EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 855
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Trawler
Sweden382 Posts
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RedusK
United States37 Posts
On April 28 2011 02:13 Jibba wrote: His primary job is to win games. Somewhere down the list, maybe between 100-200, is to educate people on SotG. You miss my point. It would be in Tyler's best interest if people in the lower leagues understood how to stop 4 gate since then Blizzard may be less inclined to patch it and then he wouldn't have to redo all his builds. Obviously it's not as if in reality Tyler explaining this on sotg would make Blizzard not patch Warp Tech, but I'm just saying it was a bit of a missed opportunity. I also don't think Tyler's "job" on sotg is to win games. He's not playing on sotg, he's talking. And I was personally wishing he'd elaborated further on those strats. | ||
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kedinik
United States352 Posts
On April 28 2011 02:28 Slusher wrote: I liked this weeks episode, but I was really disappointed that they bashed the fake Street Fighter guy for IPL. I don't begrudge them their opinion, but I hope I'm not the only one who loves him lol. Street fighter guy is way too over the top "OH HERRO I ASIAN" for my tastes. But it's not a big deal. | ||
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Joementum
787 Posts
On April 28 2011 02:41 RedusK wrote: You miss my point. It would be in Tyler's best interest if people in the lower leagues understood how to stop 4 gate since then Blizzard may be less inclined to patch it and then he wouldn't have to redo all his builds. Obviously it's not as if in reality Tyler explaining this on sotg would make Blizzard not patch Warp Tech, but I'm just saying it was a bit of a missed opportunity. I also don't think Tyler's "job" on sotg is to win games. He's not playing on sotg, he's talking. And I was personally wishing he'd elaborated further on those strats. You realize those strategies you wish to elaborate are the strategies he'll be using in PvP to beat his opponent, right? You're basically saying, "I wish he would tell us and all his opponents the awesome new strats!" Just wait. You'll see them eventually. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On April 28 2011 02:26 BlueLantern wrote: I don't know why people were so close-minded about the whole concept of MVP thinking T is underpowered, especially on SOTG. The reinforcement aspect of Protoss and Zerg vs. Terran is worlds apart as Zerg is usually the quickest race in terms of being able to get an army to a spot quickly with speedlings, creep spread etc. and Protoss can generally warp in just about anywhere with a small investment in a pylon. Does anyone think a change like increasing medivac speed to where it was before would make a difference? I don't remember if they had done something crazy like outrun mutalisks, but I would surmise that increasing the speed of the best tool T has for mobility with his army might cut down on the trouble players are having with map size. I think that both MVP and Gretorp have a point, in regards to the difficulty of reinforcing and relocating a Terran army, and the problem of having "over-specialized" units that require significant tech investments. At the same time, Terran have the most risk-free, robust scouting capability and harass units, and the most cost-effective static defense in the game. It's hard for me to think of a real reason why Terrans would be unprepared, at least defensively. In terms of scouting, they have a myriad of options, such as scans, cliff-jumping repears, cloaked banshees, cloaked ghosts, not to mention the occasional sacked marine. For detection, they have scans, missile turrets and ravens. And we haven't even gotten to sensor towers, which is like being able to build your own xel naga tower with better range. There really is no reason why Terrans shouldn't know exactly what is happening on the map at all times. Even Zergs have to put their supply at risk by floating around overlords. | ||
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ffdestiny
United States773 Posts
On April 28 2011 02:44 Defacer wrote: I think that both MVP and Gretorp have a point, in regards to the difficulty of reinforcing and relocating a Terran army, and the problem of having "over-specialized" units that require significant tech investments. At the same time, Terran have the most risk-free, robust scouting capability and harass units, and the most cost-effective static defense in the game. It's hard for me to think of a real reason why Terrans would be unprepared, at least defensively. In terms of scouting, they have a myriad of options, such as scans, cliff-jumping repears, cloaked banshees, cloaked ghosts, not to mention the occasional sacked marine. For detection, they have scans, missile turrets and ravens. And we haven't even gotten to sensor towers, which is like being able to build your own xel naga tower with better range. There really is no reason why Terrans shouldn't know exactly what is happening on the map at all times. Even Zergs have to put their supply at risk by floating around overloads. What. User was warned for this post | ||
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Fries
United States124 Posts
On April 28 2011 02:26 BlueLantern wrote: I don't know why people were so close-minded about the whole concept of MVP thinking T is underpowered, especially on SOTG. The reinforcement aspect of Protoss and Zerg vs. Terran is worlds apart as Zerg is usually the quickest race in terms of being able to get an army to a spot quickly with speedlings, creep spread etc. and Protoss can generally warp in just about anywhere with a small investment in a pylon. Does anyone think a change like increasing medivac speed to where it was before would make a difference? I don't remember if they had done something crazy like outrun mutalisks, but I would surmise that increasing the speed of the best tool T has for mobility with his army might cut down on the trouble players are having with map size. The ability to reinforce is definitely a huge benefit to Protoss and Zerg, but it's not as simple as saying one race has this and the other doesn't, therefore they are the weakest or strongest. Aren't T also probably the hardest to break if they get a certain amount of siege tanks up supported by bio? How much more difficult would that be to deal with if T could reinforce as fast as the other two races? There are so many combinations of things to think about when talking about balance that just bringing up one random difference is in itself pretty meaningless. A Zerg could just as easily say Terran is better than Zerg because they can build their buildings wherever they want much easier than a zerg player. A protoss can say a Terran is better because they can completely wall of ramps without blocking their own army because they can lower supply depots at will. None of these make it true that one race is better than the other however. And I myself am not classing one race superior to the other, just pointing out the error in thinking X race is better than Y because of this one specific reason. | ||
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teacash
Canada494 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On April 28 2011 01:52 iNcontroL wrote: On April 28 2011 00:34 teacash wrote: i was pretty disappointed that incontrol (almost definitely) spoiled 3 out of 5 NASL matches that air wednesday night.. JP should prolly mention in the show notes that the spoilers are not only about past aired tourney results, but also unaired results.. though i understand if they'd rather sweep this under the rug.. incontrol should have known better, two weeks into NASL. I guess he was just tired, i'll give the man a break because he works so hard. Felt i needed to mention it though (i know others have too in this thread) No I didn't spoil any match let alone 3 of them. Rainbow is 0-2 I said 0-3 on accident. I was talking about him being winless so far... And no you didn't need to mention it. It's been brought up a few times and I responded on air about my mistake. Not sure why you conspiracy theorists want to believe the worst in me but it doesn't HAVE to continue. okay. i guess my assumption wasn't entirely warranted, i'll concede that. it *felt* to me like it was a slip, knowing that you had recently casted those games. And at the time it seemed like Day9 also assumed you spoiled the results, especially in how he stayed quiet and text-chatted you the correction on the down-low instead of just pointing it out orally. I take your word for it now. But I hope you can also understand why people might reasonably think there were spoilers, rather than just labeling them as melodramatic nit-picking conspiracy theorists. It totally felt like the whole group was aware of what just happened, and were trying to not acknowledge that it just happened. But then again, JP Tyler and Day9 likely didnt know the results anyhow, so it could just have felt that way because they had no idea whether you had spoiled things or not.. Also + Show Spoiler + It wasn't just the comment about rainbow being 0-3, it was also how you commented on whether artosis or grubby would go 0-9. Regardless, thats all I have to say on the issue. cheers | ||
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DoubleLariat
Canada190 Posts
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Tschis
Brazil1511 Posts
what must I do to get your bottle, and signed? XDD ps.: I'm serious | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2594 Posts
I would like to request that posts in the SotG thread get a "hug Geoff" button in the style of Facebook's "like" buttons. I want these posts to all look like this: Just now, HaterJackass362 wrote: OMG, did you hear how inControl did one thing suboptimally during one of the fifty games he cast this week? NASL is such a fucking joke. 127 people have responded to this post by hugging Geoff. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On April 28 2011 02:44 Joementum wrote: You realize those strategies you wish to elaborate are the strategies he'll be using in PvP to beat his opponent, right? You're basically saying, "I wish he would tell us and all his opponents the awesome new strats!" Just wait. You'll see them eventually. The problem is we don't see them. Since the release of 1.3.3 a lot of P players are saying things like "Now all my super secret anti 4 gates strategy that I took months to develop are useless §!!§!!" But where are those strategies ? Why no on use those in any televised matches ? Why the 4 gater wins 80% of the time against the non 4 gater in all streamed tourneys ? The players who are on this trend since 1.3.3 announcement are only kidding themselves. I can imagine some psychological reasons for that, but I've yet to see a valid and concrete reason (a true (and real) non 4 gate that doesn't lose to a 4 gate build would be a good start) | ||
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rastaban
United States2294 Posts
On April 28 2011 02:50 AmericanUmlaut wrote: All the hate directed at iNcontrol is just silly. He's obviously pouring his heart and soul into what he does, and people are hell-bent on finding something, anything, to trash him for. I would like to request that posts in the SotG thread get a "hug Geoff" button in the style of Facebook's "like" buttons. I want these posts to all look like this: LOL, this is hilarious!!! great idea Since it isn't announced yet here is the new episode vod if you are looking for it: http://itmejp.blip.tv/file/5073898/ | ||
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Peekaboo
Canada219 Posts
Omg Gretorp is a great straight man. He truly doesn't get sarcasm. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On April 28 2011 02:11 RedusK wrote: I was a little disappointed that Tyler didn't elaborate on what these builds that crush 4 gate are. He's saying that it's too bad that the patch is catering to the lower leagues unable to deal with 4 gate but then doesn't proceed to explain to these lower leagues what those anti-4 gate builds are. Seems like a missed opportunity to me, he had a clear chance to improve the situation by explaining in detail to the thousands of lower leagues who listen to the show how to deal with it but then didn't. I'm in high diamond and the only thing I personally see on ladder beating a well-executed 4 gate is another 4 gate that just takes advantage of being on the ramp and getting better arcs. I'm not saying an answer to that doesn't exist, just that I'd love to know what it is. He didn't elaborate on it because its a bunch of shit. Normally Tyler argues his points very cogently, but I have to say on this one he is being very narrow and simple-minded. The matchup is far too complicated for even some master's players to really understand and THAT is a problem for a company/balance team that has an interest in making their game fun and entertaining. While I personally enjoy PvP and don't 4-gate, I'm not naive enough to ignore the fact that blizzard wants to promote some variety in a bland matchup. I also recognize that these so called "builds that crush 4-gate" are easy to scout and put you at disadvantage immediately in other, easy to recognize, areas. The few that can hold 4-gate that aren't extremely easy to scout, are not reliable enough to be standard. I just think its expecting alot out of the community figure PvP out when people like Tyler who dedicate their lives to this game haven't even figured out how to beat one build the matchup in over a year. Having said all that, I'm in agreement that it is stupid to fundamentally change the race to solve one problem that may be solvable through simpler means. Blizzard's complete reasoning is not exactly transparent on this one yet. The only reason I could think of for them changing 4-gate at a fundamental level would be so the strength of the build wouldn't be solely determined by maps (e.g. 4-gate or die on scrap station, but impossible to 4 gate on metalopolis... something like that). | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On April 28 2011 01:18 aderum wrote: Listen to the MVP interview and then it makes sense why he think that terran is the weakest race. It's b/c the maps are so big (in GSL), so its ALOT harder to harass these days, which you have to do as Terran. Note that this is not me whining, but i really think they missed to mentioned the real reason why he felt that it was UP. Medivac speed was nerfed some patches ago when people all around used maps like Steppes of War, I guess that kind of shows the danger of balancing around bad maps. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
Feel free to disagree dude. I'm not an expert by any means, but looking at the tools that the Terran has available I don't understand how Terrans can have in issue with mobilizing or composing their army when they have a myriad of ways to scout an opponents base and army, as well as anticipate an attack. I mean, as a Zerg, I would kill to have the capability to just pick any spot on the map and magically look at it at a moments notice. | ||
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Marzocchi
United States58 Posts
Just now, HaterJackass362 wrote: OMG, did you hear how inControl did one thing suboptimally during one of the fifty games he cast this week? NASL is such a fucking joke. 127 people have responded to this post by hugging Geoff. I am continually amazed at people who get upset at Geoff or NASL or SOTG... or MLG or any other league. SOTG is FREE. You pay nothing for it. Yet people complain because maybe there was a spoiler? If you can sift through the hundreds of games available each night and really, really don't want anything to be spoiled... don't watch/listen to a talkshow about the game, the pros and the leagues. NASL is basically free, unless you consider $25 a substantial amount of money... in which case, you probably shouldn't be playing Starcraft and should be prioritizing your life because it's out of whack when $25 is a life or death situation. Absolutely no one can stop anyone else who thinks NASL/Geoff is a joke from starting their own league, working out all the technical kinks and make it flawless. It won't happen - but if you can do that, by all means, do it. But if you aren't willing to and are simply going to complain because it streams at 720 instead of 1080.... or that Geoff is human and makes a crude joke every now and again - get over yourself. Now... if someone could find out when JP is going to upload it to iTunes, I'd be forever grateful. =) | ||
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garbanzo
United States4046 Posts
On April 28 2011 02:55 Jayrod wrote: He didn't elaborate on it because its a bunch of shit. Normally Tyler argues his points very cogently, but I have to say on this one he is being very narrow and simple-minded. The matchup is far too complicated for even some master's players to really understand and THAT is a problem for a company/balance team that has an interest in making their game fun and entertaining. While I personally enjoy PvP and don't 4-gate, I'm not naive enough to ignore the fact that blizzard wants to promote some variety in a bland matchup. I also recognize that these so called "builds that crush 4-gate" are easy to scout and put you at disadvantage immediately in other, easy to recognize, areas. The few that can hold 4-gate that aren't extremely easy to scout, are not reliable enough to be standard. I just think its expecting alot out of the community figure PvP out when people like Tyler who dedicate their lives to this game haven't even figured out how to beat one build the matchup in over a year. Having said all that, I'm in agreement that it is stupid to fundamentally change the race to solve one problem that may be solvable through simpler means. Blizzard's complete reasoning is not exactly transparent on this one yet. The only reason I could think of for them changing 4-gate at a fundamental level would be so the strength of the build wouldn't be solely determined by maps (e.g. 4-gate or die on scrap station, but impossible to 4 gate on metalopolis... something like that). I think Tyler's point was more the fact that progamers have realized that in PvP 4gate isn't necessarily your best chance of winning anymore. The matchup is evolving and progamers are looking for other ways to win. He said that earlier in the game evolution your only choice in PvP was if you were going to do an offensive or defensive 4gate. It's definitely moved past that now, he even cited a few examples. Whether this means that there is actually a standard counter to 4gate or not is somewhat irrelevant. What is relevant is that progamers don't feel like doing a 4gate is the only way to PvP. And since you can assume that progamers are going to pick the strategy that gives them the best chance of winning, then doing a 4gate probably isn't the best (and only chance) of winning anymore. | ||
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