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On April 28 2011 02:41 RedusK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 02:13 Jibba wrote:On April 28 2011 02:11 RedusK wrote:
I was a little disappointed that Tyler didn't elaborate on what these builds that crush 4 gate are. He's saying that it's too bad that the patch is catering to the lower leagues unable to deal with 4 gate but then doesn't proceed to explain to these lower leagues what those anti-4 gate builds are.
Seems like a missed opportunity to me, he had a clear chance to improve the situation by explaining in detail to the thousands of lower leagues who listen to the show how to deal with it but then didn't.
I'm in high diamond and the only thing I personally see on ladder beating a well-executed 4 gate is another 4 gate that just takes advantage of being on the ramp and getting better arcs. I'm not saying an answer to that doesn't exist, just that I'd love to know what it is. His primary job is to win games. Somewhere down the list, maybe between 100-200, is to educate people on SotG. You miss my point. It would be in Tyler's best interest if people in the lower leagues understood how to stop 4 gate since then Blizzard may be less inclined to patch it and then he wouldn't have to redo all his builds. Obviously it's not as if in reality Tyler explaining this on sotg would make Blizzard not patch Warp Tech, but I'm just saying it was a bit of a missed opportunity. I also don't think Tyler's "job" on sotg is to win games. He's not playing on sotg, he's talking. And I was personally wishing he'd elaborated further on those strats.
You missed his point. Tyler is a professional SC2 player. His job is to play SC2. His job is not to teach you how to play SC2. Even if he lost absolutely nothing other than time by revealing a strat, you shouldn't be disappointed that he didn't. Rather, you should be happy that there are people who do share their wealth of knowledge. For that matter, there are various threads here and elsewhere discussing several builds which are effective at stopping 4-gates.
Or, you could make one yourself. Once upon a time, starcraft was a game where people did think things out for themselves. At that time, theorycrafting was half the fun of the game. These days people only seem to try to think about game design when making balance arguments.
On April 28 2011 02:55 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 02:11 RedusK wrote:
I was a little disappointed that Tyler didn't elaborate on what these builds that crush 4 gate are. He's saying that it's too bad that the patch is catering to the lower leagues unable to deal with 4 gate but then doesn't proceed to explain to these lower leagues what those anti-4 gate builds are.
Seems like a missed opportunity to me, he had a clear chance to improve the situation by explaining in detail to the thousands of lower leagues who listen to the show how to deal with it but then didn't.
I'm in high diamond and the only thing I personally see on ladder beating a well-executed 4 gate is another 4 gate that just takes advantage of being on the ramp and getting better arcs. I'm not saying an answer to that doesn't exist, just that I'd love to know what it is. He didn't elaborate on it because its a bunch of shit. Normally Tyler argues his points very cogently, but I have to say on this one he is being very narrow and simple-minded. The matchup is far too complicated for even some master's players to really understand and THAT is a problem for a company/balance team that has an interest in making their game fun and entertaining. While I personally enjoy PvP and don't 4-gate, I'm not naive enough to ignore the fact that blizzard wants to promote some variety in a bland matchup. I also recognize that these so called "builds that crush 4-gate" are easy to scout and put you at disadvantage immediately in other, easy to recognize, areas. The few that can hold 4-gate that aren't extremely easy to scout, are not reliable enough to be standard. I just think its expecting alot out of the community figure PvP out when people like Tyler who dedicate their lives to this game haven't even figured out how to beat one build the matchup in over a year. Having said all that, I'm in agreement that it is stupid to fundamentally change the race to solve one problem that may be solvable through simpler means. Blizzard's complete reasoning is not exactly transparent on this one yet. The only reason I could think of for them changing 4-gate at a fundamental level would be so the strength of the build wouldn't be solely determined by maps (e.g. 4-gate or die on scrap station, but impossible to 4 gate on metalopolis... something like that).
Feel free to disagree with Tyler about PvP. However, I don't think you're going to get very many people to agree with you if your argument is that Tyler hasn't thought this through.
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Thank you State of the Game for all of your hard work and time you put in to this show to give me many hours of entertainment for free.
Thank you JP for putting it all the together.
Thank you Tyler for being chill.
Thank you Day9 for putting in the time.
Thank you Incontrol for flat out being funny. Oh and keep casting and announcing things.
Thank you all other special guests. Shout out to pain user, artosis, qxc and gretorp.
I listen to the show while driving... probably illegal to drive with one head phone in your ear. Please PM me if you know if that is legal.
I'm always very interested, love to show my support. Thank you again.
/ / Gush.
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At least as bad as people bashing incontrol without a reason are the 10 posts following the guy who bashes to say his hate is stupid (which it is obviously)
Now it takes only one hate post in any thread to derail that thread in a for/against, and this doesn't help either. Just ignore and let the hater be banned.
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Weird, The newest episode is always up right away! :/
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On April 28 2011 03:00 Jerubaal wrote:
I can see the merit in Tyler's arguments in principle, but it seems a little fishy (is the best word I can think of) to say that the current state of affairs is still fine. So, 4 gate isn't impossible to beat, but its presence still results in 75% of PvP games involving a 4 gate. If I'm a Blizzard designer, I'm not sure if I'm ok with that. I'm also not sure if I'm ok with having to blind counter 4 gate in order to stop it. I hate to throw in with the 'well if there was a solution, it would already have been found' (zerg *cough*) group, but, as was pointed out, they had to change the fundamental way Protoss progresses because 4 gate is a fundamental build that takes advantage of fundamental constraints. i.e. if you do anything other than 4 gate, you're almost guaranteed to have less stuff.
I totally agree that Blizzard might not be happy with the match up. They have always said that they want robust matchups where there a number of options. 4 gate and all is varients feel like they limited PVP to 1 base play. I will like any change where we cant get 1 immortal out before the stalker mob hits.
Also, it made PvP really unforgiving and difficult to deal with. At times, its difficult to tell what you did wrong until you watch the replay several times.
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On April 28 2011 02:39 Trawler wrote:
When will ep36 be up?
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It is not like the builds Tyler talks about are secret. Himself said that 5 out of 10 openings on Naniwa vs Cruncher were not 4gate, go check them out. Day[9] even did a whole daily on creating an anti-4gate build.
Now if you want a pro to hold your hand and show how the game should be played, there is coaching for that, not SotG.
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On April 28 2011 03:05 garbanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 02:55 Jayrod wrote:On April 28 2011 02:11 RedusK wrote:
I was a little disappointed that Tyler didn't elaborate on what these builds that crush 4 gate are. He's saying that it's too bad that the patch is catering to the lower leagues unable to deal with 4 gate but then doesn't proceed to explain to these lower leagues what those anti-4 gate builds are.
Seems like a missed opportunity to me, he had a clear chance to improve the situation by explaining in detail to the thousands of lower leagues who listen to the show how to deal with it but then didn't.
I'm in high diamond and the only thing I personally see on ladder beating a well-executed 4 gate is another 4 gate that just takes advantage of being on the ramp and getting better arcs. I'm not saying an answer to that doesn't exist, just that I'd love to know what it is. He didn't elaborate on it because its a bunch of shit. Normally Tyler argues his points very cogently, but I have to say on this one he is being very narrow and simple-minded. The matchup is far too complicated for even some master's players to really understand and THAT is a problem for a company/balance team that has an interest in making their game fun and entertaining. While I personally enjoy PvP and don't 4-gate, I'm not naive enough to ignore the fact that blizzard wants to promote some variety in a bland matchup. I also recognize that these so called "builds that crush 4-gate" are easy to scout and put you at disadvantage immediately in other, easy to recognize, areas. The few that can hold 4-gate that aren't extremely easy to scout, are not reliable enough to be standard. I just think its expecting alot out of the community figure PvP out when people like Tyler who dedicate their lives to this game haven't even figured out how to beat one build the matchup in over a year. Having said all that, I'm in agreement that it is stupid to fundamentally change the race to solve one problem that may be solvable through simpler means. Blizzard's complete reasoning is not exactly transparent on this one yet. The only reason I could think of for them changing 4-gate at a fundamental level would be so the strength of the build wouldn't be solely determined by maps (e.g. 4-gate or die on scrap station, but impossible to 4 gate on metalopolis... something like that). I think Tyler's point was more the fact that progamers have realized that in PvP 4gate isn't necessarily your best chance of winning anymore. The matchup is evolving and progamers are looking for other ways to win. He said that earlier in the game evolution your only choice in PvP was if you were going to do an offensive or defensive 4gate. It's definitely moved past that now, he even cited a few examples. Whether this means that there is actually a standard counter to 4gate or not is somewhat irrelevant. What is relevant is that progamers don't feel like doing a 4gate is the only way to PvP. And since you can assume that progamers are going to pick the strategy that gives them the best chance of winning, then doing a 4gate probably isn't the best (and only chance) of winning anymore.
Korean progamer results beg to differ. They are still having quite amazing results with standard 4gate against each other, and it's a staple part of MC's pvp lineup that wins more than it fails regardless of who he plays against.
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On April 28 2011 03:11 Soliduok wrote:
In about 10 hours ago, the link will be posted on every page starting 6 or 7 pages ago.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 28 2011 03:05 garbanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 02:55 Jayrod wrote:On April 28 2011 02:11 RedusK wrote:
I was a little disappointed that Tyler didn't elaborate on what these builds that crush 4 gate are. He's saying that it's too bad that the patch is catering to the lower leagues unable to deal with 4 gate but then doesn't proceed to explain to these lower leagues what those anti-4 gate builds are.
Seems like a missed opportunity to me, he had a clear chance to improve the situation by explaining in detail to the thousands of lower leagues who listen to the show how to deal with it but then didn't.
I'm in high diamond and the only thing I personally see on ladder beating a well-executed 4 gate is another 4 gate that just takes advantage of being on the ramp and getting better arcs. I'm not saying an answer to that doesn't exist, just that I'd love to know what it is. He didn't elaborate on it because its a bunch of shit. Normally Tyler argues his points very cogently, but I have to say on this one he is being very narrow and simple-minded. The matchup is far too complicated for even some master's players to really understand and THAT is a problem for a company/balance team that has an interest in making their game fun and entertaining. While I personally enjoy PvP and don't 4-gate, I'm not naive enough to ignore the fact that blizzard wants to promote some variety in a bland matchup. I also recognize that these so called "builds that crush 4-gate" are easy to scout and put you at disadvantage immediately in other, easy to recognize, areas. The few that can hold 4-gate that aren't extremely easy to scout, are not reliable enough to be standard. I just think its expecting alot out of the community figure PvP out when people like Tyler who dedicate their lives to this game haven't even figured out how to beat one build the matchup in over a year. Having said all that, I'm in agreement that it is stupid to fundamentally change the race to solve one problem that may be solvable through simpler means. Blizzard's complete reasoning is not exactly transparent on this one yet. The only reason I could think of for them changing 4-gate at a fundamental level would be so the strength of the build wouldn't be solely determined by maps (e.g. 4-gate or die on scrap station, but impossible to 4 gate on metalopolis... something like that). I think Tyler's point was more the fact that progamers have realized that in PvP 4gate isn't necessarily your best chance of winning anymore. The matchup is evolving and progamers are looking for other ways to win. He said that earlier in the game evolution your only choice in PvP was if you were going to do an offensive or defensive 4gate. It's definitely moved past that now, he even cited a few examples. Whether this means that there is actually a standard counter to 4gate or not is somewhat irrelevant. What is relevant is that progamers don't feel like doing a 4gate is the only way to PvP. And since you can assume that progamers are going to pick the strategy that gives them the best chance of winning, then doing a 4gate probably isn't the best (and only chance) of winning anymore.
Yes but this brand new age is now 'I'm going to trick you into thinking I'm 4 gating and then do an economic build so you'll do defensive 4 gate and be screwed' or ' I'm going to trick you into thinking I'm not 4 gating and then 4 gate'. >_>
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On April 28 2011 03:11 Soliduok wrote:
google itmejp + blip.tv and be happy!
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On April 28 2011 03:05 garbanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 02:55 Jayrod wrote:On April 28 2011 02:11 RedusK wrote:
I was a little disappointed that Tyler didn't elaborate on what these builds that crush 4 gate are. He's saying that it's too bad that the patch is catering to the lower leagues unable to deal with 4 gate but then doesn't proceed to explain to these lower leagues what those anti-4 gate builds are.
Seems like a missed opportunity to me, he had a clear chance to improve the situation by explaining in detail to the thousands of lower leagues who listen to the show how to deal with it but then didn't.
I'm in high diamond and the only thing I personally see on ladder beating a well-executed 4 gate is another 4 gate that just takes advantage of being on the ramp and getting better arcs. I'm not saying an answer to that doesn't exist, just that I'd love to know what it is. He didn't elaborate on it because its a bunch of shit. Normally Tyler argues his points very cogently, but I have to say on this one he is being very narrow and simple-minded. The matchup is far too complicated for even some master's players to really understand and THAT is a problem for a company/balance team that has an interest in making their game fun and entertaining. While I personally enjoy PvP and don't 4-gate, I'm not naive enough to ignore the fact that blizzard wants to promote some variety in a bland matchup. I also recognize that these so called "builds that crush 4-gate" are easy to scout and put you at disadvantage immediately in other, easy to recognize, areas. The few that can hold 4-gate that aren't extremely easy to scout, are not reliable enough to be standard. I just think its expecting alot out of the community figure PvP out when people like Tyler who dedicate their lives to this game haven't even figured out how to beat one build the matchup in over a year. Having said all that, I'm in agreement that it is stupid to fundamentally change the race to solve one problem that may be solvable through simpler means. Blizzard's complete reasoning is not exactly transparent on this one yet. The only reason I could think of for them changing 4-gate at a fundamental level would be so the strength of the build wouldn't be solely determined by maps (e.g. 4-gate or die on scrap station, but impossible to 4 gate on metalopolis... something like that). I think Tyler's point was more the fact that progamers have realized that in PvP 4gate isn't necessarily your best chance of winning anymore. The matchup is evolving and progamers are looking for other ways to win. He said that earlier in the game evolution your only choice in PvP was if you were going to do an offensive or defensive 4gate. It's definitely moved past that now, he even cited a few examples. Whether this means that there is actually a standard counter to 4gate or not is somewhat irrelevant. What is relevant is that progamers don't feel like doing a 4gate is the only way to PvP. And since you can assume that progamers are going to pick the strategy that gives them the best chance of winning, then doing a 4gate probably isn't the best (and only chance) of winning anymore.
Although I agree with Tyler that Blizzard should avoid huge patches, I disagree with him on this point. Blizzard has way more data on the match up and the success rate than any of us have. Also, the 4 gate has been running rampent in the GSL for some time. I remember seeing it in season 2. I also think Blizzard did not like the way the match up was shaking out and felt a change could make it more robust. I don't think we should fault them for testing it out.
I think Tyler is really upset that he put all that time into comming up with a relyable counter to the 4 gate and Blizzard pulled the rug out from under him. And we should't be mad at him for that. He puts in as much time to SC2 as I do for my job and I hate having my work undone. Plus, think how gosu he would have looked if he found the build and broke it out in a clutch PvP match up.
But I have total faith in Tyler to find some clutch builds after the new patch. I'm looking forward to shamelessly stealing them for my own play. Because we all want to play safe and relyable.
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On April 28 2011 03:18 Jerubaal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 28 2011 03:05 garbanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 02:55 Jayrod wrote:On April 28 2011 02:11 RedusK wrote:
I was a little disappointed that Tyler didn't elaborate on what these builds that crush 4 gate are. He's saying that it's too bad that the patch is catering to the lower leagues unable to deal with 4 gate but then doesn't proceed to explain to these lower leagues what those anti-4 gate builds are.
Seems like a missed opportunity to me, he had a clear chance to improve the situation by explaining in detail to the thousands of lower leagues who listen to the show how to deal with it but then didn't.
I'm in high diamond and the only thing I personally see on ladder beating a well-executed 4 gate is another 4 gate that just takes advantage of being on the ramp and getting better arcs. I'm not saying an answer to that doesn't exist, just that I'd love to know what it is. He didn't elaborate on it because its a bunch of shit. Normally Tyler argues his points very cogently, but I have to say on this one he is being very narrow and simple-minded. The matchup is far too complicated for even some master's players to really understand and THAT is a problem for a company/balance team that has an interest in making their game fun and entertaining. While I personally enjoy PvP and don't 4-gate, I'm not naive enough to ignore the fact that blizzard wants to promote some variety in a bland matchup. I also recognize that these so called "builds that crush 4-gate" are easy to scout and put you at disadvantage immediately in other, easy to recognize, areas. The few that can hold 4-gate that aren't extremely easy to scout, are not reliable enough to be standard. I just think its expecting alot out of the community figure PvP out when people like Tyler who dedicate their lives to this game haven't even figured out how to beat one build the matchup in over a year. Having said all that, I'm in agreement that it is stupid to fundamentally change the race to solve one problem that may be solvable through simpler means. Blizzard's complete reasoning is not exactly transparent on this one yet. The only reason I could think of for them changing 4-gate at a fundamental level would be so the strength of the build wouldn't be solely determined by maps (e.g. 4-gate or die on scrap station, but impossible to 4 gate on metalopolis... something like that). I think Tyler's point was more the fact that progamers have realized that in PvP 4gate isn't necessarily your best chance of winning anymore. The matchup is evolving and progamers are looking for other ways to win. He said that earlier in the game evolution your only choice in PvP was if you were going to do an offensive or defensive 4gate. It's definitely moved past that now, he even cited a few examples. Whether this means that there is actually a standard counter to 4gate or not is somewhat irrelevant. What is relevant is that progamers don't feel like doing a 4gate is the only way to PvP. And since you can assume that progamers are going to pick the strategy that gives them the best chance of winning, then doing a 4gate probably isn't the best (and only chance) of winning anymore. Yes but this brand new age is now 'I'm going to trick you into thinking I'm 4 gating and then do an economic build so you'll do defensive 4 gate and be screwed' or ' I'm going to trick you into thinking I'm not 4 gating and then 4 gate'. >_>
Haha this :D And to be precise, an "economic build" in PvP is 26 probes instead of 20 xD
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On April 28 2011 03:18 Jerubaal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 28 2011 03:05 garbanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 02:55 Jayrod wrote:On April 28 2011 02:11 RedusK wrote:
I was a little disappointed that Tyler didn't elaborate on what these builds that crush 4 gate are. He's saying that it's too bad that the patch is catering to the lower leagues unable to deal with 4 gate but then doesn't proceed to explain to these lower leagues what those anti-4 gate builds are.
Seems like a missed opportunity to me, he had a clear chance to improve the situation by explaining in detail to the thousands of lower leagues who listen to the show how to deal with it but then didn't.
I'm in high diamond and the only thing I personally see on ladder beating a well-executed 4 gate is another 4 gate that just takes advantage of being on the ramp and getting better arcs. I'm not saying an answer to that doesn't exist, just that I'd love to know what it is. He didn't elaborate on it because its a bunch of shit. Normally Tyler argues his points very cogently, but I have to say on this one he is being very narrow and simple-minded. The matchup is far too complicated for even some master's players to really understand and THAT is a problem for a company/balance team that has an interest in making their game fun and entertaining. While I personally enjoy PvP and don't 4-gate, I'm not naive enough to ignore the fact that blizzard wants to promote some variety in a bland matchup. I also recognize that these so called "builds that crush 4-gate" are easy to scout and put you at disadvantage immediately in other, easy to recognize, areas. The few that can hold 4-gate that aren't extremely easy to scout, are not reliable enough to be standard. I just think its expecting alot out of the community figure PvP out when people like Tyler who dedicate their lives to this game haven't even figured out how to beat one build the matchup in over a year. Having said all that, I'm in agreement that it is stupid to fundamentally change the race to solve one problem that may be solvable through simpler means. Blizzard's complete reasoning is not exactly transparent on this one yet. The only reason I could think of for them changing 4-gate at a fundamental level would be so the strength of the build wouldn't be solely determined by maps (e.g. 4-gate or die on scrap station, but impossible to 4 gate on metalopolis... something like that). I think Tyler's point was more the fact that progamers have realized that in PvP 4gate isn't necessarily your best chance of winning anymore. The matchup is evolving and progamers are looking for other ways to win. He said that earlier in the game evolution your only choice in PvP was if you were going to do an offensive or defensive 4gate. It's definitely moved past that now, he even cited a few examples. Whether this means that there is actually a standard counter to 4gate or not is somewhat irrelevant. What is relevant is that progamers don't feel like doing a 4gate is the only way to PvP. And since you can assume that progamers are going to pick the strategy that gives them the best chance of winning, then doing a 4gate probably isn't the best (and only chance) of winning anymore. Yes but this brand new age is now 'I'm going to trick you into thinking I'm 4 gating and then do an economic build so you'll do defensive 4 gate and be screwed' or ' I'm going to trick you into thinking I'm not 4 gating and then 4 gate'. >_>
Consider BW's ZvZ is the paramount example of RPS matchup, however many years after release  Jaedong pulls a 75% winrate out of his ass, the highest winrate among S-Class players on any matchup. We are shitting on balance before even learning to play the game properly, and Blizzard is jumping on the bandwagon.
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On April 28 2011 03:15 Mailing wrote:
Korean progamer results beg to differ. They are still having quite amazing results with standard 4gate against each other, and it's a staple part of MC's pvp lineup that wins more than it fails regardless of who he plays against.
On April 28 2011 03:18 Jerubaal wrote:
Yes but this brand new age is now 'I'm going to trick you into thinking I'm 4 gating and then do an economic build so you'll do defensive 4 gate and be screwed' or ' I'm going to trick you into thinking I'm not 4 gating and then 4 gate'. >_>
Yeah, I guess you're both right. I think there is still some evolution though, but it might be slower than Blizzard wants and we will never really know if it'll ever reach a satisfactory state.
On April 28 2011 03:26 Plansix wrote:
Although I agree with Tyler that Blizzard should avoid huge patches, I disagree with him on this point. Blizzard has way more data on the match up and the success rate than any of us have. Also, the 4 gate has been running rampent in the GSL for some time. I remember seeing it in season 2. I also think Blizzard did not like the way the match up was shaking out and felt a change could make it more robust. I don't think we should fault them for testing it out.
I think Tyler is really upset that he put all that time into comming up with a relyable counter to the 4 gate and Blizzard pulled the rug out from under him. And we should't be mad at him for that. He puts in as much time to SC2 as I do for my job and I hate having my work undone. Plus, think how gosu he would have looked if he found the build and broke it out in a clutch PvP match up.
But I have total faith in Tyler to find some clutch builds after the new patch. I'm looking forward to shamelessly stealing them for my own play. Because we all want to play safe and relyable.
Maybe he also feels like his counter is going to revolutionize the matchup and get the stability and diversity that Blizzard wants. I think everyone should be upset too, I think we all would want to see the brainchild of Day[9] and Tyler.
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On April 28 2011 03:35 garbanzo wrote:
Maybe he also feels like his counter is going to revolutionize the matchup and get the stability and diversity that Blizzard wants. I think everyone should be upset too, I think we all would want to see the brainchild of Day[9] and Tyler.
It is still coming, from what day9 and tyler said last night, it sounds like it got even stronger too.
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Dedicating my first post to SotG, you guys are hilarious, every single episode you deliver it, last night was no exception, i almost died laughing to the grind stuff. Too bad its just one episode per week, but i can understand why.
Keep it up, much love <3
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apart from getting trolled in the first 5 mins i thought gretorp made a good guest, was a gooood show
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Pasting this from elsewhere:
In 15/28 (54%) groups so far, there have only been 5 games, meaning only a partial round robin and two players playing each other twice. I personally think this deserves some consideration, since this is by far the worst scenario. Where it is especially bad is when there is one great player, two mediocre players, and one terrible player in a group. Good player beats mediocre 1; mediocre 2 beats terrible player; good player beats terrible player; this leaves mediocre 1 having to 2-0 mediocre 2 simply by virtue of where he was in the (unseeded) bracket. This is a serious problem, and is the very definition of a bad tournament structure.
I think I'm going to go more in depth on this later today.
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Dear Geoff "inControl" Robinson,
After all this time that you've made us wait getting that webcam set up on your computer... after all this time HOW DARE YOU make this awesome show even more amazing with your lipped words and your facial expressions. HOW DARE YOU elevate the video podcast to higher heights than ever before.
And worst of all... how DARE you leave us MP3/iPod viewers in the lurch... guessing as to what your incredibly handsome face is doing when people comment on it in the podcast. Cut it out. Stop making this show awesome.
Love,
An adoring incontrol fan
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EPT
