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Mentality is the biggest thing I took home from this cast.
I used to be a big defender of balance whine, but honestly, as and individual player, it has never gotten me anywhere and is just a...cheap...useless....weak(?) excuse to deal with competitive losses.
We've all seen that blaming your losses in such a manner can actually be a detriment to your mental state when approaching this game, and can make you play worse than you really are(Sorry Idra, I still love you but you're better than what you've shown).
I don't believe the game is perfectly balanced, but I'll continue to play Zerg because it's what I like the most. I never thought something like the Serenity Prayer could actually be a useful form of competitive advice, but here we are. Take the game as is, because as a random individual like me, you have absolutely 0 impact on anything game balance related, and it's just going to frustrate and hinder you further by taking the mindset that the results of the game are out of your hands.
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On April 14 2011 00:32 loveeholicce wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 23:59 The KY wrote:On April 13 2011 23:49 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:37 karpo wrote:On April 13 2011 23:33 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating. I want them to just STFU about zerg when there is no zerg on the show. Listening to a one-sided argument about how PvZ is fine for 40 minutes, from protoss players with only a superficial understanding of zerg, was terribly obnoxious. I would have been fine if they had the discussion last week with Idra there, I might have even learned something, instead I got "build 3 control groups of infestors!" and "lolnydus". As a zerg player, the whole discussion was terribly insulting. D9 played zerg in BW and plays random in SC2. It's not like he has no clue on how high level zerg play works. BW is a different game, BW zerg is a different race than SC2 zerg. Does the fact that I played Orcs in WC1 mean I understand Protoss? And yes, I would argue that Day9's understanding of zerg is as superficial as that of the other hosts on last night. They need a zerg player that has actually tried all the crap they they've been theorycrafting about, so they don't have such a dumb one-sided argument again. What podcast did you listen to? I already said, for 40 minutes they weren't theorycrafting about zerg. They were talking about balance, mentality, and the structure of the game itself. Their reasoning for why ZvP was fine was basically "lol 20 infestors" and "lol nydus everywhere", and then a completely retarded comparison to TvZ dropships / scourge.
It really wasn't. Like I said above, fucking deaf and blind. Done with this thread, what's the point in arguing with people who don't even know what they're arguing about and who don't listen.
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On April 14 2011 00:32 loveeholicce wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 23:59 The KY wrote:On April 13 2011 23:49 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:37 karpo wrote:On April 13 2011 23:33 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating. I want them to just STFU about zerg when there is no zerg on the show. Listening to a one-sided argument about how PvZ is fine for 40 minutes, from protoss players with only a superficial understanding of zerg, was terribly obnoxious. I would have been fine if they had the discussion last week with Idra there, I might have even learned something, instead I got "build 3 control groups of infestors!" and "lolnydus". As a zerg player, the whole discussion was terribly insulting. D9 played zerg in BW and plays random in SC2. It's not like he has no clue on how high level zerg play works. BW is a different game, BW zerg is a different race than SC2 zerg. Does the fact that I played Orcs in WC1 mean I understand Protoss? And yes, I would argue that Day9's understanding of zerg is as superficial as that of the other hosts on last night. They need a zerg player that has actually tried all the crap they they've been theorycrafting about, so they don't have such a dumb one-sided argument again. What podcast did you listen to? I already said, for 40 minutes they weren't theorycrafting about zerg. They were talking about balance, mentality, and the structure of the game itself. Their reasoning for why ZvP was fine was basically "lol 20 infestors" and "lol nydus everywhere", and then a completely retarded comparison to TvZ dropships / scourge.
And about how Zerg doesn't play like Terran or Protoss in the respect that you can just mass a ball and roll the other guy's ball of units. I think you missed their points.
And how it's all about multi-tasking and multi-pronged attacks, and anyone who's seen Sen rape Naniwa in the GCPL finals game three, or IdrA own Cruncher in the one TSL game he won knows exactly what we're talking about. That's how Zerg is supposed to be played. Same with + Show Spoiler +Sheth vs. Artosis recently.
The analogy to TvZ in SC1 was that a great player is able to make all of these aggressive tactics work, regardless of how futile you think it may be (scourge easily cancel out dropship play, unless you have skill and balls). In SC2, nydus worms and drops are fantastic ways to abuse Zergs mobility and win games. And if you're hesitant to do them because they could hypothetically be stopped... tough. Anything could be stopped. Do it anyway, and make it work.
Zerg isn't meant to be played the way Protoss or Terran is.
That means that if you're playing Zerg with the expectation to win with the same mindset or strategies of a Protoss or Terran player (and vice-versa), then you're going to have a tough time... and probably lose.
That doesn't mean that Zerg is underpowered or Protoss is OP or anything like that. Heck, the statistics of the games (both all across the board and also just in the top tier) show that all the match-ups have been relatively close to stable and balanced for quite some time now. It just means that some people are obviously uncertain as to how the underlying mechanics of each race work.
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Bit disappointed at JP cutting the last one so short. Also the lack they talked about the Dreamhack event, that had amazing production and some of the games were amazing. They really should have spoken about it more, that tournament did everything right and the production value for a live event was through the roof, better than NASL and that was pre recorded stuff that was then edited over.
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On April 14 2011 00:50 Benjef wrote:
Bit disappointed at JP cutting the last one so short. Also the lack they talked about the Dreamhack event, that had amazing production and some of the games were amazing. They really should have spoken about it more, that tournament did everything right and the production value for a live event was through the roof, better than NASL and that was pre recorded stuff that was then edited over.
Yeah, I agree. I was so impressed with what Dreamhack did and it got me so excited about the possibilities of a good SC2 event. And while watching it I remember looking forward to the SotG tonight to see what they had to say about it. I think it's a really important step in the eSports scene. It really is a shame that IdrA's antics stole the spotlight away from an amazing production.
Edit: Addendum:
I guess it was good that everyone was in general agreement that the event went off flawlessly and with amazing games (with aforementioned exception). Still, I think that they could have raved about it a little more.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
Wow, this cast made me depressed
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On April 14 2011 00:02 Tranqje wrote:
I can understand the point they make that not everything has been figured out. it's most likely true. But the constant, 'just take 7 bases and go mass infestor' or 'just pop nydus worms everywhere' is getting too silly for words.
But that's not what there saying...
There telling players have some bad habits.
There saying make plenty of infestors, casters are stong and take bases and consatrate more heavily on a gas army with very little mineral intake unlike now with 3 bases with 20 drones on each mineral line. As a Zerg people should know what units do damage, gas units. So abuse that fact. As well they are not saying drop nydus worms everywhere and win.
There saying ME (iNcontrol, Tyler, myself) as a Protoss player, with my deathball. I can't move (Protoss bad habit). Why don't you go hit me left and right so I need to run around with my deathball and also drop a Nydus worm in my main so make me run in 3 places and force me to make a mistake and capitalize on it. There implying (my interpratation) see me warp in units, drop I can't warp in anymore so attack at different spots. If protoss becomes mobile, the deathball vanishes, or make me drop cannons out of fear and get take advantage over that fact with killing me while my army is smaller since I inversted so much in static defense.
They also said. Drop a Nydus worm to be able to move over certain points, to link bases, transfer 20 drones with a nydus worm. There pointing out things people could do, have done in BW, but no one is doing anymore and they can't figure out why when you have 2k 1k in the bank.
They mention how certain situations are unwinable, and your goal is to make sure that those situations should never arise (200 food Protoss vs 200 food Zerg in a choke engaging each other might be an exemple, just throwing it out there). It might be that people aren't thinking about that,and people are calling the game imbalanced because of that. There saying it's a tragedy that sometimes, getting a certain unit composition at a right time let's you roll someone when a strategy game should not be all about units, it's about how you use them, and how you get somewhere while forcing other people to make mistakes or not be in a good situation which people don't do enough.
On a personal non SOTG related note. Nydus Worms as a rally point so you can flank protoss from 2 sides of chokes to have more surface area. Use infested marines to make a theoratical over 200 food army, or finding your self at 2 k minerals make some evo chambers with drones, build more combat units and cancel (though I think this idea is probably bad).
PS: Day[9] isn't a bad Zerg, so his insight in the game is valuable, and his mentality is wonderful. He wasn't trolling Idra, he's having a hard time accepting Idra mentality when time and time again the BW changed. Day 9 started playing BW around 1998 when Idra was like 8. I think he suffered the early BW blues more then Idra. (again speculation, please provide factual arguments against I've already spent 50 minutes on this post)
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On April 14 2011 00:32 loveeholicce wrote:
Their reasoning for why ZvP was fine was basically "lol 20 infestors" and "lol nydus everywhere", and then a completely retarded comparison to TvZ dropships / scourge.
If you thought they were trying to justify ZvP with those examples then you missed the point entirely. The emphasis is that in every matchup, there's going to be situations when one race will fall to the other. The late game ZvP example of fighting the deathball is one of those moments and the talk of infestors and nydus worms are just suggestions for dealing with or circumventing those weak moments. No one said ZvP is fine, but people are crying imbalance when we haven't fully explored all the ways to either deal with or avoid those weak moments in a match up.
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
Also, JP really kills the conversation when the conversation finally gets going and makes the conversation so superficial. He constantly asks superficial questions that do not stimulate discussion. Is this something that's on my end, or do others also feel this?
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On April 14 2011 00:17 The KY wrote:In fairness Artosis was whining because he believes, with reason, that Blizzard has some hard on for the Grandmaster league and progamers are going to need to be in it.
Ok I apologize for that, thanks for clarifying.
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On April 14 2011 00:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 00:32 loveeholicce wrote:On April 13 2011 23:59 The KY wrote:On April 13 2011 23:49 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:37 karpo wrote:On April 13 2011 23:33 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating. I want them to just STFU about zerg when there is no zerg on the show. Listening to a one-sided argument about how PvZ is fine for 40 minutes, from protoss players with only a superficial understanding of zerg, was terribly obnoxious. I would have been fine if they had the discussion last week with Idra there, I might have even learned something, instead I got "build 3 control groups of infestors!" and "lolnydus". As a zerg player, the whole discussion was terribly insulting. D9 played zerg in BW and plays random in SC2. It's not like he has no clue on how high level zerg play works. BW is a different game, BW zerg is a different race than SC2 zerg. Does the fact that I played Orcs in WC1 mean I understand Protoss? And yes, I would argue that Day9's understanding of zerg is as superficial as that of the other hosts on last night. They need a zerg player that has actually tried all the crap they they've been theorycrafting about, so they don't have such a dumb one-sided argument again. What podcast did you listen to? I already said, for 40 minutes they weren't theorycrafting about zerg. They were talking about balance, mentality, and the structure of the game itself. Their reasoning for why ZvP was fine was basically "lol 20 infestors" and "lol nydus everywhere", and then a completely retarded comparison to TvZ dropships / scourge. And about how Zerg doesn't play like Terran or Protoss in the respect that you can just mass a ball and roll the other guy's ball of units. I think you missed their points. And how it's all about multi-tasking and multi-pronged attacks, and anyone who's seen Sen rape Naniwa in the GCPL finals game three, or IdrA own Cruncher in the one TSL game he won knows exactly what we're talking about. That's how Zerg is supposed to be played. Same with + Show Spoiler +Sheth vs. Artosis recently. Constant, relentless poking and dropping and nydusing and not allowing your opponent to do anything. They can't use their QQ-imba ball of death/ FFs/ colossi/ thor/ bio/ whatever because you're keeping them on their back foot the whole game. The analogy to TvZ in SC1 was that a great player is able to make all of these aggressive tactics work, regardless of how futile you think it may be (scourge easily cancel out dropship play, unless you have skill and balls). In SC2, nydus worms and drops are fantastic ways to abuse Zergs mobility and win games. And if you're hesitant to do them because they could hypothetically be stopped... tough. Anything could be stopped. Do it anyway, and make it work. Zerg isn't meant to be played the way Protoss or Terran is. That means that if you're playing Zerg with the expectation to win with the same mindset or strategies of a Protoss or Terran player (and vice-versa), then you're going to have a tough time... and probably lose. That doesn't mean that Zerg is underpowered or Protoss is OP or anything like that. Heck, the statistics of the games (both all across the board and also just in the top tier) show that all the match-ups have been relatively close to stable and balanced for quite some time now. It just means that some people are obviously uncertain as to how the underlying mechanics of each race work.
Except the counter argument is that, against a equally skilled opponent, the constant attack/harass style does not work any better. All forms of zerg aggression are pretty simple to stop for players who scout a lot, it's why aggressive zergs will not do any better against someone like MC.
The entire reason people got into the "macro style" was because of how hard it is to attack and do enough damage to justify it. The less units a zerg attacks with, the less overall damage you do with each attack due to speed at which they die
As for idra vs cruncher, on terminus, take a look at morrow (?) i think, last time he tried it. Oh, a protoss scouted early with a phoenix. Bam, you just lost the game because all you have is a lot of terrible units that are not good unless they are inside the protoss base.
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On April 14 2011 01:13 Beyonder wrote:
Also, JP really kills the conversation when the conversation finally gets going and makes the conversation so superficial. He constantly asks superficial questions that do not stimulate discussion. Is this something that's on my end, or do others also feel this?
Examples? I haven't noticed it.
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On April 14 2011 01:13 Beyonder wrote:
Also, JP really kills the conversation when the conversation finally gets going and makes the conversation so superficial. He constantly asks superficial questions that do not stimulate discussion. Is this something that's on my end, or do others also feel this?
I totaly agree. I was more depressed about this cast, than ever before. It was not a good time for the guys aswell I guess. We saw Tyler was not in the best mood... Aswell as Artosis
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On April 14 2011 01:13 Beyonder wrote:
Also, JP really kills the conversation when the conversation finally gets going and makes the conversation so superficial. He constantly asks superficial questions that do not stimulate discussion. Is this something that's on my end, or do others also feel this?
One critique I have is that he often "teases" the other pillars of the show (i.e. "Tyler's being such a pussy") that heads to just sort of these odd pauses that lead to no where, kill time, or completely derail the conversation.
It's a shame because I listen to SotG to get completely schooled my a pro-players wisdom and obviously not listen to JP rag on players being down. It could be just this podcast since he was in a tough situation where almost everyone on his show was down and didn't really want to talk about anything which is the whole point of the show, so its understandable that JP may try to alleviate that tension? It is only a slight pet peeve however that probably was only magnified through the nature of the last cast, which arguable was just due to bad timing (everyone having a bad day at the same time).
In any case, my one suggestion is that if JP ever runs into a situation last yesterday, just do more to direct the conversation and bring up interesting topics. You can easily alleviate the situation by saying "what are your thoughts on this one specific point" because progamers/ANYONE will always love to hear themselves talk, but sometimes you just gotta push them in the right direction.
BW discussion at the end was pretty epic, but another critique I have is that 2/3 players there were Protoss players, and Day[9] doesn't really have to worry about results so for him to just mess around with new strategies isn't much of an opportunity cost vs. actual practice time. I'd agree there are mentality issues, but I feel they're making the Zerg situation a lot shallower than it truly is.
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preshow, as usual was excellent, friends discussing and talking about sc
sotg, as it has become, too structured, boring and superficial
Cant we just listen to you guys vent chat for 2 hours?
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On April 14 2011 01:13 Beyonder wrote:
Also, JP really kills the conversation when the conversation finally gets going and makes the conversation so superficial. He constantly asks superficial questions that do not stimulate discussion. Is this something that's on my end, or do others also feel this?
You have a point, but hearing Day9 laugh uncontrollably for 30 seconds can also take away from the discussion. It sometimes is funny, and sometimes it's "oh, again?..."
JP will be more heavily criticized because he doesn't have the status that the others have (being pro gamer, etc.), but isn't SotG ultimately his show? He's kind of like Seindfeld, in that Jerry's acting was not great by any means, but that it was "his show" and his character brought the four together. Don't take that analogy too far, though. I'm aware Seinfeld had plenty of great lines, many of which were ad libbed ("And you wanna be my latex salesman." was one such line).
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Day9.
Please.
STOP SAYING "LIKE" EVERY GODAMN SENTANCE!
Great episode. <3
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On April 14 2011 01:41 Krehlmar wrote:
Day9.
Please.
STOP SAYING "LIKE" EVERY GODAMN SENTANCE!
Great episode. <3
Like Southern California does that to you dood.
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On April 14 2011 01:29 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 00:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 14 2011 00:32 loveeholicce wrote:On April 13 2011 23:59 The KY wrote:On April 13 2011 23:49 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:37 karpo wrote:On April 13 2011 23:33 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating. I want them to just STFU about zerg when there is no zerg on the show. Listening to a one-sided argument about how PvZ is fine for 40 minutes, from protoss players with only a superficial understanding of zerg, was terribly obnoxious. I would have been fine if they had the discussion last week with Idra there, I might have even learned something, instead I got "build 3 control groups of infestors!" and "lolnydus". As a zerg player, the whole discussion was terribly insulting. D9 played zerg in BW and plays random in SC2. It's not like he has no clue on how high level zerg play works. BW is a different game, BW zerg is a different race than SC2 zerg. Does the fact that I played Orcs in WC1 mean I understand Protoss? And yes, I would argue that Day9's understanding of zerg is as superficial as that of the other hosts on last night. They need a zerg player that has actually tried all the crap they they've been theorycrafting about, so they don't have such a dumb one-sided argument again. What podcast did you listen to? I already said, for 40 minutes they weren't theorycrafting about zerg. They were talking about balance, mentality, and the structure of the game itself. Their reasoning for why ZvP was fine was basically "lol 20 infestors" and "lol nydus everywhere", and then a completely retarded comparison to TvZ dropships / scourge. And about how Zerg doesn't play like Terran or Protoss in the respect that you can just mass a ball and roll the other guy's ball of units. I think you missed their points. And how it's all about multi-tasking and multi-pronged attacks, and anyone who's seen Sen rape Naniwa in the GCPL finals game three, or IdrA own Cruncher in the one TSL game he won knows exactly what we're talking about. That's how Zerg is supposed to be played. Same with + Show Spoiler +Sheth vs. Artosis recently. Constant, relentless poking and dropping and nydusing and not allowing your opponent to do anything. They can't use their QQ-imba ball of death/ FFs/ colossi/ thor/ bio/ whatever because you're keeping them on their back foot the whole game. The analogy to TvZ in SC1 was that a great player is able to make all of these aggressive tactics work, regardless of how futile you think it may be (scourge easily cancel out dropship play, unless you have skill and balls). In SC2, nydus worms and drops are fantastic ways to abuse Zergs mobility and win games. And if you're hesitant to do them because they could hypothetically be stopped... tough. Anything could be stopped. Do it anyway, and make it work. Zerg isn't meant to be played the way Protoss or Terran is. That means that if you're playing Zerg with the expectation to win with the same mindset or strategies of a Protoss or Terran player (and vice-versa), then you're going to have a tough time... and probably lose. That doesn't mean that Zerg is underpowered or Protoss is OP or anything like that. Heck, the statistics of the games (both all across the board and also just in the top tier) show that all the match-ups have been relatively close to stable and balanced for quite some time now. It just means that some people are obviously uncertain as to how the underlying mechanics of each race work. Except the counter argument is that, against a equally skilled opponent, the constant attack/harass style does not work any better. All forms of zerg aggression are pretty simple to stop for players who scout a lot, it's why aggressive zergs will not do any better against someone like MC. The entire reason people got into the "macro style" was because of how hard it is to attack and do enough damage to justify it. The less units a zerg attacks with, the less overall damage you do with each attack due to speed at which they die As for idra vs cruncher, on terminus, take a look at morrow (?) i think, last time he tried it. Oh, a protoss scouted early with a phoenix. Bam, you just lost the game because all you have is a lot of terrible units that are not good unless they are inside the protoss base.
I don't believe that these have to be mutually exclusive. I think you can pin an opponent into his base with decent aggression and pokes while you macro up and take half the map. And if he tries pushing out, you can drop in his base or throw down a nydus or two or fly a few mutas around the back.
I understand that he may attempt to say, "screw my entire base- I'm just gonna go kill him" and move out anyway, but your bases don't have to be left completely defenseless. + Show Spoiler +Sheth's baneling bombs decimated Artosis, even against blink stalkers which counter Zerg air. Moon had Grubby's number pretty decisively in the third game of their NASL match too.
I don't think scouting drop tech means the Zerg loses the game. It's how you use it, in my opinion.
And no one- regardless of race- has solved MC yet 
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United States12607 Posts
Huge fan here. Guys, I really loved what you had to say re: game balance not being about "I should be able to win from any situation". I hadn't thought about it before, but completely agree that this incorrect attitude is all over the place in SC2 and wasn't really seen in BW. Thanks for bringing that up.
Cheer up Tyler!
All you SotG guys should ignore everyone who bags on you for being critical of other players. I'd guess 99% of listeners are just thrilled to get your opinion, negative or positive. I know you are experts and that's enough for me — don't need to mine iNc or Tyler's recent record to enjoy listening to them comment about MC.
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EPT
