouldnt allow for a win? what do you want from Zerg players? for them to have 9 hands and 9000 apm to be able to win ? tarson got outplayed pure and simple..
do the math on the units and use your brain
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On August 22 2010 17:45 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 17:35 arnold(soTa) wrote:On August 22 2010 17:05 Sully907 wrote:
There's a reason Blizzard hasn't "balanced" this yet. Their stats are showing the matchups to be even, and hell, even in the top tournaments we usually don't even see a Terran in the mix. You must have missed like 99% of the tournaments since retail hit the stores, Terran has been dominating (most of the time 2+ terrans in the semifinals, many times 3-4) Ladder stats are next to useless when considering balance.. the real game is played in tournaments and terran is still dominating them, only two zerg players have faired some what well in tournaments, idra and dimaga. and they are lightyears ahead of some terran players who have done much better..wont name anyone specific =o Also it was like 5 thors, 1500 minerals 1000 gas Against, couldnt queite see but after the fight he had 26 muttalisks in one ctrlgroup left, so 26+ muttalisks (im guessing closer to 30), atleast 2600 minerals 2600 gas. and people call this a fancy trick etc... holy crap nothing has changed, this "magic box" "trick" is no trick is, as far as I can see its just avoiding the small splash area of the thors by holdpos/move+stop command , especially helps when all the thors are holding hands next to each other.. there was no chance for tarson in that fight unless idra clicked with all his muttas in one spot next to the thors and didnt micro any further. Yes because zerg units cost for cost has to be equal to terran and protoss. Nevermind the fact that they alway have 50-100% better income.
Mineral wise but gas stays the same.
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The terran tears are only made possible through our secret hero.. The queen! :3
![[image loading]](http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3788/queenw.jpg)
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On August 22 2010 18:23 ayadew wrote:The terran tears are only made possible through our secret hero.. The queen! :3 + Show Spoiler +
Poor queen 
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On August 22 2010 18:23 ayadew wrote:The terran tears are only made possible through our secret hero.. The queen! :3 + Show Spoiler +
Thats so cool!! Who made that?
on topic: i hate how people are acting like this is some magical solution...Mutas were always good its those damn reaper/helions that are a problem
btw what people said about zergs not being creative is definitely true on the ladder, but most Terran and Protoss are just as uncreative it just hurts them less.
disclaimer: i main random.
edit: oh and as such i actually hear zerg OP almost as much as terran OP. it makes me laugh
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On August 22 2010 18:23 ayadew wrote:The terran tears are only made possible through our secret hero.. The queen! :3
That pic is insane haha!
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 22 2010 18:23 ayadew wrote:The terran tears are only made possible through our secret hero.. The queen! :3
hihi.. that thing is amazing <3
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Cool pic and poor queen
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EPT![[image loading]](http://pici.se/pictures/TnMPWalkV.jpg)
