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On April 13 2011 22:29 Deadlyfish wrote:I feel that the problem discussing balance is that a lot of new players simply dont know how things work in Starcraft. (not saying that i perfectly do). Just gonna use WoW as an example here. When you come from a WoW background, you're used to people screaming OP, even the most well respected members of the community will whine about something, and Blizzard will nerf things every month so nobody is really OP for very long. So when you come from that background, as I suspect quite a few people do, you aren't used to the game sort of developing for itself, you expect someone to fix it for you (Blizzard). Many people here did not play sc1, they dont know anything about it, and therefore they cannot understand the arguments used by day9/tyler etc. What i'm trying to say, is that whining about balance is a completely normal thing to do in other games, and it has carried over to Starcraft now, as well as the mentality that someone will fix it for you as long as you complain enough. The only problem is that Starcraft isnt anything like CoD or WoW or whatever other game out there. It is far more complex, and i hope that people will learn that as time goes on, that things can and will fix themselves. I hope people can understand my point, because it's really hard to explain it properly 
so what you're saying is we should just not change anything to the balance ever and stay on the current version. and just let people "figure" things out. right?
i'm not sure if you did play sc1 because if you did from the beginning you would know just how many huge changes were made in the beginning era of the game. do you think they changed nothing in all of sc1 and just let people figure it out?
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On April 13 2011 22:29 Deadlyfish wrote:What i'm trying to say, is that whining about balance is a completely normal thing to do in other games, and it has carried over to Starcraft now, as well as the mentality that someone will fix it for you as long as you complain enough. The only problem is that Starcraft isnt anything like CoD or WoW or whatever other game out there. It is far more complex, and i hope that people will learn that as time goes on, that things can and will fix themselves. I hope people can understand my point, because it's really hard to explain it properly
Please explain why this game "can and will" fix itself. This strikes me as just wishful thinking.
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Art is signature, you would never even know about chomsky if he were not a decisiv linguist. There are a lot of guy outthere who constantly said a lot of interesting things about the politic and no one ever heard of them because it's NOT the content that makes someone famous. Get real.
Who said anything about why they're famous? The point is address what they are saying and not why you should listen to it.
Ok so you listen to Chomsky because he is famous at first and because he backs that up with quality opinion afterwards. If he talked shite about politics, you wouldn't listen to him.
Likewise Tyler, Inc and Day[9] were famous before SotG, and now they back that up with the content of their discussion. They don't have to be winning MLG's to know a lot more than the listeners. If they were winning MLGs then their opinion on ZvP balance would not be different. They'd be saying the same thing, but by your logic it would somehow suddenly become more valid.
Tbh I'm having trouble taking you seriously after you used iNcontroL's MLG success as proof that protoss is unbalanced, because you made the totally baseless assumption that he practices less than IdrA and should therefore not be getting results.
a) you have no idea what his practice regiment is
b) players practice in different ways, for different amounts of time.
and
c) more practise does not neccessarily mean better. I'm sure there are platinum players who practice as much as some pro gamers.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 13 2011 22:40 The KY wrote:
a) you have no idea what his practice regiment is
b) players practice in different ways, for different amounts of time.
and
c) more practise does not neccessarily mean better. I'm sure there are platinum players who practice as much as some pro gamers.
a) Idra puts more hours, that is the reason he doesn't coach as much if all, nor has any obligations to organizations like NASL.
b) Idra has stayed in korea, with estro /& cj pro team houses. He knows how the best of the best in the world of BW trained, has been playing with Koreans since the beta, was playing in the GSL and topped Korean ladder in beta.
c) Idra is superior to incontrol both in terms of mechanics and rts understanding.
SOOO???
Not trying to take anything away from geoff (even thought It may sound like I am.)
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On April 13 2011 22:36 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 22:29 Deadlyfish wrote:What i'm trying to say, is that whining about balance is a completely normal thing to do in other games, and it has carried over to Starcraft now, as well as the mentality that someone will fix it for you as long as you complain enough. The only problem is that Starcraft isnt anything like CoD or WoW or whatever other game out there. It is far more complex, and i hope that people will learn that as time goes on, that things can and will fix themselves. I hope people can understand my point, because it's really hard to explain it properly Please explain why this game "can and will" fix itself. This strikes me as just wishful thinking.
Uhhhhhhh, if i knew how the game would change then i'd do it, and i'd be praised for it, but i dont. The point is people have to figure it out.
I'm not gonna deny that there is a chance that this is it, that the game wont change at all without patching, but i'll ask you the same question then: how do you know that tomorrow someone wont figure out how to beat protoss easily?
2 months ago (or 3, cant remember) ZvP was considered balanced, then it all changed, how? What's to say it wont change in the zergs favor next time? Just like Protoss players figured out how to play PvZ, zergs will figure out how to play ZvP. It isnt supposed to be easy, it takes time.
On April 13 2011 22:35 emecee wrote:
so what you're saying is we should just not change anything to the balance ever and stay on the current version. and just let people "figure" things out. right?
i'm not sure if you did play sc1 because if you did from the beginning you would know just how many huge changes were made in the beginning era of the game. do you think they changed nothing in all of sc1 and just let people figure it out?
I'm not saying that at all. Im saying that ZvP has not been imbalanced for that long, and certainly not long enough for anyone to proclaim it "eternally imbalanced". Imagine if blizzard just came out with a new patch every time a matchup was considered favored towards X.
I understand people saying "well then it could be years before anything is figured out, how long do we have to wait?" - and my answer to that is - a lot longer than 2 months. I dont have some magic time set for when a patch it needed, but i just think the time certainly isnt now.
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On April 13 2011 22:50 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 22:40 The KY wrote:
a) you have no idea what his practice regiment is
b) players practice in different ways, for different amounts of time.
and
c) more practise does not neccessarily mean better. I'm sure there are platinum players who practice as much as some pro gamers. a) Idra puts more hours, that is the reason he doesn't coach as much if all, nor has any obligations to organizations like NASL. b) Idra has stayed in korea, with estro /& cj pro team houses. He knows how the best of the best in the world of BW trained, has been playing with Koreans since the beta, was playing in the GSL and topped Korean ladder in beta. c) Idra is superior to incontrol both in terms of mechanics and rts understanding. SOOO??? Not trying to take anything away from geoff (even thought It may sound like I am.)
Ok...and IdrA is better than iNcontroL. Very few people are going to argue against that.
But saying that because Inc is still a progamer despite his other commitments is proof of protoss being imba...it blows my fucking mind how wrong that is.
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On April 13 2011 22:36 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 22:29 Deadlyfish wrote:What i'm trying to say, is that whining about balance is a completely normal thing to do in other games, and it has carried over to Starcraft now, as well as the mentality that someone will fix it for you as long as you complain enough. The only problem is that Starcraft isnt anything like CoD or WoW or whatever other game out there. It is far more complex, and i hope that people will learn that as time goes on, that things can and will fix themselves. I hope people can understand my point, because it's really hard to explain it properly Please explain why this game "can and will" fix itself. This strikes me as just wishful thinking.
Couple of months ago Protoss was considered balanced, what have changed? Nothing but the meta game. Same thing might happend now, the thing is blizz shouldnt rush balanance because 1 race is having a bad time atm.
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On April 13 2011 22:50 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 22:40 The KY wrote:
a) you have no idea what his practice regiment is
b) players practice in different ways, for different amounts of time.
and
c) more practise does not neccessarily mean better. I'm sure there are platinum players who practice as much as some pro gamers. a) Idra puts more hours, that is the reason he doesn't coach as much if all, nor has any obligations to organizations like NASL. b) Idra has stayed in korea, with estro /& cj pro team houses. He knows how the best of the best in the world of BW trained, has been playing with Koreans since the beta, was playing in the GSL and topped Korean ladder in beta. c) Idra is superior to incontrol both in terms of mechanics and rts understanding. SOOO??? Not trying to take anything away from geoff (even thought It may sound like I am.)
SOOO, InControl doesn't have a defeatist attitude or is very prone to negativity and whine. Idra has thrown away several games by all-inning or quitting way to soon. That's not due to the race being bad, it's just bad play.
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On April 13 2011 16:35 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:28 Gotmog wrote:On April 13 2011 16:21 Aequos wrote:On April 13 2011 16:08 Defacer wrote:
Imagine if Toss whined all day about not having any viable anti-air in the late game, that phoenixes were good in the mid game but too weak and void rays were too frail and slow.
All the Zergs would whisper, "Try building some fucking carriers. They have the highest range and DPS in the game."
And then, instead of trying to find a viable build to get to carriers, the Toss whined about how expensive they are, how they take forever, et cetera et cetera.
The SOTG hosts are right. There are a plethora of unique abilities that the Zerg have that are under-used. Maybe instead of complaining about how difficult it is to actually exploit these abilities, Zerg's should rethink their approach to the game, so they can create situations where they can exploit these abilities.
I actually like this analogy. Toss anti-air is kind of bad, but we work around it by not letting the Zerg get the 50 muta ball it ideally wants by either: 1) 6-gating to kill them if they tried to go muta-ling or 2) Making them spend gas on non-muta units. It's a wrong analogy. Not a single zerg unit is left unexplored. If there is, please make an example. It's not whether or not a unit is unexplored but instead if it has been explored enough. As stated in the latest SotG, Infestors and Nydus Worms are under-explored despite their huge potential. Creative Nydus Worm usage has huge potential to abuse Protoss immobility despite the cost. Mass Infestor usage is a solution to the huge gas intake that a Zerg can potentially get from taking so many bases so quickly. Plus, Fungal Growth is quite devastating against Terran bio and Protoss Gateway units.
Everybody talks about the protoss immobility but I think it's bullshit on decently sized maps like metal. If you try to drop the protoss they always has a warpcycle ready to warp in units in 0sec exactly where the drop is while their army is coming back, if it is even out of position. Then the zerg will need to hurry the hell out of there if it is a massive drop because your army will probably be in a choke and the protoss will kill your entire army due to bad positioning.
The only thing that solves losing your entire army is nydus...but the protoss can kill a worm so easily with the warp-in mechanic or probes.
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On April 13 2011 22:35 emecee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 22:29 Deadlyfish wrote:I feel that the problem discussing balance is that a lot of new players simply dont know how things work in Starcraft. (not saying that i perfectly do). Just gonna use WoW as an example here. When you come from a WoW background, you're used to people screaming OP, even the most well respected members of the community will whine about something, and Blizzard will nerf things every month so nobody is really OP for very long. So when you come from that background, as I suspect quite a few people do, you aren't used to the game sort of developing for itself, you expect someone to fix it for you (Blizzard). Many people here did not play sc1, they dont know anything about it, and therefore they cannot understand the arguments used by day9/tyler etc. What i'm trying to say, is that whining about balance is a completely normal thing to do in other games, and it has carried over to Starcraft now, as well as the mentality that someone will fix it for you as long as you complain enough. The only problem is that Starcraft isnt anything like CoD or WoW or whatever other game out there. It is far more complex, and i hope that people will learn that as time goes on, that things can and will fix themselves. I hope people can understand my point, because it's really hard to explain it properly so what you're saying is we should just not change anything to the balance ever and stay on the current version. and just let people "figure" things out. right? i'm not sure if you did play sc1 because if you did from the beginning you would know just how many huge changes were made in the beginning era of the game. do you think they changed nothing in all of sc1 and just let people figure it out?
The thing is, we do not have the ability to change the balance of the game. That is not our responsibility, and the stance Tyler, Inc and Day[9] take is that it should not be your concern either. Because it's a dead end mentality wise.
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circle-jerk episode :/ I dont think ranting about zergs not doing enough "creative" stuff without a top zerg on the show is fair
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On April 13 2011 22:52 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 22:36 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 22:29 Deadlyfish wrote:What i'm trying to say, is that whining about balance is a completely normal thing to do in other games, and it has carried over to Starcraft now, as well as the mentality that someone will fix it for you as long as you complain enough. The only problem is that Starcraft isnt anything like CoD or WoW or whatever other game out there. It is far more complex, and i hope that people will learn that as time goes on, that things can and will fix themselves. I hope people can understand my point, because it's really hard to explain it properly Please explain why this game "can and will" fix itself. This strikes me as just wishful thinking. Uhhhhhhh, if i knew how the game would change then i'd do it, and i'd be praised for it, but i dont. The point is people have to figure it out. I'm not gonna deny that there is a chance that this is it, that the game wont change at all without patching, but i'll ask you the same question then: how do you know that tomorrow someone wont figure out how to beat protoss easily?
Because it hasn't happened for the last 300+ "tomorrows", zerg has been like this since beta... enough is enough.
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On April 13 2011 23:03 ABOOMAN wrote:
circle-jerk episode :/ I dont think ranting about zergs not doing enough "creative" stuff without a top zerg on the show is fair
exactly my thoughts... and the last time i watched with a zerg pro player D[9] kinda trolled him =/
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On April 13 2011 23:05 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 22:52 Deadlyfish wrote:On April 13 2011 22:36 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 22:29 Deadlyfish wrote:What i'm trying to say, is that whining about balance is a completely normal thing to do in other games, and it has carried over to Starcraft now, as well as the mentality that someone will fix it for you as long as you complain enough. The only problem is that Starcraft isnt anything like CoD or WoW or whatever other game out there. It is far more complex, and i hope that people will learn that as time goes on, that things can and will fix themselves. I hope people can understand my point, because it's really hard to explain it properly Please explain why this game "can and will" fix itself. This strikes me as just wishful thinking. Uhhhhhhh, if i knew how the game would change then i'd do it, and i'd be praised for it, but i dont. The point is people have to figure it out. I'm not gonna deny that there is a chance that this is it, that the game wont change at all without patching, but i'll ask you the same question then: how do you know that tomorrow someone wont figure out how to beat protoss easily? Because it hasn't happened for the last 300+ "tomorrows", zerg has been like this since beta... enough is enough.
It's not like zerg is aweful and has been since the beta. Zerg players do pretty well in tournaments, not as good as terrans and a bit worse than protoss but it's not huge. It's not like in WoW where some classes just couldn't compete at high levels at all.
Also people seem to forget that Idra and Artosis went zerg mostly cause it seemed to be the strongest race in beta.
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On April 13 2011 23:03 ABOOMAN wrote:
circle-jerk episode :/ I dont think ranting about zergs not doing enough "creative" stuff without a top zerg on the show is fair
Yes, JP get some pro-zergs on and please make sure they won't back down from day9's trolling.
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Well, we will see how many tournaments it will take for someone to find the magical god build for zerg
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On April 13 2011 17:12 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 16:47 hugman wrote:On April 13 2011 16:28 Kyuki wrote:On April 13 2011 16:00 darkscream wrote:On April 13 2011 15:55 sniverty wrote:
[
well then it's time to ask ourselves why zerg is getting owned by protoss. Maybe zergs need a new kind of playstyle? We know protoss is susceptible to drop harass. Why can't we abandon the whole idea of massing roaches and corruptors and instead engage the enemy indirectly? Even without the colossus, it's pretty damn hard for zerg to engage a protoss army head on, thanks to force fields. Which is why things like hydra/baneling drops, contaminates, nydus networks, aggresive creep spread for map control are all better options than sitting in your base and spamming roaches till maxed. This may feel like the zerg having to massively outplay the toss to win, but what if it becomes the norm? Because when the toss sees you've wasted gas and money on drops and units to drop, they're going to take their death ball and kill your base, and you'll have nothing to stop it. You can't harass someone to death as Zerg. You need to harass but also win army vs army engagements. You can't win massive army vs army engagements, so you must force your opponent to split his army but that's hard. That's why Zerg is in the state its in - you can do all this cool tricky harass with muta/drops/nydus but at the end of the day there's nothing stopping him from a+moving into your main where all your tech is. Can you imagine a situation where a zerg player gets to a+move their army into a Terran or Protoss base? I can't, unless the game was already over. This is one of the main issues zergs have. You're so deep in the imba shit that you can't even see the vulnerabilities of protoss and terran. A good example is IdrA vs MC in Metal at Dreamhack last night. IdrA had the game won with his midgame roach/hydra/ling preassure had he just gone again with the reinforcement roaches, but he backed off, droned up his third and waited for toss to get back up to 170+ food. He overestimated the protoss army when he could've just A+moved into him and won. He was NEVER in a position to just a-move and win. Go rewatch the game. Instead of thinking if the matchup is broken, think if Z could be stronger in ZvP without breaking the matchup. IMO Z could be a lot stronger. In a 200/200 battle P should be stronger, but should they be able to kill an entire Z army and only drop 25 food? It's kinda silly, you have to admit. Rofl, I'd suggest you do the same. Watch the game again, and tell me that Toss wouldnt loose 9/10 times just from the roaches that should've flooded in. At around 16:15 mins into the game IdrA had 172 food vs 109 of MC. MC had 0 sentries, 2 colossi (one that was practically dead) and 7 stalkers adding a couple of sentires (2 FFs) and had almost 2 immortals coming out. At that point IdrA had _35_ roaches (with burrow movement) and 3 hydras with 6 corrupters inc... I mean had he just gone for a bumrush and hit his head against MC and pounded on the toss army it would've been so small that it couldnt hold any type of reinforcement if it hadnt just outright killed him with what he had. I just can't for the love of my life understand how you can't see that...
The Majority of that supply (aside from workers) was in Roaches and Hydras that were BUILDING.
Seconds later MC warped in a full round from his warpgates. With the time it takes for the Hydras to get over there he would have had time to warp in at least once, maybe twice more (with some stalling and chronoboost). Idras was up 60 food and he was right outside MC's nat, and he got pushed back.
Don't try to tell me dude.
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I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating.
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On April 13 2011 23:07 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 23:05 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 22:52 Deadlyfish wrote:On April 13 2011 22:36 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 22:29 Deadlyfish wrote:What i'm trying to say, is that whining about balance is a completely normal thing to do in other games, and it has carried over to Starcraft now, as well as the mentality that someone will fix it for you as long as you complain enough. The only problem is that Starcraft isnt anything like CoD or WoW or whatever other game out there. It is far more complex, and i hope that people will learn that as time goes on, that things can and will fix themselves. I hope people can understand my point, because it's really hard to explain it properly Please explain why this game "can and will" fix itself. This strikes me as just wishful thinking. Uhhhhhhh, if i knew how the game would change then i'd do it, and i'd be praised for it, but i dont. The point is people have to figure it out. I'm not gonna deny that there is a chance that this is it, that the game wont change at all without patching, but i'll ask you the same question then: how do you know that tomorrow someone wont figure out how to beat protoss easily? Because it hasn't happened for the last 300+ "tomorrows", zerg has been like this since beta... enough is enough. Also people seem to forget that Idra and Artosis went zerg mostly cause it seemed to be the strongest race in beta.
Because pros want to win, not open doors and explore shit. You'll notice that Artosis is protoss now, and TLO has also stopped playing zerg. It's getting to the point where people are giving up.
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EPT
