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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:37 Warrior Madness wrote: And if there are two cannons in the min line, you can't drop unless it's some sort of doom drop. Or banelings. Or three overlords' worth of units, which is hardly a doom drop. | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:42 Yaotzin wrote: That's what happened when roach range got buffed but anyway. You said you couldn't see how a realisation that they built spines and were whoring drones could fuck you over. That was how. The correct course of action was to simply not get the obs, and FE instead (at the time we had no idea how, roach rushes were owning us). There was nothing we could do once we had committed to the obs and found out they were just droning. why on earth would you bring up a terrible opening that no body uses to attempt to create a counter argument? | ||
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rO_Or
United States306 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:45 billyX333 wrote: why on earth would you bring up a terrible opening that no body uses to attempt to create a counter argument? Some Zerg or other was whining about their inability to scout the Protoss main without an unthinkable investment such as fast Overseer. Yaotzin pointed out that Protoss can't scout the Zerg main either, without a potentially ruinous investment like fast obs. Scouting information is expensive in that part of the game. | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:48 Severedevil wrote: Some Zerg or other was whining about their inability to scout the Protoss main without an unthinkable investment such as fast Overseer. Yaotzin pointed out that Protoss can't scout the Zerg main either, without a potentially ruinous investment like fast obs. Scouting information is expensive in that part of the game. What type of information do you need to survive that phase of the game that requires 1 base robo into fast obs? | ||
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shadowboxer
United States224 Posts
Although Idra played BW also, he's competing in SC2 now. Yes, there might eventually be a way to force a build from your opponent, but eventually sucks for competitors playing Zerg and it sucks for esports. I doubt top Zergs just scream imbalance and then give up their ZvP practice. I'm sure they're practicing numerous builds more than any of us even play, but they're still losing to standard builds from P and T due to lack of scouting. Overall, Day9 has a great outlook on imbalance, but the problem is it's easy to have that outlook when you're not competing for a living. Every Zerg at top level is complaining about the same things idra complains about, it just means less to non-zergs because he supposedly has a habit of calling things imbalanced. A lot of Zergs won't call it flat out imbalance, but they're definitely saying that in certain situations, Zerg can feel really hopeless. | ||
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cronican
Canada424 Posts
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SgtDK
United States54 Posts
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Soap
Brazil1546 Posts
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:48 Severedevil wrote: Some Zerg or other was whining about their inability to scout the Protoss main without an unthinkable investment such as fast Overseer. Yaotzin pointed out that Protoss can't scout the Zerg main either, without a potentially ruinous investment like fast obs. Scouting information is expensive in that part of the game. The difference is that Protoss has builds that are more all-purpose and don't require as much adaptation as Zerg does (in general). | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:32 L3g3nd_ wrote: i know, i came from from wc3 before sc2. But NaNiwa and KiWi were nothing in wc3 compared to what IdrA is to BW. IdrA was one of, if not the, top foreigner. IdrA's skill in BW is far and beyond Nani or KiWi's skill in wc3 This is a completely fruitless discussion. Without knowing how much time Naniwa and KiWi practice the game, and how efficient their methods are, we cannot possibly say anything about whether or not IdrA "ought to be" more skilled, and thus winning against them. Also, as for KiWi, he clearly has quite a knack for learning new things, and is very talented. I mean, so is IdrA, but his claims that "I was in Korea, ergo, I deserve to win" is just preposterous. Players who have been playing for less time, but perhaps have other advantages like passion, dedication, attitude, etc., routinely outperform players who have more time commited to a game. This happens in everything from sports to chess to academics, and so on. I understand that this isn't his entire argument, I am only addressing the particular comments about this topic. | ||
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zaii
Guam2611 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:46 rO_Or wrote: It's sad how many people arguing in here have clearly never even tried to play as zerg but still feel justified to post as experts on the subject. TL forums are starting to look like the Bnet forums. this post! wheres the love ppl! | ||
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rO_Or
United States306 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:48 Severedevil wrote: Some Zerg or other was whining about their inability to scout the Protoss main without an unthinkable investment such as fast Overseer. Yaotzin pointed out that Protoss can't scout the Zerg main either, without a potentially ruinous investment like fast obs. Scouting information is expensive in that part of the game. Have you ever even tried to research hallucinate or do you even know what that upgrade is? Your welcome for the pro advice here buddy. 100/100 for quicker/more efficient scouting than an obs, hardly a "potentially ruinous investment". | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:57 rO_Or wrote: Have you ever even tried to research hallucinate or do you even know what that upgrade is? Your welcome for the pro advice here buddy. 100/100 for quicker/more efficient scouting than an obs, hardly a "potentially ruinous investment". If you're skipping Warp Tech, or building a second Cybernetics Core, just to get Hallucination in the relevant time frame? Yes, that's a potentially ruinous investment. If you're going Warp --> Hallucination, that doesn't apply since Hallucination certainly won't be ready to scout the Zerg any sooner than Overseers are ready to scout you. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:52 SgtDK wrote: Tyler Inc got pretty heated. I'm glad Tyler kept his cool when incontrol blew up. It's pretty hard to keep your cool when your opponent's arguments are flat out incorrect but they continue repeating them anyway. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:37 Warrior Madness wrote: That's not true at all. And that's got nothing to do with Idra's argument. If actionjesus gets good results that doesn't mean his zvx is good. It jsut means he cheeses and people don't expect it coming. If actionjesus wins tournaments by 6pooling then he's figured out something totally awesome, and his zvx is indeed good. You don't seem to understand how much of an investment it is for zergs. If the drops don't do anything they are in BIG trouble. See kiwi vs Idra game 5. It's 300/300. That's like 3 medivacs. Yes, early drops are a big investment, but don't pretend it's unusually so for Zerg. Who keeps dying from it? You can't just look at results, pay attention to the games themsevles. The tosses that lose aren't defending it properly, or are unexpecting the drops at all. Look how easily kiwikaki defended Idra's drops when he laid cannons down. You split your army, lay soem cannons, warp in units. I don't know how you can possibly say that its easier to defend than to drop. I play both z and p. P is THE defensive race ffs. You make cannons, and drops don't work afterwards. Er, ask any pro? Drops are far, far easier to execute than to defend. Rather amazed anyone would disagree with that. Dropping requires a couple of shift clicks. Defending it well takes 400apm. Drop 4 roaches and kill a cannon? Alright... Run probes away immediately? Warp in stalkers? Or leave stalkers there in the first place? If you drop hydras it's even more of an investment. And if there are two cannons in the min line, you can't drop unless it's some sort of doom drop. You seem to overrate cannons a little. If the toss splits his army up beforehand just attack the front. So you think it's easy to pull probes from 2 mineral lines, warp in stalkers (gosh I hope my gates aren't in cooldown), and make sure I have sufficient army to win each fight cost effectively. Oh, and forcefield my front while you poke it. Okaay. Maybe you should try the grass on the other side sometime. You'll see it isn't nearly as green as it looks. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:49 billyX333 wrote: What type of information do you need to survive that phase of the game that requires 1 base robo into fast obs? None. We didn't know that. We thought we needed immortals for roach rushes. Maybe you don't actually need the information you want either, you just need to figure out a build that can defend whatever they throw at you and still be economically strong. That takes time to do, and it would naturally take longer for Zerg due to their larva design. Proclaiming, this early, that such a build simply doesn't exist, is ridiculous IMO. | ||
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Kich
United States339 Posts
On May 05 2011 05:52 KristianJS wrote: I have to say, listening to the argument between Idra and Day9, Idra was completely convincing and Day9 had no real counter. Idra's fundamental point was: Zerg can't scout and there's no build that counters everything, so at best you're reduced to flipping coins when guessing what build the opponent is doing. It's a perfectly simple, understandable argument. Day9 was saying stuff like "I think there are a lot of things not explored" but that doesn't even make any difference, zerg would just have more possible coinflips to respond with at most. He had no meaningful counter. I guess it comes down to whether or not the claim that zerg can't scout is completely true. And well, I'm inclined to believe Idra since he is one of the best zergs in the world.... The problem with saying that Zerg can't scout is that it is inherently untrue--a single marine, even a few marines, can't kill an unspeeded overlord from seeing most of someone's base before dying. This is evident by Idra himself in his own stream that he displayed throughout today. A zergling or two running up a ramp to scout the front can actually see a significant portion of someone's base. In fact, throughout the entirety of today Idra commentating his stream he could accurately predict their build and unit composition most of the time just off of seeing a few units and knowing some timings. Which is something Day9 actually recommended to him and something he dismissed, despite doing it in every game he's ever played and effectively used that knowledge to win time and time again. Furthermore, as people have mentioned, the fact that Zerg's can so easily reproduce and their economy is so much better than other races, tech switching is something they can do on a whim, if they had perfect scouting (whatever that means, as if it isn't just as easy to stop an observer from hitting your base and scans prevent valuable mules from being used and are only temporary (and hardly see as much as an observer)) then each opponent would essentially be facing armies perfectly sculpted to defeating their army every game all the time, this can't happen. They can scout, they do scout, do you play zerg? Have you genuinely played every single one of your games completely void of any information as to what the opponent is doing? Day9 even pointed out that when the first attack occurs you can see their unit composition--presumably with an easily placed zergling outside their base or overlords around the perimeter of the map in the event of a banshee. Idra's claim was that by then the attack comes and you roll over and die, Day9 pointed out that that's not true and Idra immediately tried to reiterate that it was, despite that it is an objectively untrue statement. This is where the conversation ended, it was abundantly clear that it was going to descend into a "But I'm right." sort of back and forth and, as Sean stated, such discussion isn't actual balance discussion but venting. Idra is pissed that he occasionally loses to cheese--everyone does, shit happens, that's it. Sometimes someone playing risky wins, that's inherent when considering Risk VS Reward. And obviously there's no build that counters everything, no race has a build that counters everything, and it also takes going into what it is that is meant by "everything"--something that Idra never actually went into because you know, you can't. That's what Sean meant by this vagueness. To what is this build being created to stop? Banshee pressure, 2 rax all ins, proxy 2 gate, 4 gate, void / phoenix harass? How early is the early game? When is it that you can't actually scout? Is it in the early game or the mid-game? Zerg's can scout early game with drones and overlords so it can't be that, it has to be the mid-game, but everyone can scout in the mid-game they all have tools to do that, so which is it? Is it that zerg can't scout between the point where they finish their wall and when you get an overseer? Why is this problematic? No one can scout in that situation except for a Terran who burns a scan, would this actually help? I watched Idra defend a 4 marine / 1 hellion push. He mentioned that he made too many lings and now couldn't be aggressive--I guess I don't understand why this is an issue, he defended a 300 mineral push with about ~350-400 minerals worth of units. What makes you think you can be aggressive after this? How is he so crippled over the loss of 300 minerals that you think you could do damage afterwards? Idra established map control with his lings, which is the best you could hope for. This whole idea that zerg is grossly underpowered is asinine and worthless venting...people are hopping on this bandwagon because idra said it. Someone could make an equally asinine and meaningless claim like "BLAR! Protoss is underpowered in the early game because Zerg can make roaches which cost half as much as stalkers and can produce units faster than we can! How can we possibly beat Zerg if they can build 2 roaches to our 1 stalker and overrun us with cheap efficient units?!" It doesn't actually make sense and isn't a legitimate claim. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On May 05 2011 07:51 cronican wrote: 100 pages of "discussion" about this episode of SOTG. A new record? On the bright side, we are quickly approaching 1000 pages for this epic thread. One day in the future, the internet archeologists of the future TL.net will venture back to this thread and start taking samples of these posts. Like the ice cores extracted from the arctic regions, these posts will be a gauge of these tumultuous times. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 05 2011 08:06 Yaotzin wrote: None. We didn't know that. We thought we needed immortals for roach rushes. Maybe you don't actually need the information you want either, you just need to figure out a build that can defend whatever they throw at you and still be economically strong. That takes time to do, and it would naturally take longer for Zerg due to their larva design. Proclaiming, this early, that such a build simply doesn't exist, is ridiculous IMO. You can also pick a general all purpose opening that has a lot of variations and potential for changes, and design it specifically to handle a certain limited amount of builds your opponent does that you are able to scout for, such as fast expansion. Then, check to see if they are doing it, if not, apply one of those variations etc. There are plenty of things you can scout for as zerg: does he have more than 2-3 sentries? If so, he's not going DT's or air play early on. Does he have a lot of zealots? Then he's likely teching to something dangerous. While you can't see for sure what he might be doing, you can narrow down potential builds by making inferences based on what you can see, and you can attempt to force the game in certain directions. Make a gas steal a standard for you, for example, then you know your opponent won't be going fast stargate or DT's. He might still get them, but they won't be super fast, you'll have time to get overseers. Worried about a 4 gate? Send in two overlords into his base from two different directions at the proper timing, he'll only have one stalker, maybe 2 at most. He won't stop the scout. You can also get a good expectation of a four gate if you gas steal AND check his expansion, for example. Worried that he'll cancel the expo and then 4 gate you anyway? Pool some larva and get an overlord in position to make a run, and get overlord speed. Yeah, it's not certain or easy all the time, but zerg does indeed have the tools available. | ||
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