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I have found a few problems with Zerglings.
1. They are too big.
2. Their T3 Adrenaline upgrade is too mediocre
3. Their AI is god awful
1. Their size is just too large, which means less zerglings are able to get in hits, and they do their little dance until one zergling dies, then another one takes it's place. I've found situations where I try to break walls and I have to manually move my zerglings a tiny spec to the left or right so I can fit 1 more in to get in some attacks. It's quite annoying. They are still excellent at surrounding units though, but the don't get in enough dps because of their size. I would rather have them be smaller in size and take a few extra damage from splash. They also royally suck at taking out buildings because of this. Remember how quickly a pack of lings could take down a barracks? Good luck doing that in Sc2.
2. Getting their T3 upgrade almost feels like a huge gas sink. I don't even bother getting it unless I'm just messing around in a game. Getting weapon or armor upgrades is much more useful.
3. Once again this is due to their size (Somewhat). I constantly find myself in this situation where my zerglings all clump up into a narrow but multi-pathed choke point all trying to impossibly squeeze in to attack. I have to manually lead the others around the other pathways to attack. This almost never happened in starcraft.
I think that zerglings are a part of the whole issue of Zerg being weak at the moment.
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for people sayin lings werent intended to "fight"
i remember in bw, LINGS are the one who did alllllllll the dmg. ultras/lurks were there as sort of meat shields.
+ Show Spoiler + for example, zerg runs lurks up followed by lings. burrow lurks and lings are attackin them. the terran of course runs from the lurks and the lings kill the marines
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On August 21 2010 06:53 Sky.Technique wrote:for people sayin lings werent intended to "fight" i remember in bw, LINGS are the one who did alllllllll the dmg. ultras/lurks were there as sort of meat shields. + Show Spoiler + for example, zerg runs lurks up followed by lings. burrow lurks and lings are attackin them. the terran of course runs from the lurks and the lings kill the marines
this isn't bw though. it's sc2 and that is what we are discussing no?
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Zelniq wrote: actually a good point was brought up..zerglings are too weak vs buildings.
I totally agree with Zelniq on that. In SC2, it seems like 5 lings are the max amount to attack cannons/spine crawlers (I think bunkers are a little bigger), so the DPS of lings is way down compared to BW. Not sure how to balance that, cause splash dmg would be even more potent if lings got even smaller.
Edit: Krohm hit the nail on the head.
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i think zerglings, roaches, and hydras need slight buffs. contrary to the others, i think zergling has an easy fix. buff adrenal glands to grant more attack speed. the late game problem i see is that even w/ the upgrade, the few zerglings that do survive splash dmg etc don't do enough once they get to their location.
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consider what stronger lings would be like with the current inject larva mechanic. yeah. no.
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My only problem with lings are that the adrenaline upgrade is very late and not too effective. Other than that I really love them and use them all the time, maybe to make them more useful and give that upgrade more ompf would be to make it available in lair or slightly more effective at Hive. Again don´t really have a problem with them, except that I don´t think like in BW, Nice finally Hive so I can get the awesome Adrenaline glands upgrade now it´s more like - Meh 200-200 for a pretty mediocre upgrade, i´ll just skip that for the next 10 minutes... LETS GET ULTRA INSTEAD =)
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On August 21 2010 00:47 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 00:40 NukeTheBunnys wrote:
lings were nerfed to make up for the pathing changes. The whole auto surround thing benefits lings much more then almost any other unit. I have the feeling that if lings had the same attack speed ratio as BW they would be OP. I haven't tested it, and even if I did test it I don't feel that I'm qualified to make a decision on balance. In any case, I just remember reading something to this effect a while ago. I think this is a really good point. Still, it seems like lings are too weak at killing buildings, now that they all come with armor, and that's not really affected by the AI change at all.
That doesn't actually play out in reality, though. In BW you'd run units into whatever line and then attack and because of pathing there would be holes around units. Now, everything stays in a huge, tight ball that no melee can penetrate. Similarly, because the ball is so tight, more ranged units can hit a given unit than would be able in BW. This makes melee units in general much weaker in SC2. The auto-surround of melee is already inferior to a manual surround in many cases, so that kind of logic doesn't follow through to actuality.
This particular discrepancy also seems to only exist with marines, not with lings and zealots. This would lead me to believe that the change is something more terran-centric than pathing-centric.
I've long felt that marines strength in the early/mid-game is the reason for many of the anti-terran complaints, so maybe this is related.
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Too weak compare to marines.
with upgrades and air shooting + steam marines look like tier 2 unit at least.
Zealots with charge are also good as well vs marauders in late game both in breaking enemy lines deal and absorb dmg , let alone siege tanks shooting their own.
Zerlgings do nothing after mid game they usless , the only good is upgrading them to banelings but they cost too much gas and their too slow off creep.
both toss and esp terran can rely in end game to zealot marines if hes out of gas and sometimes can win with mass marines medvacs or charge zealots + storm backing up.
Zerglings are just lame .
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Imo, zerglings should have a lair level upgrade to allow them to jump on units/buildings.
Not jump as in reaper jump. Jump as in the first ling to get to the unit has a little jumping animation, and is at the same place as the unit.
Thus for example, if lings attacked a ball of units, you would get the same number of attacking lings as now, attacking from outside the ball, and then an extra one able to attack for each unit on the outside of the ball.
This is probably very unclear, so lets illustrate it with my pain skillz, showing lings fighting a marauder.
![[image loading]](http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6104/lingjump.png)
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Make lings ignore all other unit collision(including other lings, but not buildings), but other units can't ignore them? Tie that in with the speedling upgrade, so zealot walls are still effective and P has time to get forcefields.
Just for the record, I hate the idea.
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On August 21 2010 08:32 morimacil wrote:
Imo, zerglings should have a lair level upgrade to allow them to jump on units/buildings.
Not jump as in reaper jump. Jump as in the first ling to get to the unit has a little jumping animation, and is at the same place as the unit.
Thus for example, if lings attacked a ball of units, you would get the same number of attacking lings as now, attacking from outside the ball, and then an extra one able to attack for each unit on the outside of the ball.
This is probably very unclear, so lets illustrate it with my pain skillz, showing lings fighting a marauder.
This is a really interesting idea. Although there would probably still be issues with defending early game harass and such since the upgrade would involve getting a lair.
Either a) increase the damage/attack speed of lings (make adrenal glands easier to obtain, maybe even more effective?), b) reduce the unit size of lings to allow for more deadly surrounds or c) make early game larva more abundant. A lot of theory-crafting but with some slight changes any one of these could easily improve zerglings.
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On August 21 2010 07:47 Doc Daneeka wrote:
consider what stronger lings would be like with the current inject larva mechanic. yeah. no. So your saying lings would be actually useful midgame? oh no, we can't have that now can we.
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On August 21 2010 09:08 sureshot_ wrote:
This is a really interesting idea. Although there would probably still be issues with defending early game harass and such since the upgrade would involve getting a lair.
Either a) increase the damage/attack speed of lings (make adrenal glands easier to obtain, maybe even more effective?), b) reduce the unit size of lings to allow for more deadly surrounds or c) make early game larva more abundant. A lot of theory-crafting but with some slight changes any one of these could easily improve zerglings.
Well imo, the issue isnt really all that much early game. Lings do pretty fine in the early game, it takes like 20 marines before lings start being cost inefficient, the critical mass doesnt hapen until later on, early on lings do perfectly fine.
Its in the midgame, where stim, combat shield, charge, and bigger 1a-balls are arround that lings start to really struggle.
Lings are not meant to be a counter to hellions, reapers, banelings, and zealots, they are meant to kill stalkers, marauders, small amounts of marines, sentries, and so on.
Roach>zealot>ling>stalker>roach for example seems perfectly fine, but once critical mass of ranged units is achieved, for example here stalkers, then lings become ineffective. This happens around lair level, which is why I think it would be a good place to put the upgrade.
Allowing zerg players to easily make a lot of lings early on, and having them own any unit that you throw at them would be dumb design imo. Lings are not supposed to be able to defend easily against anything at all. Otherwise, there is no strategy involved, you just make lings.
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i remember the days where lings could actually take down cannons in BW... where they could fit between gaps between buildings allowing like 8-10 to actually get around a cannon to ravage it in 3 seconds. now, you're lucky if you can get 4 zerglings attacking a cannon.
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My question is why did Blizzard feel the need to give everything armor? Oh wait, they had to because that's how they set up their "counters" and "terrible terrible damage". Little did they know, they completely gimped Zergling's DPS by a huge amount because of this.
Not only do zerglings deal horrendous DPS, they also can't surround stuff as well. Don't tell me that the AI let's zerglings surround so well. Awesome, because back in BW, it was much better to run your zerglings into the heart of the opponent's army and then attack. Too often do I see many zerglings just running around not able to find a target because it simply cant find an opening to attack. Zealots vs. Zerglings isn't even close now because it's just too hard to get all your zerglings attacking the zealots at the same time.
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zerglings are certainly not a bad unit, but they are a little too crap in the early game.
ur forced to go roaches or something. i think if someone else is getting only T1, u should be able to counter that with only T1.
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On August 21 2010 02:10 Inori wrote:
I'm quite sure that if you buff lings base attack damage/speed, then 6 poll will be unstoppable in ZvP. Although I do agree that Adrenal Glands could be reworked.
and how is it stronger in sc2 compared to BW?
you spend less% of workers by building pool - yes, but enemy has more workers to defend, which make it equal, so now 6 pool is the same as 4 pool, but lings are weaker.
so how would increased ling attack speed be imba if its the same as in broodwar?
Ye it will punish those with 14 gate, so it SHOULD, now 6 pool is suicide, because it just get killed by workers alone...
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On August 21 2010 08:32 morimacil wrote:Imo, zerglings should have a lair level upgrade to allow them to jump on units/buildings. Not jump as in reaper jump. Jump as in the first ling to get to the unit has a little jumping animation, and is at the same place as the unit. Thus for example, if lings attacked a ball of units, you would get the same number of attacking lings as now, attacking from outside the ball, and then an extra one able to attack for each unit on the outside of the ball. This is probably very unclear, so lets illustrate it with my pain skillz, showing lings fighting a marauder.
Lol I have to say that picture is pretty epic.. I award you +1 Internets Sir! 
As for the topic that attack speed upgrade needs to some seriously reworking I'll agree, If I remember right someone was posting about it a while back an showed it in fact only gave you +15%.. which is sad for the cost.
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I'm thinking the jumping idea could work.
It would mean less zerglings running around doing nothing.
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EPT
