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Hi all, just wanted to get a discussion started on what people think of this idea.
If the zerg queen were to start with 50 energy (like all casters) I think that it would have two nice effects.
1. Instant tumor.
Zerg already relies heavily on a good creep spread, and getting this super early tumor would allow queens to play a more active role in defense in the really early stages, and also help zerglings out against fast reaper plays.
2. Transfuse on spawn
Having a queen at 50 energy will of course allow a queen to immediately use transfuse upon spawning, which would be a nice boon against early banshees where unless rushing for lair tech, queens are the only option.
I'm sure you could come up with other reasons why this would help, but I'd like to hear what you guys think!
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I think orbital commands should start with 100 energy so terran doesn't have to choose between a mule and a scan right away.
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On August 21 2010 12:10 Izzy2011 wrote:
I think orbital commands should start with 100 energy so terran doesn't have to choose between a mule and a scan right away.
It starts at 50, so the only smart option is MULE.
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While it would certainly help, a big aspect of strategy games like Starcraft is giving players many decisions to make. The less choice players have, the harder it is to tell the good players from the bad ones.
Imagine if they just combined the zergling, roach, and hydra all into one unit. Sure, it would be 'good,' but what fun is it just watching everyone do the same thing every game all the time? We've seen players choose to go for an early creep tumor rather than first inject, and it can benefit them a lot sometimes. Giving the queen extra energy would just homogenize builds.
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Yes! I really like this idea. I always have to choose between this and its pretty annoying. I usually spawn larvae first, then make a tumor
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On August 21 2010 12:10 Izzy2011 wrote:
I think orbital commands should start with 100 energy so terran doesn't have to choose between a mule and a scan right away.
its not that he doesnt want to have to choose and hes complaining, hes saying every other caster (i think> all of them?) spawn if 50 energy, except queen, which spawns with 25. makes sense.
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While this would help Zerg a little early game, making the game easier is not the right way to buff races.
Also, I don't know if this thread is violating the rule that much, but this quote by Chill might apply to this:
+ Show Spoiler +Yes, I will continue to close any balance thread in the Starcraft 2 section. Read on!
Starcraft players live in a world confined by rules (the game data is made by Blizzard - we can't change it). Posting how to bend those rules (glitches, tricks) is very valuable. Posting how to maximize our abilities in that world (strategy, tactics, mechanics build orders) is also very valuable. Identifying problems with the rules (racial balance threads, unit balance threads) help us to fully understand the potential of the rules. Asking for help about the world (help threads, posting replays) is encouraged.
However, posting that you wish the rules were changed has no value. Because the rules are the rules. It doesn't matter how you want them to be, because you will not get them changed. So it boils down to your own personal opinion. Which means it should be a blog ("These are my views on StarCraft II", "How I wish StarCraft II was").
To further the analogy: Scientific threads would go in general; Medical breakthrough threads would go in general; Professional style and relationship advice would go in general; "I wish the universe was set up so when I closed my eyes lasers shot out of my fingers" would go in blogs.
Do you agree?
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I think it's nice that when a Queen is built, you have to decide between larva and creep. It's adds strategy and decision making to the game. I actually like restrictions like this
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On August 21 2010 12:10 Izzy2011 wrote:
I think orbital commands should start with 100 energy so terran doesn't have to choose between a mule and a scan right away.
The obvious choice is 2 mules.
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If I'm not mistaken, nexuses (yes, it's a word) start with 0 energy. This inconsistency is kind of strange. You would think if OC's start with 50 and queens with 25 that nexuses would start with 25 as well. Although you could argue that Terran and Zerg have to build up to their macro mechanic, while the toss start with theirs. Meh.
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On August 21 2010 12:11 im a roc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 12:10 Izzy2011 wrote:
I think orbital commands should start with 100 energy so terran doesn't have to choose between a mule and a scan right away. It starts at 50, so the only smart option is MULE.
Sarcasm detected
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I created a custom version of lost temple to do some testing with Zerg tweaks.
map is called Zerg Balance test v2- lost temple, and is on bnet (not sure if you need more info to find it).
The tweaks I tested were Queens starting at 50 energy, and burrow moved to T1.
I found the queen change to be somewhat significant. It allowed me to start creeping early, and without sacrificing larva. With a 13 pool 14 hatch build, I had creep down to the expansion by the time it popped. That allowed me to pre-build the spine crawler I would normally have there, and thus have a spine crawler sitting at my ramp for early defense and choke blocking.
When at adjacent, near, positions, I was able to extend creep to the opp's base at the time mutas started to pop. This might make it too strong, but more testing would be needed.
Burrow at t1 didn't make much difference. The cost and time to build are just too much. It was a little helpful tp roaches though. Against marauders, I could burrow a roach at yellow, and heal up. This sometimes forced a scan, which was still helpful to me; I would lost another roach or two, but the offset of 200+ min for the scan was worth it.
I could rush to burrow, instead of ling speed, but the result against P or T was negligible. Useful for denying a Z expansion though.
Anyway, feel free to try it out. You might find something I didn't.
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I think that's a ridiculous idea. I'm a zerg player and only a zerg player and I think that this would be overpowered as hell. The idea of starting the creep spread this early is insane to me. I'm sure you are aware that once creep spread gets started, it continues very very fast, and with a fast expand build having two extremely early creep tumors starts a massive spread that would be very overpowered off the start. The lack of detection at that very early stage in the game, the value of that scouting information and the speed bonus you'd find on roaches and non-speedlings would be too powerful.
EDIT: Although the Burrow at Tier 1 idea intrigues me. Zerg tier 1 is marred by limited strategies and too few choices. Adding burrow at Tier 1 not only increases the potential strategy beyond the basic (Baneling Mines, Burrowing Roaches, Zergling Sandtraps), but it provides an interesting choice: Queen, Burrow or Lair? Such a choice could make or break a game.
Although it may make the hatcherya very busy structure in the early game. Possibly a little too busy
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Holy crap, Chill wishes that lasers shot out of his fingers too?!?!?! *Bonding moment*
I actually think it is a good idea, the extra energy. I personally think ZvT only needs very tiny tweaking. I mean, at higher levels minor imbalances will be abused to death, and I don't want to see reaper bunker rush for the rest of my life in ZvT. This might actually be a good solution.
I was thinking maybe a slightly lower build time for queens too, but who knows. I am sure Blizzard will figure it out.
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I think the issue isn't being able to tumor and spawn larva. It would be nice if perhaps tranfusion healed half the life it does now but also costs half energy as much. This way you would open up more possiblities with your queens while not letting you tumor and spawn larva.
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I think the issue isn't being able to tumor and spawn larva. It would be nice if perhaps tranfusion healed half the life it does now but also costs half energy as much. This way you would open up more possiblities with your queens while not letting you tumor and spawn larva.
I like the transfusion idea. The amount healed is, in most cases, an over-heal on zerg units anyway. My only concern is that 25/25/25 energy spells is kinda goofy. The orbital command has 50/50/50 though, so who knows.
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No, keep it at 25.
It's good to have to make a decision like that, and knowing when you can use a creep tumor because you won't need the larva immediatly, etc.
Transfusion is fine as it is.
It's a bit underused, but in those situations where you do use it it is a complete lifesaver.
(2queens vs banshee/voidrays, healing up spinecrawlers against 4gate etc).
And you need to actually plan ahead, for example, I know that a voidray is incoming, so I better save up energy on this second queen, and only after I am safe start spreading creep tumors.
25 energy heal would be to much of a "oh I got surprised, oh well transfusion".
I just don't like these changes because what they do is just make the game a bit easier, sc2 doesn't need to be easier.
If Zerg is to hard in comparison to the other races, make the other races (their macro-mechanics) harder, don't make zerg easier imo
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On August 21 2010 13:37 monterto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 12:11 im a roc wrote:On August 21 2010 12:10 Izzy2011 wrote:
I think orbital commands should start with 100 energy so terran doesn't have to choose between a mule and a scan right away. It starts at 50, so the only smart option is MULE. Sarcasm detected
really stupid sarcasm that is
izzy clearly trying to mock the OP's idea which is actually legit IMO
as if you can equate 2mules/mule+scan to a spawn larvae+creep tumor or a panic transfusion
its not like the extra energy gives extra larvae
it gives a creep tumor for easier early game or a transfusion you probably wont use any time soon if ever at all
note - i actually would be against this idea, it would really hurt zvz and make early muta an awful transition
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i think this is actually a pretty good idea.
especially right at the beginning when u need to join your expo to your nat, and for transfusion when u have to panic build a queen when u scout fast banshees or w/e and aren't at lair
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Reason why Nexus has 0 energy is because you start with it, the reason why orbital command starts with 50 is because every spell costs 50. The reason why queens start with 25 is because it's 2 feasible spells are tumor and inject. The reason why other units start with 50 is because the base can be upgraded.
My request is make an upgrade for the queen something that costs 50/50 *min/gas to utilize the spawning pool after metabolic increase. This seems like a relative trade off as opposed to just giving it to us for free.
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maby giving the queen a higher energy recovery rate either by default or by upgrade could help without being too powerfull, it would leave the queen with the extra chance of defending from early air-harass (provided 2 queens are out) thanks to the extra energy being able to be spent on heals. You would still have the strategic option of spreading creep or staying safe from early air attacks. It would however not allow the zerg to start creeping directly which seems a bit to strong.
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Put mules and scan a 40 sec sharing cooldown and give oC 150 statring energy and none would care imo .
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the Queen works right now. You have a choice between spreading creep or injecting larva. If you forget to inject larva at some point in the game it in effect is the exact same thing as forgetting to warp in units as Protoss, you wasted production time.
The fix for Zerg is likely in making Roaches more viable early game since almost every strat that Zerg struggles with early could have been countered by Roaches.
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EPT
