EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 767
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Nomadic
United Kingdom312 Posts
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NonY
8751 Posts
Finding out efficient ways to dump the units that don't fit into your 200/200 composition is important as well. I don't mind zergs sticking to a roach heavy composition on their way to getting their 8th gas and 200/200, but they ought to drop or nydus the roaches into a somewhat effective, econ attacking or time buying maneuver, when it's time for those roaches to die to free up supply. We Protoss had to do this a ton in SC1, usually getting a ton of zealots at some point out of absolute necessity, but knowing we would die if we hit 200/200 and sat at 200/200 for more than 30 seconds with a zealot heavy composition. So we dumped them the best way we could. Sometimes in really inefficient ways... but hopefully if they died without killing anything, they were at least buying time. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
I've been ragging on IdrA and Zerg for the past few posts, but I forgot to mention: I really appreciated the discussion of the concept of imbalance, and how the mentality of players and the development of strategies has evolved since Broodwar. Personally, I found it very enlightening, and probably one of the most sophisticated and informative discussions the show has ever had. Kudos. | ||
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On April 14 2011 04:16 Pekkz wrote: How come Idra gets so much hate for his 6 pool? They have allways said he needs to play more unpredictable, and when he does it its suddently giving up? When he made it work against jinro, he was a genius, when it didnt against mc, its like he threw in the towel. Also im fucking tired of the "more nydus infestor" to win as zerg. Its been said since beta and nobody have successfully implemented it as a working strategy that I have seen. I have seen people try it, and it ends up in feedbacked infestors or colosus killing them before they can do their damage. The game is maby balanced if you have two skill capped players. But its not the way it works out in practise. Part A) 6 pool doesn't play to IdrA's strengths and was a poor risk to take in the tourney. Being unpredictable doesn't mean blatant cheese, but it could mean not going roach/hydra/corruptor every single ZvP even when it doesn't work (less true now than it was before). The 6 pool from IdrA felt like a statement, saying "Why play a normal, macro game when I have just as much chance to win or lose in five minutes with a 6 pool?" Part B) it isn't "more nydus infestor" to win as zerg, it's "more nydus infestor" to broaden the horizons of Zerg. Zerg can win just fine with normal, standard play exactly like Terran can win with just marines and tanks... but if Terran never, ever made Banshees, Zerg would never have to look for or worry about them. Similarly, because Zerg very rarely use Nydus, neither Protoss nor Terran have to worry too much about it. The idea behind Zerg discovering other pressure potential is that it does more damage than to just your opponent in that game, but it impacts your opponents' play throughout every future XvZ he plays, forcing him to play defensively, wary of the "new" threat. Just like Zerg blindly spreading out overlords in potential medivac paths, or keeping half an eye on bunkers in his natural, Zerg should force Terran and Protoss to blindly have active scouting on every corner of their base, and set intercept paths for roving overseers, or risk a ton of zerglings on the other side of their wall or some super slow production. | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
On April 14 2011 03:04 hugman wrote: What bothers me a bit about this balance debate is how arbitrary it feels when we've "just" come off of (can you say that?) the beta. The argument the SotG hosts make could be made regardless of how "balanced" the game actually is (what balanced even means is subject onto its own). What if you reverted all the Zerg nerfs, make Roaches 1 supply, 2 armor, reduce Burrow research time to its old 50 secs and on and on? Zergs would start owning Protosses, but the argument you're using now wasn't made in the beta. Reverse the roles the other direction, what if Protoss were killing Zergs during the beta the way they are now, do you think Blizzard wouldn't patch it? Or why weren't you you saying "you should keep dropping his main and killing the Roach Warren so he can't get any Roaches" or something like that during the beta? Do you see how arbitrary it is now? Why even patch anything? Just throw the units in and be done. Leave it all for the players to figure out, and if one year later they haven't, well then I guess you wasted a year of people's time. It is not arbitrary. They all have vested interests whether they acknowledge it/are aware of it or not. | ||
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ABOOMAN
Burma156 Posts
Just like Zerg blindly spreading out overlords in potential medivac paths, or keeps half an eye on bunkers in his natural, Zerg should force Terran and Protoss to blindly have active scouting on every corner of their base, and set intercept paths for roving overseers, or risk a ton of zerglings on the other side of their wall or some super slow production. Yes because having pylons in the base corners is really rare for protoss players. Oh, and i wish medivacs would announce their arrival with the global sound 10 seconds before the drop so i could warp 2 zerglings immediately to kill the dropship | ||
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clik
United States319 Posts
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Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
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garbanzo
United States4046 Posts
On April 14 2011 04:32 Pekkz wrote: What do you do if the protoss just decides to go for your main and crush you? Did you watch the game of grubby vs moon yesterday? Grubby could have won the 3th game if he had just gone streight to Moon's main and not let him rebuild tons of air after moon's heavy all around harass. But he didn't! I don't understand why this is an argument. I'm sure the fact that Moon was all over the place had something to do with why Grubby didn't do what you are suggesting to do. I never really get this argument of "Oh you can't do this because an equally skilled player can just fend it off easily." No player is perfect. The whole point of the game (which is a lot more obvious in BW) is to get your opponent to make mistakes and for you to capitalize on them. To make sure that your opponent is not playing the game they want to play. How often does it happen that the player playing the game they want to play ends up winning the game? If both players are playing their game then it comes down to who makes the first mistake. | ||
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Aegeis
United States1619 Posts
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On April 14 2011 04:37 ABOOMAN wrote: Yes because having pylons in the base corners is really rare for protoss players. Oh, and i wish medivacs would announce their arrival with the global sound 10 seconds before the drop so i could warp 2 zerglings immediately to kill the dropship And Terran wish they didn't have to drop multiple places so the Zerg doesn't just send zerglings there in 0.3 seconds and clean up the medevac with mutalisks a few seconds later, or the Protoss doesn't just warp in four zealots and giggle solemnly to himself. And Protoss wish it wasn't so easy for Zerglings to scout a forward pylon, or for terran to build a bunker on the high ground, or for either race to establish air dominance and shut down Colossus play. We could do this all day. The point isn't that it's easy mode, the point is to punish those who do not prepare for it. Unless you're prepared to claim that every Terran and Protoss above silver league has every inch of their base scouted at all times beyond minute 7, your point is pretty moot. Nydus aren't bad, there are ways to use them effectively and if you can't find ways to use them, the fault is on your end and not the game's. | ||
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
On April 14 2011 04:40 garbanzo wrote: But he didn't! I don't understand why this is an argument. I'm sure the fact that Moon was all over the place had something to do with why Grubby didn't do what you are suggesting to do. I never really get this argument of "Oh you can't do this because an equally skilled player can just fend it off easily." No player is perfect. The whole point of the game (which is a lot more obvious in BW) is to get your opponent to make mistakes and for you to capitalize on them. To make sure that your opponent is not playing the game they want to play. How often does it happen that the player playing the game they want to play ends up winning the game? If both players are playing their game then it comes down to who makes the first mistake. You didnt get my point. If every zerg starts to play like these people suggest, then protoss will ofcourse figure out a counter. That counter in the grubby vs moon game would have been to just fucking kill moon off with his ball. And from watching that game twice, it would have worked. | ||
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PieLieDie
Sweden172 Posts
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the9thdude
United States41 Posts
Let's take another example; zerg player has half the map and has 5-6 bases. Enemy hits base 2 and then the zerg counters and saves it. However, the enemy is hitting base 6 as well, on the other side of the map. Hop into the Nydus network and create a nydus worm at an entrance/choke point; now you've cut off reinforcements and can kill that attack. After you deal with that, you hop back in the worm to the frontlines to push into the main. All of this can be done on creep. No one says Nydus Worms have to be for drops, which is why we have Overlords with drop capabilities. View the Nydus as a form of fast transport and army hiding. Your enemy will never know when and where your army will appear, which will make them reluctant to push into creep. | ||
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GwSC
United States1997 Posts
On April 14 2011 05:01 PieLieDie wrote: that the nydus worm makes a sound even if it spawns out of ur vision has never made any sense to me Yeah I don't understand that either, I think its pretty stupid. Would Nydus somehow be OP without the obnoxious announcement sound? | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On April 14 2011 04:54 Pekkz wrote: You didnt get my point. If every zerg starts to play like these people suggest, then protoss will ofcourse figure out a counter. That counter in the grubby vs moon game would have been to just fucking kill moon off with his ball. And from watching that game twice, it would have worked. Protoss will "ofcourse figure out a counter" to every SINGLE thing a zerg can do it seems. At the same time zergs are just 100% truely surely out of luck and has no chance at all. This is the reason people are tired of this discussion. You can say "but race X can just do Y to win" to every single strat in SC2, yet it isn't that easy while playing. People going at it with the attitude "nothing will ever work, even if i win convicingly it will just be due to luck or bad opponent". | ||
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Thetan
240 Posts
On April 14 2011 03:04 hugman wrote: What bothers me a bit about this balance debate is how arbitrary it feels when we've "just" come off of (can you say that?) the beta. The argument the SotG hosts make could be made regardless of how "balanced" the game actually is (what balanced even means is subject onto its own). What if you reverted all the Zerg nerfs, make Roaches 1 supply, 2 armor, reduce Burrow research time to its old 50 secs and on and on? Zergs would start owning Protosses, but the argument you're using now wasn't made in the beta. Reverse the roles the other direction, what if Protoss were killing Zergs during the beta the way they are now, do you think Blizzard wouldn't patch it? Or why weren't you you saying "you should keep dropping his main and killing the Roach Warren so he can't get any Roaches" or something like that during the beta? Do you see how arbitrary it is now? Why even patch anything? Just throw the units in and be done. Leave it all for the players to figure out, and if one year later they haven't, well then I guess you wasted a year of people's time. If you refuse to evaluate balance based on the current metagame then how can you say that the current SC2 release is better than any random beta version? Blizzard were patching every week! There was no time to truly explore the balance. Again, my point is, what if you undo every single nerf to the Roach and Zergs start owning everyone, how could you justify nerfing it? Why not try to adapt for 6 months or more? What is the definition of "balance"? From listening to the discussion on SotG, you'll know that having "un-winnable" situations doesn't not imply "imbalance". It is only "imbalanced" if you could not do anything to prevent the "un-winnable" situation from occuring. The old roach, old mass reaper builds against zerg, those were "imbalanced": they created un-winnable situations so *early* in the game that it was clear that there was nothing that could be done to prevent those un-winnable situations from occurring (or that the only things that could be done led to an un-winnable situation against any other strategy). Whereas, the "un-winnable situation" talk right now focuses mostly on *lategame* compositions. Until you can show that it is impossible to prevent that un-winnable situation, you cannot claim "imbalance". And that has not yet been shown, as the possibilities of reactions grows exponentially as time increases. You can say that zergs have tried everything vs. the 5-rax reaper rush, and that nothing worked. Because by that time so early in the game, there's only a handful of possible strategies to try. You cannot say that zergs have tried everything vs. late-game protoss/terran. Because by that time, there's millions of strategies that you could've tried to prevent that un-winnable lategame situation. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On April 14 2011 05:07 the9thdude wrote: I look at Nydus worms like highways; they're infrastructure for the zerg army. They allow fast transport of units not just from base to enemy, but base to base, which is their real strength. Take a map like Shakuras Plateau, where it takes a long time to go from one side of the map to the other. Normally, it would take forever to get a drone across the map to take an expo, but using Nydus worms wherever you have sight, you can just load up a single drone and get it there within 5 seconds. Let's take another example; zerg player has half the map and has 5-6 bases. Enemy hits base 2 and then the zerg counters and saves it. However, the enemy is hitting base 6 as well, on the other side of the map. Hop into the Nydus network and create a nydus worm at an entrance/choke point; now you've cut off reinforcements and can kill that attack. After you deal with that, you hop back in the worm to the frontlines to push into the main. All of this can be done on creep. No one says Nydus Worms have to be for drops, which is why we have Overlords with drop capabilities. View the Nydus as a form of fast transport and army hiding. Your enemy will never know when and where your army will appear, which will make them reluctant to push into creep. agreed, even using nydus for defense of your bases would be a good idea. just have one at each of your expansions and you can defend easier | ||
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garbanzo
United States4046 Posts
On April 14 2011 04:54 Pekkz wrote: You didnt get my point. If every zerg starts to play like these people suggest, then protoss will ofcourse figure out a counter. That counter in the grubby vs moon game would have been to just fucking kill moon off with his ball. And from watching that game twice, it would have worked. I got your point. I'm just not as quick to jump to conclusion as you are. My point was that in that game it did work, it might not work in the future, so Moon needs to figure out something else to do. Grubby made a mistake. Moon had a lot to do with forcing that. Grubby might not make that exact mistake again, so Moon will need to capitalize on another mistake. If they both play perfectly, then who knows what would happen. Maybe it truly is imbalanced and Grubby will win everytime, but there's never going to be a perfect game for both sides. | ||
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