On May 05 2011 07:08 hugman wrote: You've backpedaled to saying that a Zerg can spend his income from one base using one Hatchery + Queen, which is true if you don't just build lings and Drones, but it's not a useful statement and this is what you originally replied (to):
This has always been what I'm saying. Sorry if it came across wrong. I'm pretty sure I responded to someone saying you need production from a new hatchery, but maybe I screwed it up.
On May 05 2011 06:29 Marzocchi wrote: That was a great SOTG.
I'd actually like to see Day[9] do two dailies addressing Idra's points:
1) Zerg Scouting Options - What have players done that consistently enable Zerg to scout, with enough time to react?
2) Countering a 200/200 Protoss - I'd realllllllly like Tyler to post some of the game's he's lost to Zerg once he's maxed at 200 so we (or Day9) can see/analyze how to beat a 200/200 Toss.
It would be nice for low level players surely, but Day9 cannot speak about high level play. He doesn't play it, and he refuses to discuss any real issue brought up. That being said, IdrA is entirely correct. Everything he said is fact, it's not debatable at all. Day9 should look for alternative ways for zerg to get ahead. Are there methods to stall pushes? can zerg incorporate more spine crawler pushes into their TVZ/TVP? Should zerg actively hunt down obs/ravens with Muta/Overseer? There's lots of meta game to be worked out.
But the point remains, zerg cannot scout these builds and will be beaten every time, even if they outplay their opponent if the zerg does not guess correctly. There is a significant difference between taking an offensive risk and a defensive risk. A defensive risk leaves you with no offensive opportunities if it fails. An Offensive risk, especially the protoss early pushes can still be pulled back and used to defend in the case of zerg guessing correctly. Zerg cannot take his defensive units and just go win the game, protoss can easily warp in and stall with sentries.
I think IdrA was on to something with his spine crawler push builds, this turns a defensive risk into an offensive one, albeit not a very good one, but it worked out in a number of games I'm sure many people here saw.
I think another issue here is that zerg have options they are not using. We never see contaminate play for instance. Maybe these options are not explored because they are simply not worth it, but I would think the meta game will change some more over time.
Protoss timing pushes are absolutely deadly. and if you sit at home with units specifically designed to mess up those timings or lock down units all together, I don't see how fair complaints can be made. An overseer is cheap compared to the units a single colossus will kill in battle for instance.
Tyler addresses this beautifully. SC is about how far you're willing to go to mitigate risks. You can put infinity spine crawlers and queens and be safe (hey spanishiwa!) or you can choose to cut corners and eventually be owned by a counter no matter how much of a better player you are. See Jinro vs MorroW on TSL3.
Again, you're missing the point. yes, you can win some games taking defensive risks, but it is factually imbalanced if the only way you can defened a risk you cannot possibly see coming is taking a risk when the opponent has many options, most branching, while they can scout you. If I see a bunch of spine crawlers coming up and I'm Protoss, I'm going to make that zerg hate his life because he wasted a bunch of minerals that will not help him.
If the zerg lets a 40hp probe see what he built, I'd consider the protoss advantage is deserved.
Obs? Hallucinated Phoenix? It is viable to get an observer out early. Lets not even begin to discuss zergs signification detection problems.
He can't get an early obs and go "oh shit, he built spines and is playing defensively, let me go back in time and forge expand". See, risks.
wtf? i cant see a situation where you are fucked over by this realization that "he built spines and is playing defensively"
If the zerg lets a 40hp probe see what he built, I'd consider the protoss advantage is deserved.
ur not serious are you? you hide a probe in the fog of war and then check for an expansion. No expansion? defend ez into ggnore.
On May 05 2011 06:02 Soap wrote: I think no one brought this up in the cast out of respect for Tyler, but IdrA says he and ret are the only zergs winning tournaments because they are supposed to, out of their experience from BW. Tyler was his major rival, now plays the ez race, and he isn't winning shit. Case closed.
Zerg don't have many good players. This game is less than an year old and someone managed to switch from terran and become top 5 zerg in the world sans Korea, there are new players in the rise, I have to concur that this balance discussion is just silly and leads to nothing but Blizzard going back and forth with the game under "pro players" blessings.
Also, what is this "Zergs aren't winning shit" mentality...
Then when Zergs win, it's because they were either 10 times better or because the opponent played like shit...
HOW do we win this argument? If they lose, it's because their race is absolute trash, if they win, it's because their opponents were absolute trash compared to them.
Currently, every race is even on GSL wins, the tournament win rate for foreign races is about 50% for every race. What the fuck do we have to go on? IdrA made an if/then argument that doesn't work because if it were true, Zergs should never win a fucking game unless they're 10 times better than their opponents... So are the win rates close because every Zerg player just happens to be that much better and the race is holding them back just enough to keep it even?
I'm at a loss here.
I think IdrA was talking about tournament wins, rather than winrates in paticular. And he's right if you look specifically at the facts only, he and ret are the only two Zerg foreigners to take a major foreign tournament in a long time. Both of them were 2 of the top 3 best BW foreigners when they switched to SC2.
Obviously IdrA overexaggerates his complaints, but unlike both MVP or MC, his points are backed up by current tournament results, which until we can actually gauge skill effectively, are the only indicator of balance, because we have to assume they're players of equal skill spread evenly throughout the 3 races.
he makes the great point that if you look at zergs who win tournaments, they are super amazing players.
IdrA and Ret were by far the most skilled players in those tournaments. and NesTea is the best zerg in the world, so of course he won a GSL. also FruitDealer was something special when he won GSL 1. yet if you look at Ts or Ps that have won tournaments, they simply arent as skilled.
If you look at players like HuK NaNiwa SeleCT KiWiKaKi, sure they are some of the best players in the world, but if you look at their history before sc2, its hard to imagine them having any success compared to people like IdrA or Ret, who were two of the best foriegn BW players. and what do these players i listed have in common? they dont play zerg. Name one zerg who won a tournament that ISNT an exceptional gamer/player. Thats right, you cant
Nestea from what i know was pretty bad at BW, he had no real success.
Do you know how fucking good you had to be at BW to even be on a pro team? And then to actually play televised games??
To elaborate on Nestea's abilities, in BW Nestea was Zergbong (right?) and a very good member of a 2v2 team with the mantoss himself (Reach). He was also a coach. In 1v1 he didn't do spectacularly (not S level, certainly) but as long as 2v2 existed he was pretty useful for KTF.
wtf? i cant see a situation where you are fucked over by this realization that "he built spines and is playing defensively"
Well, if you go 2gate robo (the fastest practical possible observer) seeing a hard defensive posture puts you pretty far behind. You need a desperation expansion at that point, since otherwise you're going to be out-econ'd hard.
On May 05 2011 07:00 SgtDK wrote: Days9 point was kind of vague, I agree with his ideas but it would've been easier if they came to a clear consensus on what imbalance is.
They did. Imbalance is when all 3 races do not have an equal chance of winning at the start of a game (given equal skill levels).
The points are clear: 1. Zerg does not have efficient early game scouting (that Toss and especially Terran does). 2. Zerg does not have strong early defenses that can compensate for that lack of intel. Terran/Toss can wall off against zerg until or have more robust units that can await the tech reveal in comparison.
Idra argues ONE of these two things needs to change.
It's not a complicated argument at all - Day9 could not produce an answer, except to explore further.
1) What is this magical low-tech Protoss scouting unit that can see inside a base? I assume you're not referring to an Observer or Phoenix or Hallucination since if you're waiting that long, Zerg can of course morph and Overseer next to the opposing base and fly it in.
2) Queens + Creep are strong early defenses that work regardless of the tech reveal. Besides, if you're going two base against one base, you can afford to invest in more defensive measures.
My fervent hope is that due to some epic drama bomb this thread one day catches up to the Korean Music thread and becomes the new most ludicrous thread on TL.
On May 05 2011 07:22 prplhz wrote: Is there absolutely no way to download the mp3 in chrome? I'd kinda like to listen to this show some time.
if it doesn't work at all, you can google search for "wget" and download it manually via the URL of the mp3. it's a command-line application that lets you download everything to your computer. i havent used it in a while so you'd have to check for instructions on how to use it on the apps website, but it should be pretty easy (something like "wget.exe episodelinkontheinternet targetlocationonyourcomputer" and just wait for it to download.
On May 05 2011 06:29 Marzocchi wrote: That was a great SOTG.
I'd actually like to see Day[9] do two dailies addressing Idra's points:
1) Zerg Scouting Options - What have players done that consistently enable Zerg to scout, with enough time to react?
2) Countering a 200/200 Protoss - I'd realllllllly like Tyler to post some of the game's he's lost to Zerg once he's maxed at 200 so we (or Day9) can see/analyze how to beat a 200/200 Toss.
It would be nice for low level players surely, but Day9 cannot speak about high level play. He doesn't play it, and he refuses to discuss any real issue brought up. That being said, IdrA is entirely correct. Everything he said is fact, it's not debatable at all. Day9 should look for alternative ways for zerg to get ahead. Are there methods to stall pushes? can zerg incorporate more spine crawler pushes into their TVZ/TVP? Should zerg actively hunt down obs/ravens with Muta/Overseer? There's lots of meta game to be worked out.
But the point remains, zerg cannot scout these builds and will be beaten every time, even if they outplay their opponent if the zerg does not guess correctly. There is a significant difference between taking an offensive risk and a defensive risk. A defensive risk leaves you with no offensive opportunities if it fails. An Offensive risk, especially the protoss early pushes can still be pulled back and used to defend in the case of zerg guessing correctly. Zerg cannot take his defensive units and just go win the game, protoss can easily warp in and stall with sentries.
I think IdrA was on to something with his spine crawler push builds, this turns a defensive risk into an offensive one, albeit not a very good one, but it worked out in a number of games I'm sure many people here saw.
I think another issue here is that zerg have options they are not using. We never see contaminate play for instance. Maybe these options are not explored because they are simply not worth it, but I would think the meta game will change some more over time.
Protoss timing pushes are absolutely deadly. and if you sit at home with units specifically designed to mess up those timings or lock down units all together, I don't see how fair complaints can be made. An overseer is cheap compared to the units a single colossus will kill in battle for instance.
Tyler addresses this beautifully. SC is about how far you're willing to go to mitigate risks. You can put infinity spine crawlers and queens and be safe (hey spanishiwa!) or you can choose to cut corners and eventually be owned by a counter no matter how much of a better player you are. See Jinro vs MorroW on TSL3.
Again, you're missing the point. yes, you can win some games taking defensive risks, but it is factually imbalanced if the only way you can defened a risk you cannot possibly see coming is taking a risk when the opponent has many options, most branching, while they can scout you. If I see a bunch of spine crawlers coming up and I'm Protoss, I'm going to make that zerg hate his life because he wasted a bunch of minerals that will not help him.
If the zerg lets a 40hp probe see what he built, I'd consider the protoss advantage is deserved.
Obs? Hallucinated Phoenix? It is viable to get an observer out early. Lets not even begin to discuss zergs signification detection problems.
He can't get an early obs and go "oh shit, he built spines and is playing defensively, let me go back in time and forge expand". See, risks.
Protoss have learned to expand fast without risk thanks to cannons and sentries. They do not HAVE to scout early. No zerg viable aggressive build hits before hallucinate is finished. Even if a zerg is going for a mass-drop all-in, it happens just as hallu finishes. Other builds like roach rushes that hit just as the expo is finishing are all stoppable without scouting if the protoss micros well enough and has cannons up (which they should if they don't want to bother scouting)
On May 05 2011 07:02 Warrior Madness wrote: I always face palm when people say Idra's zvp is 10x better than it was 2 months ago. So he's been doing risky hydra builds, roach ling all ins, playing risky drop plays and he's 10x better now?... Yeah right. A solid build is a build that results in you being slightly behind, even, or slighty ahead despite what the opponent is doing, and even if he sees it coming.
The reason why this roach, hydra, early drop build is not solid is because you have to make a HUGE invesment (drop), and you MUST do damage to the protoss economy or you lose. And it's easily counterable when they see it coming. Sure you can drop 1 ovie full of roaches at his main mineral line, and at his nat while at the same time pushing towards his third. It works, if the toss doesn't know how to defend. A smart toss never ever makes zealots, he makes cannons... One cannon will make it really hard to drop. Two cannons will make it impossible to drop. So let's say that happens, the toss pulls his probes quickly enough (though he won't need to with 2 cannons), he expects it so he drops some cannons i.e. He's playing on terminus TE. The zerg's spire becomes late, the toss has secured his third, and he's got 3 collosus out now. You lose.
It is not a solid strategy.
Okay, so a Protoss has to make a minor sacrifice to nullify a drop play and you just highlighted how he would do that.
So why can't a Zerg just plant some Spinecrawlers and make a fucking Queen? It's the same exact thing as what you just said the Protoss would do to nullify a drop play...
If you cut corners, there's a risk involved, if the Protoss decided to cut a corner, he'd get punished by IdrA's play, if he made those cannons, he'd be alright is what you're saying. Why does this not also apply for Zerg?
He said the protoss should cut zealots for cannons, you're saying the zerg should cut drones for various defenses, there is a very large difference there.
On May 05 2011 07:20 awesomoecalypse wrote: Yeah, pretty much every gateway unit sucks balls against Hydras. The problem with most hydra pushes is they either:
Don't really commit to them, in the sense of making a lot of them or Come too later (i.e. after Colossi are on the field) or Don't have a good followup planned
But if you dedicate to a good, strong 2 base timing push before Colossi come out, it is a fucking nightmare for Toss to deal with...especially if you focus down their anti-air, and prepare for a mutalisk followup. Any Toss teching to Colossi, while hoping to hold off a hydra timing push with nothing but Gateway units, is gonna be extremely resource strapped as is, and excessive cannoning will not be an option. If Zerg can kill all the Toss stalkers with their attack, and times it properly so it hits when P has tons of resources tied up in Colossi tech but no actual Colossi on the field, surviving an immediate tech switch to mutas is nearly impossible.
Forcefields and guardian shield with a superior / near equal stalker count can combat mass hydra, and basically it all boilds down to the fact that hydras come way too late / the window is too small outside of a nydus allinn to ever try to end the game before collossi becomes a factor in the game.
Also if the protoss just forcefields his ramp, pulls his probes / entire army back and waits for 2-3 collossii then no amount of hydra is going to help you kill the inevidable 4 gate / 1 robo collossii push coming your way. Spire simply takes too long to make and all the gas whent to hydra lulz. If you start the game going straight for hydras you may also loose because of 4 gate. Siege tanks / blueflame hellions also do great against a ball of hydras.
On May 05 2011 06:29 Marzocchi wrote: That was a great SOTG.
I'd actually like to see Day[9] do two dailies addressing Idra's points:
1) Zerg Scouting Options - What have players done that consistently enable Zerg to scout, with enough time to react?
2) Countering a 200/200 Protoss - I'd realllllllly like Tyler to post some of the game's he's lost to Zerg once he's maxed at 200 so we (or Day9) can see/analyze how to beat a 200/200 Toss.
It would be nice for low level players surely, but Day9 cannot speak about high level play. He doesn't play it, and he refuses to discuss any real issue brought up. That being said, IdrA is entirely correct. Everything he said is fact, it's not debatable at all. Day9 should look for alternative ways for zerg to get ahead. Are there methods to stall pushes? can zerg incorporate more spine crawler pushes into their TVZ/TVP? Should zerg actively hunt down obs/ravens with Muta/Overseer? There's lots of meta game to be worked out.
But the point remains, zerg cannot scout these builds and will be beaten every time, even if they outplay their opponent if the zerg does not guess correctly. There is a significant difference between taking an offensive risk and a defensive risk. A defensive risk leaves you with no offensive opportunities if it fails. An Offensive risk, especially the protoss early pushes can still be pulled back and used to defend in the case of zerg guessing correctly. Zerg cannot take his defensive units and just go win the game, protoss can easily warp in and stall with sentries.
I think IdrA was on to something with his spine crawler push builds, this turns a defensive risk into an offensive one, albeit not a very good one, but it worked out in a number of games I'm sure many people here saw.
I think another issue here is that zerg have options they are not using. We never see contaminate play for instance. Maybe these options are not explored because they are simply not worth it, but I would think the meta game will change some more over time.
Protoss timing pushes are absolutely deadly. and if you sit at home with units specifically designed to mess up those timings or lock down units all together, I don't see how fair complaints can be made. An overseer is cheap compared to the units a single colossus will kill in battle for instance.
Tyler addresses this beautifully. SC is about how far you're willing to go to mitigate risks. You can put infinity spine crawlers and queens and be safe (hey spanishiwa!) or you can choose to cut corners and eventually be owned by a counter no matter how much of a better player you are. See Jinro vs MorroW on TSL3.
Again, you're missing the point. yes, you can win some games taking defensive risks, but it is factually imbalanced if the only way you can defened a risk you cannot possibly see coming is taking a risk when the opponent has many options, most branching, while they can scout you. If I see a bunch of spine crawlers coming up and I'm Protoss, I'm going to make that zerg hate his life because he wasted a bunch of minerals that will not help him.
If the zerg lets a 40hp probe see what he built, I'd consider the protoss advantage is deserved.
Obs? Hallucinated Phoenix? It is viable to get an observer out early. Lets not even begin to discuss zergs signification detection problems.
He can't get an early obs and go "oh shit, he built spines and is playing defensively, let me go back in time and forge expand". See, risks.
Protoss have learned to expand fast without risk thanks to cannons and sentries. They do not HAVE to scout early. No zerg viable aggressive build hits before hallucinate is finished. Even if a zerg is going for a mass-drop all-in, it happens just as hallu finishes. Other builds like roach rushes that hit just as the expo is finishing are all stoppable without scouting if the protoss micros well enough and has cannons up (which they should if they don't want to bother scouting)
I highlighted the important parts.
I'm going to make that zerg hate his life because he wasted a bunch of minerals that will not help him.
Protoss have learned to expand fast without risk thanks to cannons and sentries.
On May 05 2011 06:02 Soap wrote: I think no one brought this up in the cast out of respect for Tyler, but IdrA says he and ret are the only zergs winning tournaments because they are supposed to, out of their experience from BW. Tyler was his major rival, now plays the ez race, and he isn't winning shit. Case closed.
Zerg don't have many good players. This game is less than an year old and someone managed to switch from terran and become top 5 zerg in the world sans Korea, there are new players in the rise, I have to concur that this balance discussion is just silly and leads to nothing but Blizzard going back and forth with the game under "pro players" blessings.
Also, what is this "Zergs aren't winning shit" mentality...
Then when Zergs win, it's because they were either 10 times better or because the opponent played like shit...
HOW do we win this argument? If they lose, it's because their race is absolute trash, if they win, it's because their opponents were absolute trash compared to them.
Currently, every race is even on GSL wins, the tournament win rate for foreign races is about 50% for every race. What the fuck do we have to go on? IdrA made an if/then argument that doesn't work because if it were true, Zergs should never win a fucking game unless they're 10 times better than their opponents... So are the win rates close because every Zerg player just happens to be that much better and the race is holding them back just enough to keep it even?
I'm at a loss here.
I think IdrA was talking about tournament wins, rather than winrates in paticular. And he's right if you look specifically at the facts only, he and ret are the only two Zerg foreigners to take a major foreign tournament in a long time. Both of them were 2 of the top 3 best BW foreigners when they switched to SC2.
Obviously IdrA overexaggerates his complaints, but unlike both MVP or MC, his points are backed up by current tournament results, which until we can actually gauge skill effectively, are the only indicator of balance, because we have to assume they're players of equal skill spread evenly throughout the 3 races.
he makes the great point that if you look at zergs who win tournaments, they are super amazing players.
IdrA and Ret were by far the most skilled players in those tournaments. and NesTea is the best zerg in the world, so of course he won a GSL. also FruitDealer was something special when he won GSL 1. yet if you look at Ts or Ps that have won tournaments, they simply arent as skilled.
If you look at players like HuK NaNiwa SeleCT KiWiKaKi, sure they are some of the best players in the world, but if you look at their history before sc2, its hard to imagine them having any success compared to people like IdrA or Ret, who were two of the best foriegn BW players. and what do these players i listed have in common? they dont play zerg. Name one zerg who won a tournament that ISNT an exceptional gamer/player. Thats right, you cant
Actually, Naniwa and Kiwi were both extremely good WC3 players. And how can you immediately dismiss them as "unexceptional?" MC and MVP are much, much more skilled than Fruitdealer and I think even IdrA would admit that; after GSL he said he really disliked Fruitdealer's play. He also had some issues with Nestea's play at some points.
i know, i came from from wc3 before sc2.
But NaNiwa and KiWi were nothing in wc3 compared to what IdrA is to BW. IdrA was one of, if not the, top foreigner. IdrA's skill in BW is far and beyond Nani or KiWi's skill in wc3
On May 05 2011 07:25 billyX333 wrote: wtf? i cant see a situation where you are fucked over by this realization that "he built spines and is playing defensively"
Protoss used to do a 2gate robo sort of build against Zerg, with a quick obs. We stopped because too often, we would fly our obs over to your base, and see like 50 drones. Needless to say, 50 drones vs 1base, that is quite bad yes? After that we tended to die to mutas while we tried to secure our natural. Or anything else really, our economy was just too far behind.
Anyways, fast forward to today. Now, we always FE. No more worrying about 50 drones, we can just make 50 probes hoho! Downside is we have no obs. Oh well. That's how we used to get fucked over by making an obs and seeing spines and tons of drones.
On May 05 2011 07:22 prplhz wrote: Is there absolutely no way to download the mp3 in chrome? I'd kinda like to listen to this show some time.
if it doesn't work at all, you can google search for "wget" and download it manually via the URL of the mp3. it's a command-line application that lets you download everything to your computer. i havent used it in a while so you'd have to check for instructions on how to use it on the apps website, but it should be pretty easy (something like "wget.exe episodelinkontheinternet targetlocationonyourcomputer" and just wait for it to download.
That said, I can download it fine in Chrome. Does right-click-save-as not work for you prplhz?
Oh oh discussionz. For what it was worth, liked the show JP. Plus 20k, woot!
On May 05 2011 07:02 Warrior Madness wrote: I always face palm when people say Idra's zvp is 10x better than it was 2 months ago. So he's been doing risky hydra builds, roach ling all ins, playing risky drop plays and he's 10x better now?... Yeah right. A solid build is a build that results in you being slightly behind, even, or slighty ahead despite what the opponent is doing, and even if he sees it coming.
The reason why this roach, hydra, early drop build is not solid is because you have to make a HUGE invesment (drop), and you MUST do damage to the protoss economy or you lose. And it's easily counterable when they see it coming. Sure you can drop 1 ovie full of roaches at his main mineral line, and at his nat while at the same time pushing towards his third. It works, if the toss doesn't know how to defend. A smart toss never ever makes zealots, he makes cannons... One cannon will make it really hard to drop. Two cannons will make it impossible to drop. So let's say that happens, the toss pulls his probes quickly enough (though he won't need to with 2 cannons), he expects it so he drops some cannons i.e. He's playing on terminus TE. The zerg's spire becomes late, the toss has secured his third, and he's got 3 collosus out now. You lose.
It is not a solid strategy.
Okay, so a Protoss has to make a minor sacrifice to nullify a drop play and you just highlighted how he would do that.
So why can't a Zerg just plant some Spinecrawlers and make a fucking Queen? It's the same exact thing as what you just said the Protoss would do to nullify a drop play...
If you cut corners, there's a risk involved, if the Protoss decided to cut a corner, he'd get punished by IdrA's play, if he made those cannons, he'd be alright is what you're saying. Why does this not also apply for Zerg?
He said the protoss should cut zealots for cannons, you're saying the zerg should cut drones for various defenses, there is a very large difference there.
A Zerg would have to cut drones because that's all they ever fucking make. The Protoss could just as easily cut probes for those cannons, in fact, he probably was technically already making zealots in place of 2 probes worth of minerals, the suggestion was just for Protoss to make a cannon instead.
So instead of making drones, making fucking defenses, the Protoss in the example was already making defenses, he was just switching to a different kind. You're making no defenses and then saying there's a large difference, well of course there is...
a lot of people saying day9 lost the argument i think he was just done talking and had said what he wanted to say and did not feel it would be productive if he continued especially without specific game examples
i think incontrol presented his argument better and i dont think tyler just got flustered by the end and said what came to his mind as he was pissed off but i dont think his argument is invalid because of it
On May 05 2011 07:25 billyX333 wrote: wtf? i cant see a situation where you are fucked over by this realization that "he built spines and is playing defensively"
Protoss used to do a 2gate robo sort of build against Zerg, with a quick obs. We stopped because too often, we would fly our obs over to your base, and see like 50 drones. Needless to say, 50 drones vs 1base, that is quite bad yes? After that we tended to die to mutas while we tried to secure our natural. Or anything else really, our economy was just too far behind.
Anyways, fast forward to today. Now, we always FE. No more worrying about 50 drones, we can just make 50 probes hoho! Downside is we have no obs. Oh well. That's how we used to get fucked over by making an obs and seeing spines and tons of drones.
yeah, i wasn't aware we were bringing up hypothetical beta games into the discussion about early game scouting problems.
On May 05 2011 07:14 Yaotzin wrote: Well if his results are better then his ZvP is better.
That's not true at all. And that's got nothing to do with Idra's argument. If actionjesus gets good results that doesn't mean his zvx is good. It jsut means he cheeses and people don't expect it coming.
There's nothing wrong with allins when your opponent is greedy. If IdrA has a great success rate with that roach/ling allin against 3gate sentry expand, then 3gate sentry expand is simply flawed and must be redone. Until it is, he should continue allinning it and picking up easy wins.
Well first off the 3 gate expand is not flawed. It's relatively easy to defend a roach ling all in as long as you do the classic 3 gate expand. With the forge at the nat making a simcity. The reason why tosses have been putting their forges inside their bases for a while now is to hide their tech paths for as long as possible. And also, zerg has been doing BLIND all ins and it's been working here and there. He was not reacting when he did two roach all ins in a recetn bo3. He got lucky that the toss was doing a nexus cancel into a 4 gate in the last game.
It's crucial for the metagame that Zerg players DO allin, and punch holes in T/P builds. Otherwise T/P players can get away with greediness and hurt the Zerg later. There really isn't enough of this. So many P/T players do hilariously greedy builds against Zergs - probably because Zerg players have a strong tendency to be greedy passive players themselves. They almost always get away with it. Maybe you would have less to worry about if you gave your opponents a little more to worry about? That's what IdrA has been doing and hey presto, it's working.
Roach all ins have been popping up in the first place BECAUSE of the nexus cancel into 4 gates. It was a response to the nexus cancel trend. And the only way it'll effect zvp is that tosses will just make better simcities with their 3 gates.
Well no shit. That applies to every drop ever. If you spend money on something you can't throw it away.
You don't seem to understand how much of an investment it is for zergs. If the drops don't do anything they are in BIG trouble. See kiwi vs Idra game 5.
If it's so easy to defend why do people keep dying to it? You realise it's far harder to defend drops than execute them, right? You realise Protoss units are horrible in small numbers, which makes it seriously difficult to split our army to defend numerous drops?
Woohooo a cannon how scary. Drop 4 roaches and kill it. Drop 4 roaches/hydras in 3 places and poke our front. It's seriously fucking hard to defend that.
Who keeps dying from it? You can't just look at results, pay attention to the games themsevles. The tosses that lose aren't defending it properly, or are unexpecting the drops at all. Look how easily kiwikaki defended Idra's drops when he laid cannons down. You split your army, lay soem cannons, warp in units. I don't know how you can possibly say that its easier to defend than to drop. I play both z and p. P is THE defensive race ffs. You make cannons, and drops don't work afterwards. Drop 4 roaches and kill a cannon? Alright... Run probes away immediately? Warp in stalkers? Or leave stalkers there in the first place? If you drop hydras it's even more of an investment.
And if there are two cannons in the min line, you can't drop unless it's some sort of doom drop.
On May 05 2011 07:25 billyX333 wrote: wtf? i cant see a situation where you are fucked over by this realization that "he built spines and is playing defensively"
Protoss used to do a 2gate robo sort of build against Zerg, with a quick obs. We stopped because too often, we would fly our obs over to your base, and see like 50 drones. Needless to say, 50 drones vs 1base, that is quite bad yes? After that we tended to die to mutas while we tried to secure our natural. Or anything else really, our economy was just too far behind.
Anyways, fast forward to today. Now, we always FE. No more worrying about 50 drones, we can just make 50 probes hoho! Downside is we have no obs. Oh well. That's how we used to get fucked over by making an obs and seeing spines and tons of drones.
yeah, i wasn't aware we were bringing up hypothetical beta games into the discussion about early game scouting problems.
That's what happened when roach range got buffed but anyway.
You said you couldn't see how a realisation that they built spines and were whoring drones could fuck you over. That was how. The correct course of action was to simply not get the obs, and FE instead (at the time we had no idea how, roach rushes were owning us). There was nothing we could do once we had committed to the obs and found out they were just droning.
That Tyler-Inc debacle is pretty lulzy, all that went was
Was: "chose to not participate" - wait, they had a choice? does liquid hate eg? Should be: "declined the invite" - liquid, y u dont play?
Then Inc argues that was just the PR guy doing PR, Tyler says that he sucks at PR then by trying to argue in the forum, I agree with Tyler but the whole thing is a non-issue
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