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On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
I think it's pretty clear what they want to hear.
It's just a shame they have to fill every single thread with it.
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On April 13 2011 23:49 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 23:37 karpo wrote:On April 13 2011 23:33 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating. I want them to just STFU about zerg when there is no zerg on the show. Listening to a one-sided argument about how PvZ is fine for 40 minutes, from protoss players with only a superficial understanding of zerg, was terribly obnoxious. I would have been fine if they had the discussion last week with Idra there, I might have even learned something, instead I got "build 3 control groups of infestors!" and "lolnydus". As a zerg player, the whole discussion was terribly insulting. D9 played zerg in BW and plays random in SC2. It's not like he has no clue on how high level zerg play works. BW is a different game, BW zerg is a different race than SC2 zerg. Does the fact that I played Orcs in WC1 mean I understand Protoss? And yes, I would argue that Day9's understanding of zerg is as superficial as that of the other hosts on last night. They need a zerg player that has actually tried all the crap they they've been theorycrafting about, so they don't have such a dumb one-sided argument again.
What podcast did you listen to? I already said, for 40 minutes they weren't theorycrafting about zerg. They were talking about balance, mentality, and the structure of the game itself.
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I’m surprised that in the SotG thread we’re still discussing random people’s views on the game rather than the opinions expressed in SotG.
I agree with what they said, but feel they skipped a few lines of reasoning in why we shouldn’t worry about balance yet.
1. The balance discussion in this episode came off as nostalgia, which I think a lot of people who didn’t play BW, and are used to Blizzard catering to whomever cries the loudest, found to be rather irrelevant – something equivalent to the old man who complains about how in his days people had it rough, so you shouldn’t complain about things you have that are rough now, you should just deal with it like they dealt with it. This kind of logic is not relevant to the current state of things – if you can make progress with the current state, complacency should not be encouraged in place of this progress, simply for appreciation of where you are and where others have been. I know this is not the manner in which SotG intended to express their opinion, but this is how it came off.
2. The more compelling argument, which they did touch on briefly, but didn’t connect to the nostalgia as much as some would need to make the connection is that the lesson learned from all the nostalgia is that opinions (even very informed opinions) are often wrong within the first few years of experimentation. It’s really this connection that people aren’t getting – that everyone who play this game doesn’t really know it yet, and that with time, we will learn to appreciate the important aspects of gameplay.
Think of it this way – imagine that today’s society was around when the wright brothers first invented the airplane almost 100 years ago, and we were all allowed to post their opinions about the plane. No doubt people would have some opinions on the first plane. Maybe some of us would want them to add a beak. I mean hey, it seems to work for birds, right? Why not add a beak, wright brothers? Do you think you’re better than the fucking birds?
Well, as it turns out, beaks aren’t actually needed to fly, but would we have necessarily known that a hundred years ago? Of course not – we found out that it wasn’t needed by proving it through innovation. My point here is that you can’t give meaningful feedback on something you know almost nothing about.
Now, the role BW plays in this line of logic is that, as it turns out, BW is also an RTS with similar rules to SC2. It took years of things not getting patched, but in the end, most people are satisfied with the balance (note: I didn’t say BW is absolutely as balanced as it could possibly be, I just said people are satisfied) – and that balance was obtained by experimentation. That means that in a game similar to BW (SC2 fits this description) we can conclude that we know very little about how the game is meant to be played at this point.
Bringing it back to aviation analogies, here is the first plane the wright brothers flew:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_Flyer
Here’s what their planes looked like 2 years later:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_Flyer_III
And here’s what planes look like today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Boeing_787_first_flight.jpg
You’ll notice that, even with the very harsh constraint of “it has to be able to fly” (which I would argue is every bit as rigorous as the constraint of “you only have 2 dozen types of units and a dozen types of buildings to build at any given point in time”) the design of airplanes changed a ton over time through very slight repeated adjustments, and lots of innovation and trial and error. We can do the same with SC2 strategies – it just takes time and extended effort.
No doubt if you asked the wright brothers (notice: the best sources of information about aviation at the time) about the future of aviation, they would not be able to conceive of a world in which a plane can ferry hundreds of people around the world in a few hours. But that’s only because they hadn’t seen it yet.
Really, our idea of how you’re “supposed” to play this game is so incomplete that any feedback we can give Blizzard at this point in time will be like trying to comment on the future of aviation in 1905 (2 years after the wright brothers’ first flight). Instead of insisting that the game as we see it is all the game can be, we should seek to make the game something others are not used to dealing with, and seeing if we can draw any strengths from styles of gameplay people aren’t using right now. Try reordering your builds, use different areas to engage your opponent, use different tactics to respond to attacks and to turtling. Innovate. It’s the only thing that’s going to change this game. Patches will come, but if history is any guide, by the time we can know what really needs to be patched, Blizzard will be allocating resources to other projects.
TLDR: People who are ignorant can’t make informed statements about the game.
As of 2 years after the release of BW, everyone was ignorant of its potential.
SC2 is like BW, in that each side is limited in number of units, structures, and in supply.
As of 9 months after the release of SC2, we can’t expect that people are not ignorant.
Therefore, the statements we can make about balance currently are statements we’re going to see as ridiculous in time.
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Belgium89 Posts
I can understand the point they make that not everything has been figured out. it's most likely true. But the constant, 'just take 7 bases and go mass infestor' or 'just pop nydus worms everywhere' is getting too silly for words.
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no matter how hard they try 2 pro protoss players talking about P v X matchups always will sound biased
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United States7483 Posts
IdrA has been winning multiple games and then throws them away after he has them won against protoss, either by making one huge glaring mistake that costs him the game, or by rage quitting when he shouldn't, like against HuK's hallucinated army.
If he just played out the games more often instead of quitting, he'd have a better win %.
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On April 13 2011 23:59 Twistacles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 23:49 SmoKim wrote:
any link to the blip video of the show?
it's impossible to navigate with the constant whining and arguing in here -,-' go to the sotg blog and its there http://itmejp.blip.tv/file/5012319/
oh that's right he moved/changed channel
you are a angel
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Anyone notice that the iTunes podcast says that the thing is 1 hour 37 minutes long, but when it hits the end of the time, it just... keeps on going? (As it should... the show was definitely longer than 1 hour 37 minutes).
Anyone know what the deal is with that?
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1. The balance discussion in this episode came off as nostalgia, which I think a lot of people who didn’t play BW, and are used to Blizzard catering to whomever cries the loudest, found to be rather irrelevant – something equivalent to the old man who complains about how in his days people had it rough, so you shouldn’t complain about things you have that are rough now, you should just deal with it like they dealt with it. This kind of logic is not relevant to the current state of things – if you can make progress with the current state, complacency should not be encouraged in place of this progress, simply for appreciation of where you are and where others have been. I know this is not the manner in which SotG intended to express their opinion, but this is how it came off.
I disagree, I think a lot of very valid points came from that discussion.
Inc explaining how balance absolutely was not your concern in BW even though there were imbalances and patches. Tyler reminding us that in BW there are situations where you absolutely cannot win, and for some reason in SC2 people percieve that as unbalanced. Day[9] and Tyler telling us about forcing situations and using the example of scourge and dropships and how in SC2 people have such a negative attitude that they would call you stupid if you told them to use drops against scourge.
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Its so obvious that a lot of you guys disagreeing with them on balance simply don't have the wisdom and history and wisdom of RTS that they do. You guys that keep disagreeing, how about you specify how long you've been a part of the RTS scene? Step it up and give us a reason to take you seriously. Anyone with talent can grind out a bunch of games and get into master league, but it doesn't mean you understand RTS at the level they do.
Do you guys not think its strange that all these guys with so much history in RTS disagree with you? And that it seems to be a common trend that the older, wiser players tend to feel this way?
On April 14 2011 00:02 Tranqje wrote:
I can understand the point they make that not everything has been figured out. it's most likely true. But the constant, 'just take 7 bases and go mass infestor' or 'just pop nydus worms everywhere' is getting too silly for words.
You are misinterpreting what they are saying and the reason is that you don't have the same perspective and expectations that they do.
Day9 and all them, in essence, assume ignorance. They have seen how much SC2 has been changing, how much past games have changed and for how long they continued to change. So when they throw out stuff like "Get 7 bases and mass infestors", it is not them saying "This is the exact way of how to be more effective at Zerg". It is them saying "Well, we don't know what is the best approach, but this is something that has not been fully flushed out yet, so it is worth giving a shot, since it sounds theoretically viable".
They are not saying it *will* work. They are operating off the assumption that anything could happen, and thus the idea is worth pursuing because it hasn't been ironed out well yet.
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I can't believe that these so-called pro-gamers are actually going ahead and talking about balance like they were golden mouse winners or video game developpers.
It's all about the mindset to be honest.
-Having a defeatist attitude,
-craving for patch notes,
-whining about a meaningless ladder rank (yes artosis I'm looking at you) and most importantly,
-not being able to handle a loss.
How can you seriously talk about balance and metagame with these guys? To me a real progamer should not care about the balance or the patch notes. He should care about practicing. You cannot get better at a RTS game by ragequitting and crying that X is broken in an internet show.
Also when idra's decision making and micro will be perfect, THEN he may talk about ZvP balance.
Finally here's my take on ZvP: Zerg needs to abuse the maps' architecture and put more emphasis on TACTICS. Stop sitting in your base waiting for the deathball to come: It's all about positionning, flanking, counter attacking, harrassing etc.
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I think if Blizzard kept balancing the game around strategies, this game would be boring as shit.
The fact of the matter is that zerg has strengths that the other races don't. You have unlimited freedom with build orders, supreme mobility, among other things. Yeah zergs 200 army doesn't stack up well against protoss and it shouldn't. Have you ever seen a midgame zerg timing attack that worked? Looks about as "OP" as voidray collosus.
I really do believe that zergs aren't being creative enough and scouting enough. (Something that could be remedied if zergs would get their lair earlier)
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I did enjoy their breakdown of zerg. Infestor, Bloodlord, Corruptor, with 4 to 6 bases, 5/6 nydus networks while not allowing protoss to max (which should be unbeatable at 200/200). Seems a bit harsh for zerg players, poor mites. Sucks to be you.
Seems like they need to balance out their line up a bit. But not with Idra so much as he gets trolled really badly.
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whining about a meaningless ladder rank (yes artosis I'm looking at you)
In fairness Artosis was whining because he believes, with reason, that Blizzard has some hard on for the Grandmaster league and progamers are going to need to be in it.
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On April 14 2011 00:17 The KY wrote:In fairness Artosis was whining because he believes, with reason, that Blizzard has some hard on for the Grandmaster league and progamers are going to need to be in it.
Didn't they say it was going to be the player pool used for official Blizzard events when they first announced it?
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After all these months I've got to know: What does JP stand for?
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When I played alot of SC1 from about 2000 to 2003, I didnt even know the word imbalance, I never encountered it. Im very glad I didnt, and I could just play and enjoy(until someone cliffed me on LT) the game as it was.
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On April 13 2011 23:59 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 23:49 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:37 karpo wrote:On April 13 2011 23:33 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating. I want them to just STFU about zerg when there is no zerg on the show. Listening to a one-sided argument about how PvZ is fine for 40 minutes, from protoss players with only a superficial understanding of zerg, was terribly obnoxious. I would have been fine if they had the discussion last week with Idra there, I might have even learned something, instead I got "build 3 control groups of infestors!" and "lolnydus". As a zerg player, the whole discussion was terribly insulting. D9 played zerg in BW and plays random in SC2. It's not like he has no clue on how high level zerg play works. BW is a different game, BW zerg is a different race than SC2 zerg. Does the fact that I played Orcs in WC1 mean I understand Protoss? And yes, I would argue that Day9's understanding of zerg is as superficial as that of the other hosts on last night. They need a zerg player that has actually tried all the crap they they've been theorycrafting about, so they don't have such a dumb one-sided argument again. What podcast did you listen to? I already said, for 40 minutes they weren't theorycrafting about zerg. They were talking about balance, mentality, and the structure of the game itself.
Their reasoning for why ZvP was fine was basically "lol 20 infestors" and "lol nydus everywhere", and then a completely retarded comparison to TvZ dropships / scourge.
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On April 14 2011 00:04 LastMan wrote:
no matter how hard they try 2 pro protoss players talking about P v X matchups always will sound biased
I think it's a pity that some people project their own anti-Protoss (or whatever race they may be struggling against) bias on to a different player's relatively objective evaluation and analysis of a PvX situation.
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On April 14 2011 00:32 loveeholicce wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 23:59 The KY wrote:On April 13 2011 23:49 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:37 karpo wrote:On April 13 2011 23:33 Nakas wrote:On April 13 2011 23:18 The KY wrote:
I don't understand what people want them to say in regards to balance. Do you want them to say 'Oh yeah I think Protoss is imbalanced right now.' Where would they go with that discussion? Why do you want to hear it? Will it make you feel better? What, basically, do you want.
And as a player, where do you go from there? Do you go into every ZvP thinking 'well this match up is fucking dumb, looks like I'm gonna lose'. Because that's what IdrA does and it costs him games. It costs him tournaments.
I think Inc put it best when he said 'If you think the game is totally broken, switch to Protoss, I'm sorry.'
I'm just confused because I just got to the bit where they're talking about balance, and people in this thread were acting like they just said 'use nydus l2p noobs'. They're talking about it in genuine detail, outlining their position, but I guess fucking balance whiners are deaf and blind. It's frustrating. I want them to just STFU about zerg when there is no zerg on the show. Listening to a one-sided argument about how PvZ is fine for 40 minutes, from protoss players with only a superficial understanding of zerg, was terribly obnoxious. I would have been fine if they had the discussion last week with Idra there, I might have even learned something, instead I got "build 3 control groups of infestors!" and "lolnydus". As a zerg player, the whole discussion was terribly insulting. D9 played zerg in BW and plays random in SC2. It's not like he has no clue on how high level zerg play works. BW is a different game, BW zerg is a different race than SC2 zerg. Does the fact that I played Orcs in WC1 mean I understand Protoss? And yes, I would argue that Day9's understanding of zerg is as superficial as that of the other hosts on last night. They need a zerg player that has actually tried all the crap they they've been theorycrafting about, so they don't have such a dumb one-sided argument again. What podcast did you listen to? I already said, for 40 minutes they weren't theorycrafting about zerg. They were talking about balance, mentality, and the structure of the game itself. Their reasoning for why ZvP was fine was basically "lol 20 infestors" and "lol nydus everywhere", and then a completely retarded comparison to TvZ dropships / scourge.
And he's probably right. Even in WC3, their ladder seasons would allow players to be invited to events like Blizzcon and the WWI, which was a huge tournament.
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EPT
