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Ling speed and auto-surround only makes it so they play duck-duck-goose around balls quicker. Yippee.
I agree that lings simply feel too weak right now.
I also agree, however, that we might not be using them right quite yet.
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On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert!
Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion.
Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far.
What race won the World Cup? Zerg.
What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg.
What race won the King of the beta? Zerg.
What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg.
How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh...
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On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh...
Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG..
Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. perhaps he should have invested in immortals. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot.
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Zerglings are my fav unit and it pains to see me how they were nerfed from sc1
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I don't play zerg and have thought since beta that adrenal glands needs a buff. It's a joke of an upgrade for how late it comes and how much it costs. Compare the timing and cost of something like stim/charge/blink to adrenal glands and it is laughable.
Also some people have been mentioning zerglings maybe being too big - I kinda think it is a double edged sword. If they were smaller they could get better surrounds - but splash damage would be more effective against them.
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On August 21 2010 01:52 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh... Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG.. Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot.
I think I got your point. The reason why Zergs win most of the tournaments is because they're the better players. But the fact that they don't win them all proofs that there are balance issues, otherwise the Zerg players, as "obvious" better players, would win them all.
This proofs without a shadow of doubt that Zerg is the weakest race and should get buffed.
Thanks for enlightening me with your flawless logic.
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Crack open unit tester lings are still favorable against comparable forces which do not include too many hellions or zealots. They trade way upwards with marauders and stalkers and do just fine against small MM bio balls. Even against thors and archons once you adjust for cost the lings DPS will just tear down the expensive unit. The problem occurs like other posters said, when the death ball's dps:surface area ratio gets too favorable.
I do agree that their game vs. zealots is pretty terrible, especially against 2 gate when your liable to only have a small number of lings.
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On August 21 2010 01:59 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:52 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh... Maybe its because the zerg players played better in those tournaments? How is it that zerg is most likely to win IEM? BEcause idra is the best player in the world perhaps? I think that has something to do with it, not just because hes playing IMBA OP ZERG.. Sorry that your protoss brothers got beat down by marauders. I fail to see how that relates to this thread though. Go complain about your protoss being UP in your own thread. Dont forget to consider how your colossi dont roast enough hydras and roaches and lings in 1 shot. I think I got your point. The reason why Zergs win most of the tournaments is because they're the better players. But the fact that they don't win them all proofs that there are balance issues, otherwise the Zerg players, as "obvious" better players, would win them all. This proofs without a shadow of doubt that Zerg is the weakest race and should get buffed. Thanks for enlightening me with your flawless logic.
Your logic is just as bad if you think protoss is UP because they didnt make it out of their group stage in 1 tournament.
Move along young one.
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TeWy - Play zerg for a month and watch your elo plummet. Play terran and watch it skyrocket past your protoss high ezpz. Then come back and tell us zerg isn't weak.
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On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert! Nice post, thanks for your extraordinary contribution to the discussion. Zerg won pretty much all the biggest tournaments so far. What race won the World Cup? Zerg. What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg. What race won the King of the beta? Zerg. What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg. How can you have the audacity to complain about your race when not ONE SINGLE PROTOSS passed his groupstage in IEM... Why is there not one single thread about that... Why is there no comment about the fact that when Hasuobs, probably the best european protoss, got obliterated by a straightforward marauders/medivacs push of Lucifron he looked jaded and told that he no idea of what he could have done better and what units could counter this terran army... Gosh...
the first 2 were played with completly different patches, the KotB is the only one won by Zerg, and calling it most likely to win, it's just a pathetic argument. In the querterfinals 2 Zergs (the best european and american zerg btw) barely got trough with 3-2, one got roflstomped 3-0, and the other was a TvT. And you're using that tournament as an argument that Zerg is so strong? How pathetic an you get terran-fanboys?
open up craftcup and Zotac cup europe, oh i know, those doesnt count because ther isnt 10000k dollars involved, the zergs just throw those games away because they go for the real money. Srsly...
And if you think hasu is the best European P, you really underestimate Eu protosses I dont say they are taht good overall, but i dont believe Hasu is even top 3 or 5, he dindt deserve to advance, Huk and WR getting eliminated was a shocker but watching the games it was understandable.. And btw there is rage about Protoss getting eliminated, check the LR thread. How can one make arguments out of the clean air and think he's right?
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On August 21 2010 01:37 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:33 TeWy wrote:On August 21 2010 00:27 Vortok wrote:Everyone loves to say that Zerg is underpowered these days. A quick browse through Liquipedia leads me to blame Zerglings. They attack too slow. BW Liquipedia states that the Marine attack cooldown is 15 (7.5 stimmed). Zergling attack speed is 8. 6 with the Hive upgrade. Zealots have a cooldown of 22. So baseline numbers show that Zerglings/Marine is roughly a 2:1 ratio. Zergling/Zealot is around a 3-1 ratio. Marine/Zealot is a roughly 3:2 ratio at base. Looking at SC2, attack cooldowns are all fancy to multiple decimal points. SC2 Zergling is .696 and .587 with Hive upgrade. SC2 Marine is .8608 and .57387 stimmed. SC2 Zealot is at 1.2 Marine/Zealot ratio seems to be around the same. Zerglings are just under getting 2 attacks per Zealot attack instead of just under 3 (and people have noticed that it takes 4 lings per Zealot instead of about 3). Versus Marines where it's supposed to be about 2 for every 1 Marine shot it's closer to being 1 for 1 than it is 2 for 1 and stimmed Marines actually attack faster than cracklings! Whereas in BW it was at 6 vs 7.5, which is a 4:5 ratio. As a side note it seems that stim actually got nerfed slightly in the attack speed buff it gives to Marines, but that's another discussion altogether for various reasons. This inhibits Zerglings in all sorts of other ways (6 pool dying to probes attack moving, anyone?) as the game goes on (defending harass, etc.) since Zerglings are supposed to be a bread and butter unit. Zerg seem to have the hardest trouble with early game antics. Once it gets past that into a macro game it's a lot more stable (late game ZvT mech whining aside). Fixing Zerglings seems to be the best solution. Are other tweaks needed? Of course, the game just came out. All races need tweaks but it is amazingly well-balanced for a launch state. Now sure, SC2 is a different game than BW with different units to make up each race's army, but I can't think of a decent reason why it's like this as it effects the early game so much unless A: Liquipedia is wrong (doubtful) or B: some Blizzard dev accidentally changed it/missed it while tweaking various numbers. I tried to keep that as fact-based as possible. If I missed something or am completely off feel free to correct me. For ease of reference for the lazy people: BW http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/MarineSC2 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealothttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerglinghttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine Zerg has won pretty much ALL the BIG tournaments so far, and it seems that the next one (IEM) will be won by a Zerg as well. It is amazing how easily so many people can be brainwashed by sheer repetition of a groundless assertion "Zerg is weak". Extremely flawed argument alert!
ok this is sort of pissing me off. you fuckin idiots who say "oh zerg wins all the time. look at idra hes doin awesome!!11!1 zErG is fine l2p nubs"
you are all morons, you guys dont even CONSIDER that idra is just way fuckin better then the other kids he plays. u just all assume tlo = huk = dimaga = idra = tester, they all same skilll level, and ppl only win cuz X race is better then Z race. seroiusly kids, fuckin think before you post
idra and dimaga are JUST BETTER PLAYERS ATM THEN THE OTHER PLAYERS, JESUS CHRIST
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I'm not going to chime in on racial balance, but I'm not sure if you can single out a unit as the reason Zerg is weak. It's the same flawed argument as people complaining about Terran, and then focusing on the Marauder.
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On August 21 2010 01:20 MoreFasho wrote:
I actually think 6 pools are ridiculously easy to defend, but the defensive point shouldn't be once the guys are in your mineral line.
I generally play zerg, which makes a preemptive wall-off to protect against a 6-pool pretty difficult. Defending with workers is one's only alternative. Scouting very fast can tell me a 6-pool is coming, but there still won't be time to get a spawning pool and units up on most maps.
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On August 21 2010 01:46 TeWy wrote:
What race won the World Cup? Zerg.
What race won the Kaspersky Cup? Zerg.
What race won the King of the beta? Zerg.
What race will most likely win IEM ? Zerg.
So by standard tier rankings among many competitive games (aka, use tourney results, not ladder/popular usage), Zerg is currently the best race in the game.
I'd say that four is an incredibly small sample size. I'd also refer you to the infamous words of a SSBM player: Tires don exits.
The Zerg for 2 of those 4 tournaments is Idra (easily one of the most skilled SC2 players in the world right now, and he would be winning even if he picked T or P for SC2) and the fact that he, along with many top players (Z or non), have made comments about the general balance of the races at high level play seems to point to a different conclusion than what you seem to be indicating.
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On August 21 2010 00:47 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 00:40 NukeTheBunnys wrote:
lings were nerfed to make up for the pathing changes. The whole auto surround thing benefits lings much more then almost any other unit. I have the feeling that if lings had the same attack speed ratio as BW they would be OP. I haven't tested it, and even if I did test it I don't feel that I'm qualified to make a decision on balance. In any case, I just remember reading something to this effect a while ago. autosurround is nice and all in the early game, but once the enemy gets a decent number of units autosurround is useless. and since most people attack with a decent number of units, and rarely will lings surround that ball, zerglings arnt useful in real games. sure autosurround helps lings, but clumping of units does not. cancels eachother out. I think a ling buff would do wonders. early zeal rushes or reapers/hellions harass would be a tad more reasonable to defend against with lings, rather than forcing spince crawlers and roaches every damn time.
However much I love my 2 gate, I agree. Roaches seem like the only counter to fast zealots/rines. seems kind of ridiculous that Zerg has to get tier 1.5 with gas to beat a really early tier 1 rush.
That said, i think buffing lings would make 6 or 8 pools the norm, as they could rape everything that early in the game. Which would further disrupt balance. Maybe giving them more health would help?
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I think the largest issue with Zerg is the fact that queens are too good. Zerg T1 units have been horribly gimped in order to prevent zerg players from easily winning with spawn-larva assisted all-ins.
The motivation behind the reduction of quality in lings is rather obvious; if you can have 32 of them when your opponent has maybe 6 zealots something needs to change. Unfortunately, rather than nerfing the queen they nerfed the zergling. The meat of zerg was instantly reduced to mostly a jerk-reaction defense unit and backstab-against-players-who-can't-wall unit. I'm not trying to imply that zerglings are not worth buildling -- I nearly always build them in the masses even still. My goal here is to try and make zerg more fun to play while preserving balance.
Honestly I'd like to see lings reverted to sc1 stats (attack speed and movement speed) and spawn larva gimped (reduction in larva provided - maybe t2/t3 upgrades to spawn 1 additional larva). This would allow/compel zerg to take early thirds (or just additional in-base hatcheries) and provide a efficient mechanism for defense. The most grievous issue with zerg now is that they're boring -- any early offense is likely to put you behind given that it's just too easy to stop early game harass since they've over-nerfed lings due to their all-in potential. There's no reason we can't seek to make zerg more bw-like, because y'know... it was fun.
Maybe I'm lame, but encouraging the zerg to expand all over the map and play greedily at the start is more fun to play and enjoyable to watch than the current 2-base macro-turtle into hydra or muta into t3 on 3 bases.
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On August 21 2010 02:17 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:20 MoreFasho wrote:
I actually think 6 pools are ridiculously easy to defend, but the defensive point shouldn't be once the guys are in your mineral line. I generally play zerg, which makes a preemptive wall-off to protect against a 6-pool pretty difficult. Defending with workers is one's only alternative. Scouting very fast can tell me a 6-pool is coming, but there still won't be time to get a spawning pool and units up on most maps.
I mean it's quite possible that a balance change would affect zvz, might not be able to do 14g 14 pool in zvz on a 2 player map anymore, but that's not necessarily bad. I mean it's just as arbitrary to complain that right now you can't 15 hatch 14 pool on steppes because of a 14g 14 pool, don't expect build orders to be unchanged by patchees.
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I think at one point this topic was about zerglings. If I may go back to that...
TvZ
Yeh, as terran I always pull a fast fac + hellion pressure + rush the igniter upgrade. In my experience 4+ hellions will roast any number of zerglings with proper kiting and kill nearly all workers in 2-3 seconds; alot of it depends on how fast I get them out and how fast/much defenses the zerg gets out.
However, if my early hellions get picked off/my # stays low it's difficult to pull off succesful harass and if roaches pop hellion harass = over.
I mix some into my later mech army so I dunno if zerglings are UP as I don't see them at any point later in the game before my hellions wipe them out. 
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I play Zerg (mid diamond) and think Zerglings are strong as hell. They just don't perform the way they do in BW. Speedling runbys and surround snipes are so powerful when used properly. I honestly feel like they would be too strong if they did any more damage.
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EPT
