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On April 13 2011 22:10 WhiteDog wrote:
I was basically saying that yes, we listen to chomsky point of view on politic at first because he made decisiv theory on linguistic. We are in fact listening at Tyler and Geoff because they have a history, they are known to be really interesting players, with great skill and such. So saying "it's not because they don't have result that they should not be listened" is funny.
Geoff himself said some time ago that what Day9 says is often outdated because he doesn't have the time to play.
Tyler is often flamed because he does not give his best to SC2, and actually played wow for a long time.
Geoff is a caster, almost married, coaching big guy.
Day9/Tyler/Geoff's points of view are interesting, but stop implying like everything they say is like the word of god directly appearing on the fucking bible: they are wrong about ZvP balance, and all this thing about seeking new doors is getting old.
I am in NO WAY disrespecting them for saying that.
Accomplishments and the level at which somebody competes definitely matter.
People listen to Tyler, Geoff and Sean for that exact reason - because they're proven veterans and major tournament winners in by and far the most advanced RTS game ever. Even if all of them were in a position that Sean is in now (not playing SC2 actively/professionally but still dedicating majority of their time to follow the game), people would still be very wise to listen to them. Not in the "word of god" sense, but definitely in the "these guys know what they're talking about" sense.
You are disrespecting them by saying they're wrong instead of saying that you disagree with their opinion (and agree with Idra's, or whoever). Because that's pretty much everything you can do at this point - agree with one side or the other. You can not conclusively decide that they're wrong.
Automatically assuming that Idra is somehow more qualified than Tyler or Sean to make statements about game balance is fallacious.
First of all, no player is ever really qualified to make statements about game balance, especially not at such an early stage of SC2's "life". Idra is by no means qualified to say that "Zergs are broken and there's nothing a Zerg can do in this or that situation", because by saying that he assumes he knows everything about the game. The only thing he can say on this topic and be right is "I don't understand how to solve this problem I'm having".
Second, just by competing at a higher level currently doesn't give Idra any special insight into the nature of the game that Tyler, Geoff or Sean lack. All of them used to compete at the same level at some point. There's no mystical knowledge that Idra has that they don't have just because he's currently practicing more and playing better.
Finally, forget Idra. Would you say HuK, a current Code S GSL player with some major tournament wins is automatically more knowledgeable about the game and understands it better than Tyler or Ret? Would you say Naniwa understands it better than any of them because he like all-killed MLG?
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 13 2011 22:57 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 22:50 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 13 2011 22:40 The KY wrote:
a) you have no idea what his practice regiment is
b) players practice in different ways, for different amounts of time.
and
c) more practise does not neccessarily mean better. I'm sure there are platinum players who practice as much as some pro gamers. a) Idra puts more hours, that is the reason he doesn't coach as much if all, nor has any obligations to organizations like NASL. b) Idra has stayed in korea, with estro /& cj pro team houses. He knows how the best of the best in the world of BW trained, has been playing with Koreans since the beta, was playing in the GSL and topped Korean ladder in beta. c) Idra is superior to incontrol both in terms of mechanics and rts understanding. SOOO??? Not trying to take anything away from geoff (even thought It may sound like I am.) SOOO, InControl doesn't have a defeatist attitude or is very prone to negativity and whine. Idra has thrown away several games by all-inning or quitting way to soon. That's not due to the race being bad, it's just bad play.
No but what about other zergs? They too have defeatist approach to the game? how about Ret, Haypro, Slush, Sheth, Machine from MLG dallas??
And why does he have a defeatist approach to ZvP again?
keep going in a circle ^_^
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On April 13 2011 22:52 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 22:36 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 22:29 Deadlyfish wrote:What i'm trying to say, is that whining about balance is a completely normal thing to do in other games, and it has carried over to Starcraft now, as well as the mentality that someone will fix it for you as long as you complain enough. The only problem is that Starcraft isnt anything like CoD or WoW or whatever other game out there. It is far more complex, and i hope that people will learn that as time goes on, that things can and will fix themselves. I hope people can understand my point, because it's really hard to explain it properly  Please explain why this game "can and will" fix itself. This strikes me as just wishful thinking. Uhhhhhhh, if i knew how the game would change then i'd do it, and i'd be praised for it, but i dont. The point is people have to figure it out. I'm not gonna deny that there is a chance that this is it, that the game wont change at all without patching, but i'll ask you the same question then: how do you know that tomorrow someone wont figure out how to beat protoss easily? 2 months ago (or 3, cant remember) ZvP was considered balanced, then it all changed, how? What's to say it wont change in the zergs favor next time? Just like Protoss players figured out how to play PvZ, zergs will figure out how to play ZvP. It isnt supposed to be easy, it takes time. Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 22:35 emecee wrote:
so what you're saying is we should just not change anything to the balance ever and stay on the current version. and just let people "figure" things out. right?
i'm not sure if you did play sc1 because if you did from the beginning you would know just how many huge changes were made in the beginning era of the game. do you think they changed nothing in all of sc1 and just let people figure it out? I'm not saying that at all. Im saying that ZvP has not been imbalanced for that long, and certainly not long enough for anyone to proclaim it "eternally imbalanced". Imagine if blizzard just came out with a new patch every time a matchup was considered favored towards X. I understand people saying "well then it could be years before anything is figured out, how long do we have to wait?" - and my answer to that is - a lot longer than 2 months. I dont have some magic time set for when a patch it needed, but i just think the time certainly isnt now.
Hey I just wanted to say that I completely agree with your assessment and with the "WoW background argument." Also your patience with explaining it after I thought you already did clear enough. Awesome posts.
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Personally I do not care anymore if zerg is UP or not. But I care that it is boring. As some people say I would much rather have a game where every race is very, very OP.
Let me compare this to another rts that I played a lot: C&C Generals. That game had different sides that also played very much different. Each side had op things. One of them had all their building invisible. Other had tanks that could kill a couple of any other side. Another had airforce that once got large enough could not be stopped by conventional means (similar how you cannot just force yourself through sieged terran army in sc2).
And the game was a lot of fun. And you could win with almost all sides against all others just by using well what made you OP. And let me say it again, the game was a real blast to play.
For now SC2 for me is better then other RTS out there at the moment but still less fun then C&C:Generals was.
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Zerg is never gonna be "balanced" becoz the players will whine either way. Look at idra, he whined in latelate broodwar, gg buddy, gg
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On April 13 2011 22:35 emecee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 22:29 Deadlyfish wrote:I feel that the problem discussing balance is that a lot of new players simply dont know how things work in Starcraft. (not saying that i perfectly do). Just gonna use WoW as an example here. When you come from a WoW background, you're used to people screaming OP, even the most well respected members of the community will whine about something, and Blizzard will nerf things every month so nobody is really OP for very long. So when you come from that background, as I suspect quite a few people do, you aren't used to the game sort of developing for itself, you expect someone to fix it for you (Blizzard). Many people here did not play sc1, they dont know anything about it, and therefore they cannot understand the arguments used by day9/tyler etc. What i'm trying to say, is that whining about balance is a completely normal thing to do in other games, and it has carried over to Starcraft now, as well as the mentality that someone will fix it for you as long as you complain enough. The only problem is that Starcraft isnt anything like CoD or WoW or whatever other game out there. It is far more complex, and i hope that people will learn that as time goes on, that things can and will fix themselves. I hope people can understand my point, because it's really hard to explain it properly so what you're saying is we should just not change anything to the balance ever and stay on the current version. and just let people "figure" things out. right? i'm not sure if you did play sc1 because if you did from the beginning you would know just how many huge changes were made in the beginning era of the game. do you think they changed nothing in all of sc1 and just let people figure it out?
This is what I'm talking about when a few posts ago I was wondering if people are deaf and blind - did you listen to the podcast at all?
Incontrol; 'In Brood War, we did not...we were an abandoned community, so to speak. We did not have the expectation or...it was not possible for us to be like 'They'll patch this', it was NOT. So there was never that consideration, it was not a process of your thought, if it was you were an idiot. All their patches happened magically and they were like 5 years apart, it would just come down, we would know nothing about it, it would just happen.'
They made so many good points in this podcast, but NO ONE is addressing them. They're just sticking to the usual 'what tournaments have they won', 'but IdrA says', 'why are all zergs complaining then', 'they just don't want to admit it's imbalanced'.
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On April 13 2011 23:28 zasda wrote:
Zerg is never gonna be "balanced" becoz the players will whine either way. Look at idra, he whined in latelate broodwar, gg buddy, gg
Were Zerg players whining when Z was OP in the beta? No
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On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating.
I want them to just STFU about zerg when there is no zerg on the show. Listening to a one-sided argument about how PvZ is fine for 40 minutes, from protoss players with only a superficial understanding of zerg, was terribly obnoxious. I would have been fine if they had the discussion last week with Idra there, I might have even learned something, instead I got "build 3 control groups of infestors!" and "lolnydus". As a zerg player, the whole discussion was terribly insulting.
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Just keep on having this IMBA IMBA IMBA mindset just like Idra.
And you will lose games/tournaments to hallucinated units.
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On April 13 2011 23:33 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating. I want them to just STFU about zerg when there is no zerg on the show. Listening to a one-sided argument about how PvZ is fine for 40 minutes, from protoss players with only a superficial understanding of zerg, was terribly obnoxious. I would have been fine if they had the discussion last week with Idra there, I might have even learned something, instead I got "build 3 control groups of infestors!" and "lolnydus". As a zerg player, the whole discussion was terribly insulting.
If you feel insulted by the guys talking about zerg i can't see how you'll get through life tbh. D9 played zerg in BW and plays random in SC2. It's not like he has no clue on how high level zerg play works.
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On April 13 2011 23:33 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating. I want them to just STFU about zerg when there is no zerg on the show. Listening to a one-sided argument about how PvZ is fine for 40 minutes, from protoss players with only a superficial understanding of zerg, was terribly obnoxious. I would have been fine if they had the discussion last week with Idra there, I might have even learned something, instead I got "build 3 control groups of infestors!" and "lolnydus". As a zerg player, the whole discussion was terribly insulting.
Listen to the podcast. They spend a LONG time talking about BALANCE. Not zerg. Balance. Talking about the mentality in Brood War, talking about situations where you cannot win and why those should exist, talking about forcing situations, talking about how things were figured out. They're not doing useless theorycrafting here, they're talking about the structure of the game and explaining their position.
If IdrA was there he'd just say 'oh but when was the last time a zerg won a tournament, the game is broken'.
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On April 13 2011 23:27 -Archangel- wrote:
Personally I do not care anymore if zerg is UP or not. But I care that it is boring. As some people say I would much rather have a game where every race is very, very OP.
Let me compare this to another rts that I played a lot: C&C Generals. That game had different sides that also played very much different. Each side had op things. One of them had all their building invisible. Other had tanks that could kill a couple of any other side. Another had airforce that once got large enough could not be stopped by conventional means (similar how you cannot just force yourself through sieged terran army in sc2).
And the game was a lot of fun. And you could win with almost all sides against all others just by using well what made you OP. And let me say it again, the game was a real blast to play.
For now SC2 for me is better then other RTS out there at the moment but still less fun then C&C:Generals was.
Yeah, I can agree with this actually. The game is really boring from my Protoss point of view as well.
However I would actually prefer a "low power" game where units themselves don't have game-changing abilities and hard-counters than a "high power" game where a correct choice of units demolishes everything under the right circumstances.
The "high power" concepts (that SC2 is full of) just cause the game to be more about getting a specific set of units at a specific time, or making the right choice of units based on what your opponent does, than controlling them skilfully or being skilled enough to get a lot more units than your opponent.
There was a lot of people who wanted to see Starcraft 2 be a more "strategy" game where being clever with strategy and broad stroke decisions because of the way Brood War was ruthlessly mechanical. But in a long run, I think that approach is wrong and generally less fun.
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On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating.
I fully agree with this.
There are still so many things to explore in sc2. As they pointed out on SotG there's a lot of people who are expecting that if you mass a certain army with the right composition you're supposed to be rolling up your opponent. That really isn't the way it should go down, there's more factors to the match.
I loved what iNcontroL pointed out towards Nydus worms, people are just too stuck in a certain mindset. There are still units/strategies with a lot of potential that are completely unused because of the general concensus that you should be doing something else. I've been playing around with mass Infestors lately, and it saddens me to not see any of that in pro games because I know the potential is there.
Creativity where art thou?
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the best point i feel tyler made was that the game maybe shouldn't be balanced around deathball vs. deathball, because that might be a trap leading into a constant rebalancing cycle. maybe some people don't mind the idea of this, but i think some games become too reliant on their developers constantly tipping the balance to make them playable. hopefully blizzard approaches the next balancing patch with a lot of foresight, so we don't need more and more balancing at least before the next expansion.
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On April 13 2011 23:23 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 22:57 karpo wrote:On April 13 2011 22:50 Gunman_csz wrote:On April 13 2011 22:40 The KY wrote:
a) you have no idea what his practice regiment is
b) players practice in different ways, for different amounts of time.
and
c) more practise does not neccessarily mean better. I'm sure there are platinum players who practice as much as some pro gamers. a) Idra puts more hours, that is the reason he doesn't coach as much if all, nor has any obligations to organizations like NASL. b) Idra has stayed in korea, with estro /& cj pro team houses. He knows how the best of the best in the world of BW trained, has been playing with Koreans since the beta, was playing in the GSL and topped Korean ladder in beta. c) Idra is superior to incontrol both in terms of mechanics and rts understanding. SOOO??? Not trying to take anything away from geoff (even thought It may sound like I am.) SOOO, InControl doesn't have a defeatist attitude or is very prone to negativity and whine. Idra has thrown away several games by all-inning or quitting way to soon. That's not due to the race being bad, it's just bad play. No but what about other zergs? They too have defeatist approach to the game? how about Ret, Haypro, Slush, Sheth, Machine from MLG dallas?? And why does he have a defeatist approach to ZvP again? keep going in a circle ^_^
I'm not going in circles. You compared Idra to InControl, so i responded to that. Idra has great mechanics but that doesn't help if he throws it away whenever he feels like he's behind in a game. I believe that InControl's play is on the level of all the other players you listed, just cause he does other stuff too doesn't mean he isn't practicing like a madman.
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On April 13 2011 23:37 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 23:33 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating. I want them to just STFU about zerg when there is no zerg on the show. Listening to a one-sided argument about how PvZ is fine for 40 minutes, from protoss players with only a superficial understanding of zerg, was terribly obnoxious. I would have been fine if they had the discussion last week with Idra there, I might have even learned something, instead I got "build 3 control groups of infestors!" and "lolnydus". As a zerg player, the whole discussion was terribly insulting. D9 played zerg in BW and plays random in SC2. It's not like he has no clue on how high level zerg play works.
BW is a different game, BW zerg is a different race than SC2 zerg. Does the fact that I played Orcs in WC1 mean I understand Protoss? And yes, I would argue that Day9's understanding of zerg is as superficial as that of the other hosts on last night. They need a zerg player that has actually tried all the crap they they've been theorycrafting about, so they don't have such a dumb one-sided argument again.
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On April 13 2011 23:41 taintmachine wrote:
the best point i feel tyler made was that the game maybe shouldn't be balanced around deathball vs. deathball, because that might be a trap leading into a constant rebalancing cycle. maybe some people don't mind the idea of this, but i think some games become too reliant on their developers constantly tipping the balance to make them playable. hopefully blizzard approaches the next balancing patch with a lot of foresight, so we don't need more and more balancing at least before the next expansion.
Toss should win deathball v deathball, but shouldn't win while losing only like 30 supply. It was also much, much easier for zerg to actually attack/harass in BW
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any link to the blip video of the show?
it's impossible to navigate with the constant whining and arguing in here -,-'
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I agree with what was discussed on the balance issue. I would also like to state that perfection is impossible to obtain, we will never have perfectly balanced SC2. We shouldn't want that either for the same reasons that Tyler noted in this past SotG. Games would be very dull and boring if there was always a clear and decisive way out of any situation no matter what time of the game.
my 2 cents.
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On April 13 2011 23:49 SmoKim wrote:
any link to the blip video of the show?
it's impossible to navigate with the constant whining and arguing in here -,-'
go to the sotg blog and its there
http://itmejp.blip.tv/file/5012319/
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EPT
