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On April 06 2011 15:49 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 15:45 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2011 15:33 dcemuser wrote:On April 06 2011 15:09 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2011 15:00 Bosu wrote:On April 06 2011 14:50 1800STFU wrote:
Idra had alot of really good points....
I dont think the game is broken at all, but was really hoping you'd explore that further. I do think zerg is by far the hardest to play though. Some 30 apm champion toss can 4 gate you and you have to scramble to scout it and make every larva count to put together the proper defense.
I do think zerg is played a bit improperly though....too drone heavy and predictable alot of times. Zerg can reproduce an army pretty much out of nowhere and I think surprises like that need to be explored more. July does this quite a bit and that more aggressive style is something Zerg NEEDS to do more often to prevent 2base turtle deathballs.
Uhh.. 2 base turtle death balls are why zergs like Idra have been so reluctant to play very aggressively. Although balance discussion is quite important to the community, I don't think it should be stressed upon too much. IMO, Blizzard rushing in to change stats based in the whim of the community can be just as bad as Blizzard taking inaction. Matchups can become imbalanced due to new strategies, yet the imbalance can easily swing the other way due to changes in the metagame, not just changes in balance. Of course, it would be damaging to the game if Blizzard waits too long to fix imbalances. However, it can also be damaging and volatile if Blizzard too often introduces too many balance "fixes" that only create more unintended problems. IMO, it's easier to look at one's own play and fix that instead of coercing balance changes that may dissatisfy players of the other 2 races. Balance discussion should still exist, but done in strict moderation since it's effects are greatly exaggerated. Exactly. Brood War has been out for over a decade, and that game still isn't completely "figured out". If Blizzard had come into Brood War in 2001 and gave Terran huge buffs, the game would be completely worthless today because it took multiple years for Terrans to figure out how to be competitive. Actually, Blizzard did buff Terran in their famous patch 1.08. Released in 2001, it was their last official balance patch, with the rest of their patches up until 1.16.1 being non-balance tweaks. + Show Spoiler +TERRAN:
Valkyrie:
- Damage increase to 6 per missile.
- Acceleration and velocity increased slightly.
- Build time decreased.
Science Facility:
- Build time decreased.
- Irradiate research cost increased to 200 minerals, 200 gas.
- Yamato Cannon research cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Missile Turret:
- Decreased cost to 75 minerals.
Factory:
- Charon Missile Booster research cost decreased to 100 minerals, 100 gas.
Dropship:
- Increased speed.
Goliath:
- Increased ground attack range.
Battle Cruiser:
- Build time decreased.
- Supply cost decreased to 6. However, I don't think the patched changed things overnight. Boxer was already in the middle of redefining Terran play by the time the patch was released, and the patch only helped to speed up the metagame stabilization by a bit. Nevertheless, I think it was mainly the players themselves, not the balance patch, that created the BW that we all come to love. Even if 1.08 wasn't released, players would still find a way to stabilize the metagame even with these supposed imbalances. Yeah, I removed that statement because I realized the date was wrong. I was more thinking around late 2001, early 2002, post-1.08-era. And I agree with your statement completely, but... I mean there were a few things that were pretty big (Spawning Pool at 150 minerals... gotta love them 4-pools).
Ah yes. Although the Spawning Pool change was quite significant and needed to be changed, it was one of the more obvious examples of imbalance in the game. I guess even with the 1.08 buffs, Terrans still needed a bit of a revolution before figuring out how to utilize these buffs effectively.
The current imbalances being discussed in SC2 are a ton more subtle and less game-breaking than the 150 mineral Spawning Pool. It's going to be extremely difficult to find the exact balance change that will put Zergs on absolutely equal footing with Protoss and Terran without making them absolutely overpowered should there be a major shift in the metagame. Plus, there are two more expansions coming up, and "fixing" Zerg right now may make balancing those expansions even more volatile and difficult.
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To be honest I feel like Day9 actually has bias toward the position that he takes, that the game isn't figured out and maybe zergs all just need to be more creative instead of crying imbalance. If he comes out and says that he thinks zerg is underpowered it may put off his terran/protoss playing audience. Plus, he wants to promote creative play, even if it is just catz, destiny and a bunch of gold players, because that's what his lower level (majority) audience want to see in the dailies.
Also, even though I do think zerg is at a disadvantage, I don't want to hear commentators talking about it because it can take away from the games. Nobody wants to see a game end and hear Day9 say, "yeah too bad forcefield is so OP or IdrA could've totally held that 4gate."
While I will agree that the late game is far from figured out, there are only so many things you can figure out in the early game where you only have a few options available to you, and that's where zerg is really weak. The fact of the matter is, if some one who has only watched the game and never played, and came to a pro and asked, "Which race should I play? I want to be able to troll practically all my games but still get reasonable results without epic skills," the answer would be, "Well don't play zerg lolol."
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Anyone know if the pregame show was recored&uploaded?
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On April 06 2011 16:15 vyyye wrote:Cheers man! How'd you figure out the link, or find it? Was trying to but had no idea what I should put into the last three digits (after EP33).
I changed it to play as mp3 instead of flv and stumbled on the download button by chance, haha
you might aswell use the mediafire link now anyways unless that screws up the media moguls numbers?
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It's worth noting that even if BW now appears fairly balanced, it's only so incidentally, rather than by design. Blizzard certainly did not foresee the bugs, strategies and maps that would be used to even out the playing field. Now, this is also an argument against balance discussions, but in SC2 it's harder to outplay your opponent to a degree that allows you to overcome inherent imbalances and it certainly seems like zerg has to work quite a bit harder than protoss to win. If, hypothetically, protoss can just a-move to zerg base and zerg can overcome this by complex micro and exact unit composition, is this acceptable because, in a way, it's still balanced? It's also far from certain the game will survive long enough for players to figure out around these issues, if the present issues drag the game down.
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On April 06 2011 16:18 Piski wrote:
Anyone know if the pregame show was recored&uploaded?
there was no pregame they had audio off for the whole thing sadly 
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On April 06 2011 16:11 Gotmog wrote:
Chess has been figured out.
Nope.
For a game to be figured out, it has to be "solved" in a game theoretic fashion. Checkers has been figured out. Chess has not.
And it's worth saying that Checkers was not figured out by a human, but by a computer.
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On April 06 2011 16:05 Blues wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 15:51 Azarkon wrote:On April 06 2011 15:40 GwSC wrote:
Tyler/Day9 have the mindset that talk of imbalance is silly, which is understandable given how young the game is. What I find strange is this feeling of "Zergs need to experiment and find ways to deal with strategy issues instead of looking toward imbalance" that I get from Tyler/Day9's comments.
Doesn't the fact that it almost always falls back on Zerg struggling to deal with the newest powerful T/P strategy point to some fundamental problems with the game? I don't claim to understand the game at anything near the level that they do, but it doesn't seem like this should be the case as often as it is. Considering that the latest patch, which contained balance changes for Zerg, has been out for less than a few weeks, it's not even a matter of the game being young. Zergs are doing something that Tyler/Day9 may well find quite distasteful: acting like they've got SC 2 completely figured out, when BW wasn't (and arguably still isn't) completely figured out after almost ten years. Zergs have certainly looked "fragile" in many of the recent tournaments. But whether this is because of fundamental balance issues, as IdrA contends, or because of the way Zergs have chosen to play, is something that most pros seem to simply agree to disagree on. It's interesting that people keep repeating zergs need to figure stuff out still, as if they were some sort of third world country that can't get their act together as opposed to T/P. The game may be young, but the fact is that most zerg pros keep running into brick walls in terms keeping up with terrans and protoss at the highest levels. It's kinda hard to deny that zerg needs something at this point. Personally, I find zerg opening options severely limited. It's like in every game you are stuck in a sluggish slow tech path that does not allow for much early creativity. At least not much effective early creativity.
See I think there is plenty of room for exploration with Zerg still. Idra can say that Zerg's haven't been winning lately, but look at July. The dude is a beast. I'm sick of hearing, oh he's just doing things at unexpected times. Thats what Zerg is about. They can make such quick tech switches. Day9 touched on it a little bit when he was wondering if there is that timing where you switch from "standard" play to the crazy broodlord, infestor, queen build. There is plenty of options that still are to be discovered and that goes for every race. I tend to think July is playing Zerg in more of a style that it is meant to be played at. Once he decides to attack, he's doing it and swarms of units will just continue to pour out. Its like how Mondragon just sent a ton of roaches to counter the phoenix build. I think there needs to be a mentality change in how Zerg's play the game. The best games I have seen from Idra lately are the ones where is isn't just macro macro macro. Its the ones where he is being aggressive throughout. He didn't think he was doing anything to Huk in the now infamous game at MLG when he was actually pulling ahead.
Like Day9 said, there is plenty of room for exploration in the Zerg race. It just actually needs to be done.
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It's hard to figure something out when you get stomped by a 4 or 6 gate every second game because you were busy figuring out Z lategame...
MLG was "ok" according to most of them? Lol... They are so biased, if this would have been any other tournament they would have ripped to shreds and that for good reason.
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On April 06 2011 16:29 Velr wrote:
It's hard to figure something out when you get stomped by a 4 or 6 gate every second game because you were busy figuring out Z lategame...
MLG was "ok" according to most of them? Lol... They are so biased, if this would have been any other tournament it would have gotten ripped to shreds by them, and that for good reason.
I'm so tired of seeing this. MLG fucked up, we all said that, we all know that. Why the fuck would we spend more time on something people already spent the entire weekend talking about? What do you want us to say other then what has already been said?
I'm sorry for pointing out the few positive aspects of such a negative event. I guess its how I look at things.
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On April 06 2011 16:15 StimmedProbe wrote:I took the long way around haha... dl-ed the FLV file then converted it to an mp3. Here is the dl link to save you some time: http://www.mediafire.com/?918vj0zy88ce5x8edit: the mp3 link is up now on blip, so my link is for the lazy ppl who don't wanna pause and unpause constantly =D
You are a hero 
I got a long long drive ahead of me today, and was hoping to get a version for my phone ^^
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Yeah, add IdrA as a pillar. If NonY can find the time for it as a pro gamer, IdrA can too. The show needs a zerg standpoint, and although people will say idra just complains he brings up a lot of good points and he will have experience at every big tournament.
Also, PLEASE get on Tasteless / Artosis on for a show.. that would be really fun.
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On April 06 2011 16:38 EternaL_9 wrote:
Yeah, add IdrA as a pillar. If NonY can find the time for it as a pro gamer, IdrA can too. The show needs a zerg standpoint, and although people will say idra just complains he brings up a lot of good points and he will have experience at every big tournament.
I'd love to see him as a pillar, but not so much for the zerg viewpoint (it'd be nice, don't get me wrong) as the fact that he just fits with the show's banter, imo. I love all the info and insider information we get on SotG, but I love the casual, fun way it's delivered even more.
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United States13896 Posts
Was thinking about the criticisms of MLG that IdrA and Tyler had of MLG tonight, namely the disproportionate amount of games played by Championship Pool players (only playing 1 match on Day 2), which I think could really be resolved by larger pools and a more even spread of the group play over the first two days. Eliminating Day 2 down time for Championship Pools does seem like a necessity to keep these guys in prime shape going into the most important matches of the weekend on Day 3.
It seems like 8-12 more seeded players into the Championship Pools would help alleviate a lot of things, and without a doubt there are easily 24-28 guys that are good enough to deserve pool seeds. 7 to 8 guys to a group and 6 to 7 Bo3 matches split evenly over two days seems like just the right amount of games for these guys to be playing to stay in a rhythm that doesn't hinder their chances come Day 3 when they need to play more games.
I guess the only drawback to this would be that there would be more conflicts day 2 between matches that are happening simultaneously in the Open Brackets and Pool Play that everyone wants to see, but honestly that's a good problem to have imo, and this issue is outweighed by providing a better playing experience for players (as there will almost always be some good games to chose from to stream on Day 2, and a better experience for the players will always return dividends in better games for the viewers). Hopefully we'll continue to see StarCraft 2 MLG events succeed and give reason for this kind of a change in the future.
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On April 06 2011 16:37 itmeJP wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2011 16:29 Velr wrote:
It's hard to figure something out when you get stomped by a 4 or 6 gate every second game because you were busy figuring out Z lategame...
MLG was "ok" according to most of them? Lol... They are so biased, if this would have been any other tournament it would have gotten ripped to shreds by them, and that for good reason. I'm so tired of seeing this. MLG fucked up, we all said that, we all know that. Why the fuck would we spend more time on something people already spent the entire weekend talking about? What do you want us to say other then what has already been said? I'm sorry for pointing out the few positive aspects of such a negative event. I guess its how I look at things.
This Podcast is about Stracraft, it's scene and it's tournaments. It's obviously not about balance or something like that because everytime that comes up it gets laughed down (which is nothing bad), so what rests? Tournaments, the Scene and everything that goes with it.
Not really talking about MLG or not pointing out it's huge issues is just willfully ignoring something that "hurt" the whole community and probably is on everyones mind anyway.
You want E-Sports to be taken serious? Then blame the people that hurt it accordingly. This tournament was, since the Beta of Starcraft 2, probably the worst thing that ever happened to SC2.
As a spectator there was next to nothing "ok" with this MLG... Well, the few games that actually got casted were good, but it was like watching a few showmatches and not this "big" tournament.
All the other positive things? You could just tell some fairy tale because no one actually could see anything of it. The MLG, even whiteout any of the Stream issues, would have been a bad tournament broadcast (unesessary downtimes, confusing bracket).
You went out and decleared how bad the coinflip tournament was for "E-Sports" and how it's not about the game anymore. While i agree that this wasn't the best Idea when it comes to "promoting" E-Sports it was still a small, fun event that worked and showed probably more games than the entire MLG.
You also are happy pointing out how BO1 Group stages or single elimination is bad at tournaments, well... If the tradeoff is having a tournament no one can follow whiteout constantly refreshing the bracket and following multiple twitters i gladly would have a BO1 single elimination torunament over it ^^.
If this is not a "hot" topic that you should talk about on such a show, what is then?
Yes, you were there and involved with it, you probably heard way to much of it allready and are full of it, but sort of ignoring it because it's not a topic that brings many laughs is also not really the way to go?
It just feels strange when you point out every tournaments faults, sometimes in detail, and here you act blind on purpose?
I like your Podcast (else i would not post here), the last one before this was probably the best ever, but this MLG and everything that went on just belonged in there more than anything else. You spent a whole evening on extended Series but the issues at the actual tournament get next to no airtime? That just feels strange to me.
Well, waiting for next weeks cast .
(Probably i'm too "Swiss"... Bad organisation of such an event is like the worst thing i can imagine and i really can't understand how something like that is even possible).
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What is Tyler trying to say in Ep 33 "You Can't Test A Venues Internet." That's not true on so many levels. You can test it directly before the event starts, load up every PC in the entire place, and do an ISP Stress Test on every single PC at the same time. If the internet holds through it with no errors, BINGO.
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just curious wether or not you'll be uploading the preshow for this weeks sotg jp ?
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Day9 and IdrA Zerg discussion was so funny and awesome
i'm a huge fan of Incontrol and Tyler duo, but man Sean and Greg was so on the ball on this show, i can't wait for the next time both of them are on the show ^^
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why dont zergs get a maxed army with 10 infestors, engage and get 80 infested marines? I think there's way too much of an emphasis on fungal growth.
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On April 06 2011 16:17 IShowUMagic wrote:
To be honest I feel like Day9 actually has bias toward the position that he takes, that the game isn't figured out and maybe zergs all just need to be more creative instead of crying imbalance. If he comes out and says that he thinks zerg is underpowered it may put off his terran/protoss playing audience. Plus, he wants to promote creative play, even if it is just catz, destiny and a bunch of gold players, because that's what his lower level (majority) audience want to see in the dailies.
Wait, so you think Day9 is biased and professional players are not? Pro players want to win, and they preferably want to win as easy as possible - if they feel they can put pressure on people who balance the game to get even a tiniest advantage, they will. Add hordes of lower level players who can't win with the race because they're just bad will hop on the bandwagon, and it becomes really easy to create the illusion that the game is broken and the race is unplayable.
Remember the period when Protoss players had really mediocre results (especially in Korea) and Genius said he would change his race unless it got buffed? It turned out that most Protoss players just
a) Weren't good enough to compete for the top at the time.
b) Didn't have the game as figured out as they do now.
And note that Protoss never got buffed.
The game most definitely isn't figured out. It's not even close. Just the early game in SC2 is even more complex (due to macro mechanics) and has a lot more options and timings than BW early game had. It's a long process, it has been that way in every Blizzard RTS. Only a few brilliant individuals revolutionized their race's gameplay in BW, some of it even took as long as half a decade after the last patch.
Ultimately, the "game is broken" mentality will only hurt you as a player - just like it hurts Idra actually. You will be less good and less successful with that mindset, it's absolutely the wrong mindset for a player to have. It's not a player's job to consider game balance (players tend to be bad at game design anyway).
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EPT
