EPTZerglings causing the problem? - Page 2
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:02 grudgeStar wrote: If they are so bad why do people still insist on getting the speed upgrade? I am not very good, but can't you just go early lair and tech straight for hydras/mutas and rely on more roaches in the early game? You could go early lair -> roach speed -> hydras for example. Hydra/Roach is a very viable comp. You can't because it's too easy to abuse the lack of speed of roaches early game. Anyway we don't say that lings are bad early game.. it's kidna the only game time where you can use them propely beside of end/mid game run by. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:02 grudgeStar wrote: If they are so bad why do people still insist on getting the speed upgrade? I am not very good, but can't you just go early lair and tech straight for hydras/mutas and rely on more roaches in the early game? You could go early lair -> roach speed -> hydras for example. Hydra/Roach is a very viable comp. It depends on your build and what the other guy is doing. Going fast expand then roaches is expensive and time consuming. Without lings your open to a lot of aggression. Also if i want banelings then i need speed anyways. PS anyone saying a buff would make lings OP early dont really understand what the change would do. | ||
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KinosJourney2
Sweden1811 Posts
On August 21 2010 00:47 Jibba wrote: I think this is a really good point. Still, it seems like lings are too weak at killing buildings, now that they all come with armor, and that's not really affected by the AI change at all. Might be a good point but zerglings have alot of hard counters in SC2 (Hellions, Zealots, Archons, High templars, Banelings etc.), i'd love a zergling buff cause they are just useless right now. | ||
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Jameser
Sweden951 Posts
most notably they need to be on better footing with reapers, I feel increasing zergling runspeed to be on par with reapers (both without upgrades) would not only force reapers to use cliffjumping to get the kind of ridiculous advantages they have on zerglings atm, but it would also help zerglings a little against toss 2gate openings now I'm not sure if this would make zerglings too strong against protoss but I feel this change along with a nerf to bunker salvage would put an end to the ridiculous bunker rushing that's going on another option would be to reduce reaper movement speed to be on par with zerglings or even make a change to the reaper speed upgrade, but definetly reapers destroy zerglings way too hard | ||
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Yurie
11819 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:09 Jameser wrote: another option would be to reduce reaper movement speed to be on par with zerglings or even make a change to the reaper speed upgrade, but definetly reapers destroy zerglings way too hard Un-upgraded zerglings and reapers are the same speed. On creep zerglings are 30% faster. Upgraded zerglings are faster, on or off creep. edit See: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Reaper http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zergling | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Adrenal also needs to be back to 50% or even higher. It's useless right now, effectively not worth getting since a melee up is about the same cost and just as much dps for ALL your melee. | ||
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raph
United States204 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:02 grudgeStar wrote: If they are so bad why do people still insist on getting the speed upgrade? I am not very good, but can't you just go early lair and tech straight for hydras/mutas and rely on more roaches in the early game? You could go early lair -> roach speed -> hydras for example. Hydra/Roach is a very viable comp. roaches are too costly, vs T hydras arent very useful considering theyre a light unit. you need early ling speed to deal with hellion/reaper harassment, 2gate pushes/heavy stalker, and in zvz it makes a monumental difference on getting surrounds off. in short no speed = get fucked early game even harder. without speed you have slow bumbling carcases running around. roach hydra is decently viable i find it to be a little costly but teching straight to it clearly is not the answer in the least. you need to take steps into moving toward something, teching blindly to roach hydra doesnt help. if they do any early game aggression youll be in trouble because youll be low on roaches and busy teching to lair. this build offers little actual flexibility. i dare anyone as z to try playing a bo7 vs huk or silver and trying a straight lair tech to roach hydra lol. youll just get 4-0'd | ||
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
On August 21 2010 00:40 NukeTheBunnys wrote: lings were nerfed to make up for the pathing changes. The whole auto surround thing benefits lings much more then almost any other unit. I have the feeling that if lings had the same attack speed ratio as BW they would be OP. I haven't tested it, and even if I did test it I don't feel that I'm qualified to make a decision on balance. In any case, I just remember reading something to this effect a while ago. The pathing changes killed lings more then helped them. Units clump perfectly now all the time such that lings can ONLY fight vs the surface area of the whatever ball. Even though lings were better in bw if you had a bunch of any ranged units placed perfectly in a clump so that lings could only attack the outside units, the lings would pretty much fail unless they had significantly significantly larger numbers. | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On August 21 2010 00:34 Lysenko wrote: I'm pretty sure that's by design, since otherwise there's no way to respond to a 6 pool on a small map. That said, a balance change to zergling attack that didn't undo that but made the cost a little heavier for the defender might have other positive effects. I actually think 6 pools are ridiculously easy to defend, but the defensive point shouldn't be once the guys are in your mineral line. If a protoss or a terran player scouts at a reasonable time on steppes (the quintessential zerg early pool map), they can delay the attack with a wall-off. Right now they don't even need to do this (even if it's the best option). Putting up an emergency pylon/ supply depot (even if it disrupts your build) is pretty much gg since the attack won't land in time and the zerg player is dead economically, this would be true with our without the slight attack speed upgrades. The issue right now is that zerg can't produce enough zerglings due to larva (even with spawn larva) to defend against early rushes with them. | ||
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
That, and possibly making adrenal glands a lair tech, or making it do more then the pissant increase it does right now. In BW you could TELL when you had crack upgraded, right now you can't see a difference unless you really pay attention... | ||
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Glasse
Canada1237 Posts
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:27 Shiladie wrote: Simply undo the change in alpha where they increased the zergling size. That, and possibly making adrenal glands a lair tech, or making it do more then the pissant increase it does right now. In BW you could TELL when you had crack upgraded, right now you can't see a difference unless you really pay attention... I was joking about this last night on vet. Talking about making zerglings so small that 12 of them could surround a zealot. They would be extra-swarmy too. I'm a little worried this might make them even worse against tanks and hellions though. | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote: Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealot http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zergling http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Marine SC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealot http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zergling http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". | ||
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sk`
Japan442 Posts
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Monokeros
United States2493 Posts
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ta2
125 Posts
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
The biggest con with the zergling right now is the huge amount of space it takes up. Sometimes it shocks me just how far they spread apart when they try to attack a building. And If they space imperfectly, you can get as few as 4 zergling on a zealot in open field! that's a bit... bad. The 2nd biggest con is also a pro: the AI. The AI is great when hauling into someone's base over a depressed supply depot, but when surrounding enemy units, I have to disagree that the AI is very good. I find it to be very bad, and the more I play, the more I hate it. Ultimately, that's ok, because I never let my lings do their own thing, but the AI pathing, imo, helps out terran and toss way more than it will ever help zerg, and that includes zergling. And that's my 2 worth on ling. | ||
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tacrats
476 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote: Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote: Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". If by big tournaments you mean KotB and that s it, then yes, else absolutely not | ||
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