|
im sorry but tewy, did you follow bw at all? do you have any clue as to how massive the actual skill gaps are between good usa players and idra?
|
On August 21 2010 02:04 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:59 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:52 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh... Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG.. Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot. I think I got your point. The reason why Zergs win most of the tournaments is because they're the better players. But the fact that they don't win them all proofs that there are balance issues, otherwise the Zerg players, as "obvious" better players, would win them all. This proofs without a shadow of doubt that Zerg is the weakest race and should get buffed. Thanks for enlightening me with your flawless logic. Your logic is just as bad if you think protoss is UP because they didnt make it out of their group stage in 1 tournament. Move along young one.
Wait. How can you say that that logic is flawed? Do you really think Hasu is worse of a technical player than Dimaga or IdrA? Of course not. At that level, everyone has perfect timing and micro. If not a single Protoss got out of group, then there is a flaw with the race. Terran bio armies rape gateway armies, and heavy robo isn't cost effective vs 50 min marines and a couple marauders.
Why don't you respond ot arguments instead of just dismissing them out of hand and being patronizing, you ass.
|
There's nothing wrong with Zerglings imo, they're damn incredible if used right 
|
Idra is a terrible representation of "all zerg players" tewy.
Thanks for playing.
Oh and Idra is at the forefront of this "Zerg Underpowered" issue. He's openly stated his (subtle) hatred for Terran players because of the ease of scouting and harass, yet you continue to use him as your poster child for why Zerg is in fact OP.
Protoss players have another issue they need to deal with, but it's not the same as the Zerg's massive uphill battle in ZvT, since ZvP is definitely an easier battle for Toss players AS WELL.
|
On August 21 2010 02:44 MaD.pYrO wrote:There's nothing wrong with Zerglings imo, they're damn incredible if used right
so what's that sum? 6/4a^4 is the integral, so I'm thinking something like 6/4(sum) (a^4)^n/n!, but that only converges for n<1...seems kinda useless IMO.
edit: nvm, the taylor polynomial would converge to integral 1a2a3a da for all a<1, not n. my bad.
|
On August 21 2010 02:43 silencesc wrote:
Wait. How can you say that that logic is flawed? Do you really think Hasu is worse of a technical player than Dimaga or IdrA? Of course not. At that level, everyone has perfect timing and micro. If not a single Protoss got out of group, then there is a flaw with the race. Terran bio armies rape gateway armies, and heavy robo isn't cost effective vs 50 min marines and a couple marauders.
Why don't you respond ot arguments instead of just dismissing them out of hand and being patronizing, you ass.
Idra probably has 10 times better mechanics than Hasu and Diamaga combined, don't know if he's able to use them to full potential in sc2 though
|
They should bump the cost of speed down to either 50/50 like the concussive shells upgrade or make it free. That would prevent lings from being overpowered and would open up a lot of options for zerg early game. You could use the saved gas to defend an early rush, put on early pressure, fast tech to lair...
|
On August 21 2010 02:43 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 02:04 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:59 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:52 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh... Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG.. Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot. I think I got your point. The reason why Zergs win most of the tournaments is because they're the better players. But the fact that they don't win them all proofs that there are balance issues, otherwise the Zerg players, as "obvious" better players, would win them all. This proofs without a shadow of doubt that Zerg is the weakest race and should get buffed. Thanks for enlightening me with your flawless logic. Your logic is just as bad if you think protoss is UP because they didnt make it out of their group stage in 1 tournament. Move along young one. Wait. How can you say that that logic is flawed? Do you really think Hasu is worse of a technical player than Dimaga or IdrA? Of course not. At that level, everyone has perfect timing and micro. If not a single Protoss got out of group, then there is a flaw with the race. Terran bio armies rape gateway armies, and heavy robo isn't cost effective vs 50 min marines and a couple marauders. Why don't you respond ot arguments instead of just dismissing them out of hand and being patronizing, you ass.
Yes.
I don't think anyone would disagree that IdrA is simply a better player.
|
edit: oops...thought he said something else.
|
On August 21 2010 02:51 pwnasaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 02:43 silencesc wrote:On August 21 2010 02:04 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:59 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:52 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh... Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG.. Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot. I think I got your point. The reason why Zergs win most of the tournaments is because they're the better players. But the fact that they don't win them all proofs that there are balance issues, otherwise the Zerg players, as "obvious" better players, would win them all. This proofs without a shadow of doubt that Zerg is the weakest race and should get buffed. Thanks for enlightening me with your flawless logic. Your logic is just as bad if you think protoss is UP because they didnt make it out of their group stage in 1 tournament. Move along young one. Wait. How can you say that that logic is flawed? Do you really think Hasu is worse of a technical player than Dimaga or IdrA? Of course not. At that level, everyone has perfect timing and micro. If not a single Protoss got out of group, then there is a flaw with the race. Terran bio armies rape gateway armies, and heavy robo isn't cost effective vs 50 min marines and a couple marauders. Why don't you respond ot arguments instead of just dismissing them out of hand and being patronizing, you ass. Yes. I don't think anyone would disagree that IdrA is simply a better player.
Oh, so that's why he got raped in the HDH, thanks for clarifying.
|
On August 21 2010 02:53 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 02:51 pwnasaurus wrote:On August 21 2010 02:43 silencesc wrote:On August 21 2010 02:04 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:59 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:52 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh... Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG.. Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot. I think I got your point. The reason why Zergs win most of the tournaments is because they're the better players. But the fact that they don't win them all proofs that there are balance issues, otherwise the Zerg players, as "obvious" better players, would win them all. This proofs without a shadow of doubt that Zerg is the weakest race and should get buffed. Thanks for enlightening me with your flawless logic. Your logic is just as bad if you think protoss is UP because they didnt make it out of their group stage in 1 tournament. Move along young one. Wait. How can you say that that logic is flawed? Do you really think Hasu is worse of a technical player than Dimaga or IdrA? Of course not. At that level, everyone has perfect timing and micro. If not a single Protoss got out of group, then there is a flaw with the race. Terran bio armies rape gateway armies, and heavy robo isn't cost effective vs 50 min marines and a couple marauders. Why don't you respond ot arguments instead of just dismissing them out of hand and being patronizing, you ass. Yes. I don't think anyone would disagree that IdrA is simply a better player. Oh, so that's why he got raped in the HDH, thanks for clarifying.
Being the best team or being the best player doesnt matter. Thats why people play the games. THats why the best team usually doesn't win championships, whether team composition or regular season play.
u dumb bro
|
On August 21 2010 02:52 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 02:50 Dental Floss wrote:
They should bump the cost of speed down to either 50/50 like the concussive shells upgrade or make it free. That would prevent lings from being overpowered and would open up a lot of options for zerg early game. You could use the saved gas to defend an early rush, put on early pressure, fast tech to lair... It would also completely break TvP. early zealot pressure would be denied easily, and terran cout just sit behind his wall and go about his business.
This is the most confusing post ever.
|
I miss stronger lings. Totally agree with OP.
|
On August 21 2010 02:52 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 02:50 Dental Floss wrote:
They should bump the cost of speed down to either 50/50 like the concussive shells upgrade or make it free. That would prevent lings from being overpowered and would open up a lot of options for zerg early game. You could use the saved gas to defend an early rush, put on early pressure, fast tech to lair... It would also completely break TvP. early zealot pressure would be denied easily, and terran cout just sit behind his wall and go about his business.
Sorry, but I fail to see how lowering the cost of a Zerg upgrade will make TvP imbalanced.
For me, I think that Zerglings should be buffed health wise and attack speed wise. The terrible terrible damage syndrome still renders Zerglings useless if the health isn't buffed.
|
On August 21 2010 02:53 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 02:51 pwnasaurus wrote:On August 21 2010 02:43 silencesc wrote:On August 21 2010 02:04 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:59 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:52 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh... Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG.. Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot. I think I got your point. The reason why Zergs win most of the tournaments is because they're the better players. But the fact that they don't win them all proofs that there are balance issues, otherwise the Zerg players, as "obvious" better players, would win them all. This proofs without a shadow of doubt that Zerg is the weakest race and should get buffed. Thanks for enlightening me with your flawless logic. Your logic is just as bad if you think protoss is UP because they didnt make it out of their group stage in 1 tournament. Move along young one. Wait. How can you say that that logic is flawed? Do you really think Hasu is worse of a technical player than Dimaga or IdrA? Of course not. At that level, everyone has perfect timing and micro. If not a single Protoss got out of group, then there is a flaw with the race. Terran bio armies rape gateway armies, and heavy robo isn't cost effective vs 50 min marines and a couple marauders. Why don't you respond ot arguments instead of just dismissing them out of hand and being patronizing, you ass. Yes. I don't think anyone would disagree that IdrA is simply a better player. Oh, so that's why he got raped in the HDH, thanks for clarifying.
So you honestly think every pro has identical skill? I can't even believe the ignorance of a such a statement.
Gotta break it to you buddy, NOBODY has perfect timing and micro.
|
The only way ling's are useful late game (with the new AI surround) is to stop units from running away so hydras/roaches can actually deal damage. They are essentially walls and that is a painful realization.
|
|
|
On August 21 2010 02:55 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 02:53 silencesc wrote:On August 21 2010 02:51 pwnasaurus wrote:On August 21 2010 02:43 silencesc wrote:On August 21 2010 02:04 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:59 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:52 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:
[quote]
Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well.
It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh... Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG.. Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot. I think I got your point. The reason why Zergs win most of the tournaments is because they're the better players. But the fact that they don't win them all proofs that there are balance issues, otherwise the Zerg players, as "obvious" better players, would win them all. This proofs without a shadow of doubt that Zerg is the weakest race and should get buffed. Thanks for enlightening me with your flawless logic. Your logic is just as bad if you think protoss is UP because they didnt make it out of their group stage in 1 tournament. Move along young one. Wait. How can you say that that logic is flawed? Do you really think Hasu is worse of a technical player than Dimaga or IdrA? Of course not. At that level, everyone has perfect timing and micro. If not a single Protoss got out of group, then there is a flaw with the race. Terran bio armies rape gateway armies, and heavy robo isn't cost effective vs 50 min marines and a couple marauders. Why don't you respond ot arguments instead of just dismissing them out of hand and being patronizing, you ass. Yes. I don't think anyone would disagree that IdrA is simply a better player. Oh, so that's why he got raped in the HDH, thanks for clarifying. Being the best team or being the best player doesnt matter. Thats why people play the games. THats why the best team usually doesn't win championships, whether team composition or regular season play. u dumb bro
I'm sorry, what? That made absolutely no sense. Not only the logic, but the sentence structure is all screwed up. I thought the had devolved into an argument about whether or not IdrA (or any Zerg) was the best player because protoss had problems against terran, not about who wins the most tournaments.
If you could clarify that thought so that I could respond, it would be much appreciated.
|
On August 21 2010 03:03 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 02:55 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 02:53 silencesc wrote:On August 21 2010 02:51 pwnasaurus wrote:On August 21 2010 02:43 silencesc wrote:On August 21 2010 02:04 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:59 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:52 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:
[quote]
Extremely flawed argument alert!
Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh... Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG.. Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot. I think I got your point. The reason why Zergs win most of the tournaments is because they're the better players. But the fact that they don't win them all proofs that there are balance issues, otherwise the Zerg players, as "obvious" better players, would win them all. This proofs without a shadow of doubt that Zerg is the weakest race and should get buffed. Thanks for enlightening me with your flawless logic. Your logic is just as bad if you think protoss is UP because they didnt make it out of their group stage in 1 tournament. Move along young one. Wait. How can you say that that logic is flawed? Do you really think Hasu is worse of a technical player than Dimaga or IdrA? Of course not. At that level, everyone has perfect timing and micro. If not a single Protoss got out of group, then there is a flaw with the race. Terran bio armies rape gateway armies, and heavy robo isn't cost effective vs 50 min marines and a couple marauders. Why don't you respond ot arguments instead of just dismissing them out of hand and being patronizing, you ass. Yes. I don't think anyone would disagree that IdrA is simply a better player. Oh, so that's why he got raped in the HDH, thanks for clarifying. Being the best team or being the best player doesnt matter. Thats why people play the games. THats why the best team usually doesn't win championships, whether team composition or regular season play. u dumb bro I'm sorry, what? That made absolutely no sense. Not only the logic, but the sentence structure is all screwed up. I thought the had devolved into an argument about whether or not IdrA (or any Zerg) was the best player because protoss had problems against terran, not about who wins the most tournaments. If you could clarify that thought so that I could respond, it would be much appreciated.
How about you answer my last post instead of cherrypicking the one to respond to. If you think all pros have = skill, and that all pros play perfectly every game, you have lost ALL credibility.
|
What?? Zerglings are one of Zerg's best units (cost wise) and they fit in with most army compositions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
