Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 1876

On December 13 2011 02:00 Velr wrote:
Just listened to the last episode..

Comments..

1: Alltogether really great show, was fun .

2:
I disliked:
The Mech in TvP discussion... It just did not make sense. I mean... I hope I remember this right atm but the argument, in short, went like this:
Artosis: "I think Mech should be the future standard of PvT because if T has some, perfectly composed, 200/200 ball, which is only possible to get on some maps with very specific characteristics, it's hard to counter for Protoss."
Incontrol sais: "No, most Protoss units are to strong against Mech... You don't get that huge/perfect 200/200 ball / you get out expanded like crazy and in the end just roll over and die.... Additionally, don't you think that some high class Progamer would already have exploited this or at least experimented with this already?"
Artosis: The progamers are just lazy and only want fast money (sadface).
Incontrol: "WAT?" *baffled*

If you discuss somethng like this, shouldn't there be something more behind it? I fully agree with incontrols points because, all evidence supports him. Shouldn't the "pro-mech" faction (Artosis and to a lesser extend Day9?) have a little more fire power behind it's arguments?
Right now there is like 0 indication of Mech being truly viable in a ZvP Macrogame?
I did not get how you could go on and off about this so long, but Incontrols resignation was fun and understandable :D.

3:
Talk/discussion about NASL finals:
It just felt weird to hear Tyler talk and talk bringing up valid points as for why it was bad and day9 answer like: "what exactly did you just say the last few minutes?" This happened like twice in a row?
The conclusion/discussion after this was great/fine, this just felt strange?


About the Music copyrights...Could it be, that the cost to play songs is just WAY higher in the US as compared to Sweden or other smaller countries? In the US you basically buy the right to plays that music to 300mio people while in sweden you just buy it for ~9mio.
I mean the price of other broadcasting rights also varies HEAVYLI between countries.

On December 13 2011 03:49 ArtThouAngry wrote:
Personally, my head exploded when watching the last SOTG because of the trash talking of GoOdy from Artosis:
1. Artosis is criticising people saying no one is putting the effort into learning how to play Mech TvP, but then proceeds to trash the one person doing that
2. It is in fact GoOdy's decision making which makes him win all those games (vStephano at Battle in Berlin comes to mind), not any other aspect of his play. His Macro/ multitasking isnt great, but his superior decisions win him games
3. GoOdy is the most accomplished mech player who consistently goes mech in all matchups
4. Artosis didnt substantiate any of his claims at all with any evidence and just claimed that GoOdy is bad
Just my 2 cents

On December 13 2011 03:54 IMoperator wrote:

Yeah I agree, goody's mechanics are like masters level or worse, yet he wins games not because of mech being godlike but because he is a very good strategic player.

On December 13 2011 03:49 ArtThouAngry wrote:
Personally, my head exploded when watching the last SOTG because of the trash talking of GoOdy from Artosis:
1. Artosis is criticising people saying no one is putting the effort into learning how to play Mech TvP, but then proceeds to trash the one person doing that
2. It is in fact GoOdy's decision making which makes him win all those games (vStephano at Battle in Berlin comes to mind), not any other aspect of his play. His Macro/ multitasking isnt great, but his superior decisions win him games
3. GoOdy is the most accomplished mech player who consistently goes mech in all matchups
4. Artosis didnt substantiate any of his claims at all with any evidence and just claimed that GoOdy is bad
Just my 2 cents

On December 13 2011 03:54 IMoperator wrote:

Yeah I agree, goody's mechanics are like masters level or worse, yet he wins games not because of mech being godlike but because he is a very good strategic player.

On December 13 2011 03:57 Lorch wrote:


Sorry but goody is bad, his mechanics are terrible, artosis was a starcraft 1 progamer, the most mechanical demanding game in the world, what do you think his opinion of a player with terrible mechanics is?

Artosis didn't say mech was the best in tvp he was saying that it is underexplored because no one uses it, and that is true. Look at mech in tvt blue flame got nerfed and suddenly all terrans went like "lol nah better go back to marine/tank noaw" and mech still rapes that shit, and only now do most terrans realize this. The only guy going mech has terrible mechanics and still wins games/doesn't die for like an hour with it, so just imagine what a really good pro gamer could do with it.
To an extent I do agree with artosis people always tent to think we have explored everything in this game, when we are sooo far away from this. The fact that the metagame is still highly unstable in almost all the matchups just shows that there is still a lot left to explore, and I feel like mech tvp could be one of those things. Because right now most people are just like "lawl nah chargelot/immortal is just way too good vs any kind of mech". Plus during the phase were everyone tried a lot of stuff ever player was still sooo retardetly bad at this game compared to now. I would honestly not be shocked if, even before hots comes out, there would be the sickest metagame shift towards mech on certain maps in tvp.

On December 13 2011 02:00 Velr wrote:
2:
I disliked:
The Mech in TvP discussion... It just did not make sense. I mean... I hope I remember this right atm but the argument, in short, went like this:
Artosis: "I think Mech should be the future standard of PvT because if T has some, perfectly composed, 200/200 ball, which is only possible to get on some maps with very specific characteristics, it's hard to counter for Protoss."
Incontrol sais: "No, most Protoss units are to strong against Mech... You don't get that huge/perfect 200/200 ball / you get out expanded like crazy and in the end just roll over and die.... Additionally, don't you think that some high class Progamer would already have exploited this or at least experimented with this already?"
Artosis: The progamers are just lazy and only want fast money (sadface).
Incontrol: "WAT?" *baffled*

If you discuss somethng like this, shouldn't there be something more behind it? I fully agree with incontrols points because, all evidence supports him. Shouldn't the "pro-mech" faction (Artosis and to a lesser extend Day9?) have a little more fire power behind it's arguments?
Right now there is like 0 indication of Mech being truly viable in a ZvP Macrogame?
I did not get how you could go on and off about this so long, but Incontrols resignation was fun and understandable :D.

On December 09 2011 03:48 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
day9 is really smart and im constantly impressed with how well he keeps up with strategies, and even sees new strats coming before they hit mainstream. but i think the thing that gave him the extra oomph that made him american champion of BW so many times was his own personal testing and re-testing and re-testing and re-testing. he talks about this method all the time in his dailies, where you essentially make a hypothesis on how to play a certain strat, play it until it fails, then adjust it, play it until it fails, adjust it, as many times as you can before you have to use it in competition. i think that process is something he has very little time for nowadays, so his own personal concrete contributions to strategy are extremely limited. he still comes up with great hypotheses, but without inhuman genius, it's a fact that most hypotheses are going to be simply wrong or in need of a ton of refinement through that process. so he's in an awkward position where he can hardly ever prove anything he says but he's still worth listening to, even though a lot of what he says is going to be (to some extent) wrong. artosis is in a similar boat

and hell, as long me and incontrol are losing, we're in a similar boat too. i think that unless you can point to a pro game where the thing you're saying will work works, you're kinda stuck. either it's proven in competition or it's not

On December 13 2011 02:18 sVnteen wrote:



hm i dont really get your point why the discussion about mech in TvP was bad

i mean they brought it up and discussed it and i think this kind of discussion about the game is awesome because you get much insight and think about stuff that wouldnt have come to your mind

and i think that incontrol is not necessarily right because mech DOES work from time to time TvP and it certainly would work more often if terran players realize how to play it correctly


what i hated about the show was that artosis was bashing GoOdy saying that he is "bad at macroing .... has horrible decision making... just sucks" or something like that

if MVP or some good player would say that im fine with it but artosis is not even close to a level where he could talk badly about a player that already won a lot of tournaments (maybe more than anyone else in sc2) and is competing with the best on a high level (wcg for example)
none of the hosts of SoTG is in a position to critizize a pro player since neither Tyler nor incontrol have comparable results to goody

On December 13 2011 05:02 Hider wrote:



Yes inc is right. Artosis logic is simple and its so annoying that people actualyl think he knows what he is talking about, and understands the game better than the average viewer. He doesn't. (at least not a better understanding than average mater leauge player).

His logic is as follows: IF you play defensive and create a deathball you will in the long run beat the attacking player. In the short run you have to learn how to defend against all his attacks, but eventaully you will learn to defend everything, adn then you will have a 200 deathball and crush him.

However this logic fails on so many levels, its really sad. (and no i am not gonna list all the failures of his logic).

On December 13 2011 05:14 Big J wrote:


And that's exactly why Artosis is sooo much better than people like you and "the average masters player".
Because that IS NOT his logic. Not even in the most simplyfied way. You don't even have a clue to begin with what he is talking about.

On December 13 2011 05:32 Hider wrote:


Your not even trying to come with arguments on why artosis has a higher game understanding.

Have you actualyl ever heard artosis say anything else, than the phrasees "you just have to defend, then you will win". Thats it. There has never been any more to artosis argumentations. Can you prove me wrong?

On December 13 2011 06:23 Big J wrote:


Well I actually did argument why he has a better understanding:
You are not even getting what he is talking about. Of course he is not gonna explain why X is better than Y everytime he casts, as the complexity of it would take a long time just explain the theory behind it, not to even start with argumenting how you can adapt against X and Y while people want to see him talking about what's happening in the game he is actually paid to commentate on.

I'm not gonna say that I understand the full complexity of his thought process, but I agree with him on most things he says (not because I'm a "fanboy", but because I have come to the same or similar conclusions most of the time... which then made me to some kind of "fanboy")
If you want to know why I (I can't say that Artosis has the same thought process getting there) think compositions like Mech, Broodlord/Infestor (generally high tier compositions) and why playing defensive/reactive is usually the better way to go for in the early game and mid game, we can do that per PM, as I really do think that this is quite offtopic here...