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@Day9 suggesting mass nydus/infestor/overseer:
I don't believe his intent in suggesting this is to eventually have pro-level Zergs go mass infestor/overseer/nydus in tournaments, but for us as players to use them in an overabundance, so we as players can become more familiar with the tools and what they're capable of. In a legitimate strategy it might not be viable to have 15 overseers, but those ten games in a row you -do- make 15 overseers, you learn that a bunch of changelings can block a ramp, or you can't stop gateway > warp gate conversions with corruption, or other useful things that are still applicable with 2-3 overseers, but would have been much harder to figure out if you weren't using 15 overseers.
I believe Day9's goal in suggesting these things is to promote experimentation (as he usually seems to do) rather than suggesting any legitimate pro-level strategies.
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What bothers me a bit about this balance debate is how arbitrary it feels when we've "just" come off of (can you say that?) the beta. The argument the SotG hosts make could be made regardless of how "balanced" the game actually is (what balanced even means is subject onto its own). What if you reverted all the Zerg nerfs, make Roaches 1 supply, 2 armor, reduce Burrow research time to its old 50 secs and on and on? Zergs would start owning Protosses, but the argument you're using now wasn't made in the beta. Reverse the roles the other direction, what if Protoss were killing Zergs during the beta the way they are now, do you think Blizzard wouldn't patch it? Or why weren't you you saying "you should keep dropping his main and killing the Roach Warren so he can't get any Roaches" or something like that during the beta?
Do you see how arbitrary it is now? Why even patch anything? Just throw the units in and be done. Leave it all for the players to figure out, and if one year later they haven't, well then I guess you wasted a year of people's time.
If you refuse to evaluate balance based on the current metagame then how can you say that the current SC2 release is better than any random beta version? Blizzard were patching every week! There was no time to truly explore the balance. Again, my point is, what if you undo every single nerf to the Roach and Zergs start owning everyone, how could you justify nerfing it? Why not try to adapt for 6 months or more?
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I think everybody recognizes that the first half of the show was quite pathetic, which was surprising because I was really looking forward to Artosis on the show, but it didn't pick up until sometime after he was gone.
Anyways that was a great discussion towards the end of the show regarding balance discussion, and it's worth noting that it happened in spite of JP trying to troll the balance whine for the second week in a row, last week was throwing idra the "why doesn't zerg win any tournaments" line, which besides being factually incorrect was obviously just meant to lead idra into his patented balance rage. This week it was his joke that wasn't a joke about protoss always winning tournaments which, again, factually incorrect. This is not even addressing the bigger issue which is that tournament results do not, and have never in any way, reflect balance, and anybody who says otherwise needs to retake middle school statistics.
It might just be that because JP is a bit of a Starcraft noob, and Starcraft noobs in general are frenzied by balance whining, he's at a loss for how to start a more analytical discussion on, er, the "state" of the game.
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So, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I really like that whole "State of the Game" thing that JP and friends do, yeah?
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I enjoy SoTG alot however, over the last couple shows they seem to have been ignorant to the EU scene. Firstly they had basically zero knowledge of Kas (who i consider the #1 EU player of any race), expecting him to be rolled 3-0 by Nada is laughable. Then although they did give credit to DH, they didnt give it the credit deserved. JP praised the NASL too, when infact the difference in production and viewing quality was huge. It was the best sc2 tournament held yet imho, but all they spoke of in detail was Idra's series and not the tournament itself. We all want you guys to be honest, without any bias. Lastly i just wanted to add that anyone can criticize anyone regardless of results or skill, Tyler shouldnt feel the need take a back seat just because he didnt perform as he would like in the TSL and MLG.
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On April 14 2011 03:12 Deference wrote:
So, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I really like that whole "State of the Game" thing that JP and friends do, yeah?
I see what you did there.
+ Show Spoiler +Post a compliment, which will get lost in the sea of criticisms.
I approve.
All feedback is surely appreciated though, I'm sure 
I think what the SotG casters are saying hasn't been said loud enough. It's been drowned out by the QQ and imba talk.
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On April 14 2011 03:26 Aristodemus wrote:
I enjoy SoTG alot however, over the last couple shows they seem to have been ignorant to the EU scene. Firstly they had basically zero knowledge of Kas (who i consider the #1 EU player of any race), expecting him to be rolled 3-0 by Nada is laughable. Then although they did give credit to DH, they didnt give it the credit deserved. JP praised the NASL too, when infact the difference in production and viewing quality was huge. It was the best sc2 tournament held yet imho, but all they spoke of in detail was Idra's series and not the tournament itself. We all want you guys to be honest, without any bias. Lastly i just wanted to add that anyone can criticize anyone regardless of results or skill, Tyler shouldnt feel the need take a back seat just because he didnt perform as he would like in the TSL and MLG.
They called DH the best run sc2 tournament ever. How is that not enough credit?
The big story was Idra and how he just quit. He is a friend of theirs and well its gotta drive them crazy to see such a good player just limit himself because his mindset. You have to remember that all these guys are from the US. It's harder to keep up with the EU scene when they are all as busy as they are and in the NA scene.
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On April 14 2011 02:58 Staboteur wrote:
@Day9 suggesting mass nydus/infestor/overseer:
I don't believe his intent in suggesting this is to eventually have pro-level Zergs go mass infestor/overseer/nydus in tournaments, but for us as players to use them in an overabundance, so we as players can become more familiar with the tools and what they're capable of. In a legitimate strategy it might not be viable to have 15 overseers, but those ten games in a row you -do- make 15 overseers, you learn that a bunch of changelings can block a ramp, or you can't stop gateway > warp gate conversions with corruption, or other useful things that are still applicable with 2-3 overseers, but would have been much harder to figure out if you weren't using 15 overseers.
I believe Day9's goal in suggesting these things is to promote experimentation (as he usually seems to do) rather than suggesting any legitimate pro-level strategies.
No, hes literally suggesting doing that
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On April 14 2011 03:37 jmbthirteen wrote:
The big story was Idra and how he just quit.
Idra didn't quit, he cheesed and lost. Players need to cheese once in a while to keep their opponents honest.
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On April 14 2011 02:39 Lotar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 00:02 Tranqje wrote:
I can understand the point they make that not everything has been figured out. it's most likely true. But the constant, 'just take 7 bases and go mass infestor' or 'just pop nydus worms everywhere' is getting too silly for words. I cringe everytime Day[9] talks about Zerg  Especially lately, when he fantasizes about going mass Overseer for some reason. The Nydus Worm thing ("make more of them!") reminds me of the noob strats that we could hear the pros joke about, back in the beta. Now apparently it's the door that Zergs are reluctant to open, or something.
Day9 said somthing like try crazy stuff it will help your game. Get out of the standard orders and try something new. You may loose the games but will learn from that, and it works.
I did the Protoss funday Monday one with only two warpgates. I came up with a build (one thats probably been out there) its a one gate one robo fast immortal. I delay warpgate until the immortal is out. So I end up with one zealot two stalkers and one immortal then warpgates is being researched. It is soooooo flexible I can move into just about anything after this and I feel really safe.
This is what Day9 wants from players not just novelty week where people do some crazy stuff and then go back to normal.
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On April 14 2011 03:12 Deference wrote:
So, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I really like that whole "State of the Game" thing that JP and friends do, yeah?
Stop derailing this thread and take that stuff to the State of the Game thread.
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On April 14 2011 03:49 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 03:37 jmbthirteen wrote:
The big story was Idra and how he just quit. Idra didn't quit, he cheesed and lost. Players need to cheese once in a while to keep their opponents honest.
Cheesing on Xel-Naga caverns against a player who virtually always scouts very early and has shown a calm head under pressure is quitting, especially when 6pool is the build that least utilizes your strengths.y
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Nydus worms have been used before and no, they aren't very effective.
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On April 14 2011 03:49 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 03:37 jmbthirteen wrote:
The big story was Idra and how he just quit. Idra didn't quit, he cheesed and lost. Players need to cheese once in a while to keep their opponents honest.
He cheesed because he didn't want to actually forefit. He certainly didn't want to play a game so he six pooled and knew it wouldn't work against MC and knew it would be a short game. He quit.
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On April 14 2011 04:00 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 03:49 Nakas wrote:On April 14 2011 03:37 jmbthirteen wrote:
The big story was Idra and how he just quit. Idra didn't quit, he cheesed and lost. Players need to cheese once in a while to keep their opponents honest. Cheesing on Xel-Naga caverns against a player who virtually always scouts very early and has shown a calm head under pressure is quitting, especially when 6pool is the build that least utilizes your strengths.y
And Idra was behind in the series, not a good time for that type of risk. On the Day9 comments regarding play "variety". This is nothing new from him, its what he has always preached. Pretty sure its how you get good at the game (experience). I remember him once noting that he would watch tons of JulyZerg replays and he would see him do outrageous strategies over and over, but the more times he did it the more refined it would get, the more he would learn about that style and its specific weaknesses and strengths. Sometimes those outrageous strategies become not so outrageous when they replace the norm.
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How come Idra gets so much hate for his 6 pool? They have allways said he needs to play more unpredictable, and when he does it its suddently giving up? When he made it work against jinro, he was a genius, when it didnt against mc, its like he threw in the towel.
Also im fucking tired of the "more nydus infestor" to win as zerg. Its been said since beta and nobody have successfully implemented it as a working strategy that I have seen. I have seen people try it, and it ends up in feedbacked infestors or colosus killing them before they can do their damage. The game is maby balanced if you have two skill capped players. But its not the way it works out in practise.
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On April 14 2011 04:16 Pekkz wrote:
How come Idra gets so much hate for his 6 pool? They have allways said he needs to play more unpredictable, and when he does it its suddently giving up? When he made it work against jinro, he was a genius, when it didnt against mc, its like he threw in the towel.
Also im fucking tired of the "more nydus infestor" to win as zerg. Its been said since beta and nobody have successfully implemented it as a working strategy that I have seen. I have seen people try it, and it ends up in feedbacked infestors or colosus killing them before they can do their damage. The game is maby balanced if you have two skill capped players. But its not the way it works out in practise.
Except it didn't work against Jinro...
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On April 14 2011 04:18 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 04:16 Pekkz wrote:
How come Idra gets so much hate for his 6 pool? They have allways said he needs to play more unpredictable, and when he does it its suddently giving up? When he made it work against jinro, he was a genius, when it didnt against mc, its like he threw in the towel.
Also im fucking tired of the "more nydus infestor" to win as zerg. Its been said since beta and nobody have successfully implemented it as a working strategy that I have seen. I have seen people try it, and it ends up in feedbacked infestors or colosus killing them before they can do their damage. The game is maby balanced if you have two skill capped players. But its not the way it works out in practise.
Except it didn't work against Jinro...
My bad, it was incredibly close though, 1 marine with 3 hp? He didnt get any hate for that one and he if it had worked against MC people would have said it was brilliant.
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On April 14 2011 04:22 Pekkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 04:18 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 14 2011 04:16 Pekkz wrote:
How come Idra gets so much hate for his 6 pool? They have allways said he needs to play more unpredictable, and when he does it its suddently giving up? When he made it work against jinro, he was a genius, when it didnt against mc, its like he threw in the towel.
Also im fucking tired of the "more nydus infestor" to win as zerg. Its been said since beta and nobody have successfully implemented it as a working strategy that I have seen. I have seen people try it, and it ends up in feedbacked infestors or colosus killing them before they can do their damage. The game is maby balanced if you have two skill capped players. But its not the way it works out in practise.
Except it didn't work against Jinro... My bad, it was incredibly close though, 1 marine with 3 hp? He didnt get any hate for that one and he if it had worked against MC people would have said it was brilliant.
Jinro didn't wall and it still didn't work.
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Gotta love the logic here: zerg needs to try crazy and unpredictable things that have pretty much no hope of working, but if you try them and lose you're a quitter. And people wonder why zergs are telling em to stfu.
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EPT
