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On August 21 2010 03:03 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 02:55 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 02:53 silencesc wrote:On August 21 2010 02:51 pwnasaurus wrote:On August 21 2010 02:43 silencesc wrote:On August 21 2010 02:04 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:59 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:52 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:
[quote]
Extremely flawed argument alert!
Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh... Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG.. Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot. I think I got your point. The reason why Zergs win most of the tournaments is because they're the better players. But the fact that they don't win them all proofs that there are balance issues, otherwise the Zerg players, as "obvious" better players, would win them all. This proofs without a shadow of doubt that Zerg is the weakest race and should get buffed. Thanks for enlightening me with your flawless logic. Your logic is just as bad if you think protoss is UP because they didnt make it out of their group stage in 1 tournament. Move along young one. Wait. How can you say that that logic is flawed? Do you really think Hasu is worse of a technical player than Dimaga or IdrA? Of course not. At that level, everyone has perfect timing and micro. If not a single Protoss got out of group, then there is a flaw with the race. Terran bio armies rape gateway armies, and heavy robo isn't cost effective vs 50 min marines and a couple marauders. Why don't you respond ot arguments instead of just dismissing them out of hand and being patronizing, you ass. Yes. I don't think anyone would disagree that IdrA is simply a better player. Oh, so that's why he got raped in the HDH, thanks for clarifying. Being the best team or being the best player doesnt matter. Thats why people play the games. THats why the best team usually doesn't win championships, whether team composition or regular season play. u dumb bro I'm sorry, what? That made absolutely no sense. Not only the logic, but the sentence structure is all screwed up. I thought the had devolved into an argument about whether or not IdrA (or any Zerg) was the best player because protoss had problems against terran, not about who wins the most tournaments. If you could clarify that thought so that I could respond, it would be much appreciated.
Simple. You think that if IdrA was the best, he should have won the HDH.
However, in real life, the 'best' doesn't always win.
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Woah hold up, i dont think lings are the problem here. Id be the first one to agree that zergs early game is weak as balls, but buffing lings would just make z stoop to terrans level. Zlings with speed are useful in nearly EVERY situation. On creep, their speed and pathing make up for the atk speed reduction twice over. It may seem like they are less effective, but thats the enemy's ball thats making them suck. Lings relied on dispersed forces in BW. They stall retreating units and give zerg an instant double prong on open maps. Blizz has left plenty of options for all races to deal with people who have 1ctrl group syndrome. Lings will have their place once players learn how to spread properly vs AoE and concave that shit. Lings will shine then.
Roache supply on the other hand...
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I don't know if it is just me but almost every game I never get that many zerglings, I normally go roaches instead. First off zerglings just feel really weak right now and as every zerg player knows you need all the larvae you can get early game. I tend to go roaches because they are actually good and they can defend an early attack while zerglings would just get stomped.
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I always make plenty of zerglings :/ maybe that's why always lose.
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One of the best things about zerglings is you rarely have to fight in a situation you dont want to. They are so fast that if you find your self in a bad situation you can run away, yeah you will take some losses, but losing 5 lings isn't that much, many other units dont really have that option of running away. Of course when defending your base from big pushes, zerglings are pretty shitty in most cases, but they are fantastic at flanking the enemy from behind and taking out seiged tanks or counter attacking the enemy base, 20 lings can rip through a worker line in seconds.
I think one of the largest problems with zerg play at the moment is that many players to force things that don't work, such as trying to force zerglings into the role of a well rounded attacker/defender, when they are really more of a skirmishing unit it my eyes, extremely useful to hit the enemy where they are weak
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On August 21 2010 03:09 JudoChopper wrote:
What?? Zerglings are one of Zerg's best units (cost wise) and they fit in with most army compositions.
They suck against Hellions, wall-ins, chokes, big MM balls. They are also really expensive in terms of larvae which you could otherwise spend on drones or roaches.
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i have a lot of problems with zerg, but i don't have a problem with zerglings. with a little bit of micro i can hold off early game pressure fairly easily, be it 2gate, hellions, or early infantry pushes.
i don't get them later game because i feel that if i can afford ranged units with higher dps and more health, then there is really no reason not to.
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I have a lot of fun with lings early game, especially against protoss. If you just have enough lings (and it's so much easier to get a lot of lings early game with the queen when compared to brood war). They're certainly weaker than in BW but you can get more of them, faster and that makes up for it imho. Mass speedlings is just so strong very early.
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perhaps making the 20% dmg increase a lair upgrade rather than a hive would be decent
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On August 21 2010 03:20 NukeTheBunnys wrote:
One of the best things about zerglings is you rarely have to fight in a situation you dont want to. They are so fast that if you find your self in a bad situation you can run away, yeah you will take some losses, but losing 5 lings isn't that much, many other units dont really have that option of running away. Of course when defending your base from big pushes, zerglings are pretty shitty in most cases, but they are fantastic at flanking the enemy from behind and taking out seiged tanks or counter attacking the enemy base, 20 lings can rip through a worker line in seconds.
I think one of the largest problems with zerg play at the moment is that many players to force things that don't work, such as trying to force zerglings into the role of a well rounded attacker/defender, when they are really more of a skirmishing unit it my eyes, extremely useful to hit the enemy where they are weak
Problem is, skirmishing opprotunities are rare in sc2. I can rush lings into a mineral line of a toss but he will warp in a bunch of zeals and my lings will die or i cna run them away. So what if he had to make units to defend, hes going to use them anyways. If i rush a terran expo and hes got a PF, how am i going to harass that with lings?
Sure lings can poke around here and tyhere but really, there arnt any real opportunities for them to do more than an insignificant amount of damage in most cases.
Sure they can kill scouts, take xel naga towers, and pick off a wandering unit, but i still think the costs are better spent elsewhere.
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On August 21 2010 02:53 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 02:51 pwnasaurus wrote:On August 21 2010 02:43 silencesc wrote:On August 21 2010 02:04 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:59 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:52 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh... Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG.. Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot. I think I got your point. The reason why Zergs win most of the tournaments is because they're the better players. But the fact that they don't win them all proofs that there are balance issues, otherwise the Zerg players, as "obvious" better players, would win them all. This proofs without a shadow of doubt that Zerg is the weakest race and should get buffed. Thanks for enlightening me with your flawless logic. Your logic is just as bad if you think protoss is UP because they didnt make it out of their group stage in 1 tournament. Move along young one. Wait. How can you say that that logic is flawed? Do you really think Hasu is worse of a technical player than Dimaga or IdrA? Of course not. At that level, everyone has perfect timing and micro. If not a single Protoss got out of group, then there is a flaw with the race. Terran bio armies rape gateway armies, and heavy robo isn't cost effective vs 50 min marines and a couple marauders. Why don't you respond ot arguments instead of just dismissing them out of hand and being patronizing, you ass. Yes. I don't think anyone would disagree that IdrA is simply a better player. Oh, so that's why he got raped in the HDH, thanks for clarifying.
Wait, what?
In a thread arguing that Zerg is UP, you're taking the other side because Idra, arguably the best Zerg player in the world (and probably the best SC2 player in general), didn't win the HDH?
No, he doesn't play perfectly, but between perfect and shit there is endless, so that's not even an argument.
Get with the damn program already. If you had actually been paying attention, you would have known that most top players also considers ZvP increasingly broken (in favour of P). TvP is easily the most balanced match-up bar the mirrors (even though it's obvious that T generally is the better race).
Actually, I don't know why I'm even writing this. You should just read more and write less. There are literally hundreds of posts from top players on this forums that, in detail (mind you), explains the problem with Zerg right now. This isn't an obscure problem at all, nor even up for debate.
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i still believe the biggest problem for zerg is the shitty ball AI
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Zerg just sucks, idra wins cuz he's a much better player than the other guys.
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Um, the way roach hydra becomes a very viable strat is when you get those upgrades going asap. beat the opponent in upgrades and that comp will destroy him. other wise it gets raped
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On August 21 2010 03:33 PeT[uK] wrote:
Um, the way roach hydra becomes a very viable strat is when you get those upgrades going asap. beat the opponent in upgrades and that comp will destroy him. other wise it gets raped
2/2 hydra roach gets crushed against a 0/0 P with zeal/few sstalker/sentry/collosi
but yes they do help
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hey silencesc, would you mind stop trolling? idra is the best player, zerg is UP in zvt, and even the best players have losses, he is the best yes, but that doesnt mean he will have 100% winrate
you dumb bro
+ Show Spoiler +good sir, you appear to be somewhat lacking in intelligence. please refrain from posting until this is remedied, since it renders your opinions slightly less than correct and has a tendency to irritate more informed forum-goers
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zerglings are only good now if you can get a surround. if you can't get a surround you should run away. Even if you can only get a surround on one unit. run the other ones away. They're faster than everything else.
Lings work to tank damage and Stop the enemy from retreating. Their DPS is also pretty good, I think it's almost as good as a hydra on low-armored units. It's not BW..
The reason they are used more is because roaches suck. Marines can kite them, especially with stim and off creep. Marauders own them.
Hydras are immobile as hell w/o creep which makes it very difficult to push with them. Not really sure what blizzard's problem with zerg was changing their units so drastically from BW. I guess spawn larva is really that powerful of a macro mechanic 
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btw, i dont feel like looking it up, but whoever said "at that level they all have perfect timing and micro" all i have to say tto u is fuckin R O F L clearly you have no idea what your talking about. ahaha
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On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:
Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion.
Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far.
What race won the World Cup? Zerg.
What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg.
What race won the King of the beta? Zerg.
What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg.
How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh...
As for the World Cup it was in May, From what i can remember I terran strats had not evolved into their current Mech heavy form yet vs Zerg.
The Kaspersky Cup was also in May so the later applies was well, It also only had 2 terrans, while it had 4 zerg, 5 Toss and 1 random.
In King of the Beta Tourney both Terran made it to the semi finals. I believe that was the first time Idra had beaten Tester in a multi game match. Tester had knocked him out of a few other tournments i believe(artosis talks about this with idra in his interview after the tournment).
In General you also need to look at the rankings of players in tournment brackets(and who ends up in what pool) it has a large effect on the out come of the tournment.
On August 21 2010 02:04 dogabutila wrote:
TeWy - Play zerg for a month and watch your elo plummet. Play terran and watch it skyrocket past your protoss high ezpz. Then come back and tell us zerg isn't weak.
A while i agree Tewy does not have the most sound logic, This Statement does not prove a whole lot for a few reasons, first Terran Play more or less like every other RTS even made(my 50 year old father could play terran not because their are face roll but because it plays like C&C 95), playing zerg is a completely different game, when compared to Protoss and Terran.
For those poeple who say look at Idra crazy record, as "Proof that zerg is not UP"
Assumption: (ONLY) In High diamond you play poeple with a simlar ELO in matchmaking games.
Idra practices with his team and other korean players, So his Elo(and Matchmaking ranking(MMR) for that matter) are artifically lower than his skill level because he has only played ~110 NA ladder games. As apposed to other Great players who have played 200-300 games on the NA ladder. So Idra win percentage is a combination of a couple things first he is a great player, second he is most likely not playing competion close to his level of play in the majority of his games.
Note: 600 point Terran plat player take with a grain of salt.
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On August 21 2010 02:53 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 02:51 pwnasaurus wrote:On August 21 2010 02:43 silencesc wrote:On August 21 2010 02:04 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:59 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:52 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh... Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG.. Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot. I think I got your point. The reason why Zergs win most of the tournaments is because they're the better players. But the fact that they don't win them all proofs that there are balance issues, otherwise the Zerg players, as "obvious" better players, would win them all. This proofs without a shadow of doubt that Zerg is the weakest race and should get buffed. Thanks for enlightening me with your flawless logic. Your logic is just as bad if you think protoss is UP because they didnt make it out of their group stage in 1 tournament. Move along young one. Wait. How can you say that that logic is flawed? Do you really think Hasu is worse of a technical player than Dimaga or IdrA? Of course not. At that level, everyone has perfect timing and micro. If not a single Protoss got out of group, then there is a flaw with the race. Terran bio armies rape gateway armies, and heavy robo isn't cost effective vs 50 min marines and a couple marauders. Why don't you respond ot arguments instead of just dismissing them out of hand and being patronizing, you ass. Yes. I don't think anyone would disagree that IdrA is simply a better player. Oh, so that's why he got raped in the HDH, thanks for clarifying.
Idra is the better player and the Zerg players do tend to be better than the others, but thats only because they have to be to compete with Terran. However your point about protoss losing to Terran brings up the idea that its possible that Terran is overpowered rather than Zerg being underpowered or even Protoss being underpowered. However, this is nothing new as its been relatively common knowledge nowadays that Terran is OP. In the old days Zerg used to be UP but I don't hear it as much anymore.
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EPT
