EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 1874
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Remb
United States190 Posts
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confusedcrib
United States1307 Posts
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garlicface
Canada4196 Posts
welp mvp wins another tournament and no one at all is surprised .. will be awesome if someone was interviewing him soon  would be even better if it was him and his teammate ... From Twitter. | ||
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Grettin
42416 Posts
On December 11 2011 15:05 garlicface wrote: JP hinting at Mvp and Nestea being on SotG. From Twitter. Posting here also, I just hope they aren't bringing them on tomorrow. Of course, if that is the case.. Isn't tomorrows episode going to be the drunk episode? | ||
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garlicface
Canada4196 Posts
On December 11 2011 15:06 Grettin wrote: Posting here also, I just hope they aren't bringing them on tomorrow. Of course, if that is the case.. Isn't tomorrows episode going to be the drunk episode? Plus with Blizzard Cup I'm not sure the IM manager would want them doing anything but practicing. Who knows though. If they were to come on for the final ep, I think JP would interview them before the hosts started drinking. Again, who knows. | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
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_DarkArchon_
Canada24 Posts
On December 11 2011 15:21 Zzoram wrote: If anything, they [MVP & Nestea] would be at Artosis' place for the interview since they could do it from Korea. Maybe MVP can explain to Artosis why mech isnt viable in TvP and why in his opinion "its is not the future of TvT" (as he stated blatantly in a recent interview). Here is what blows my mind... Theorycrafting aside, Artosis' argument is rediculous. He states that he believes mech might be the superior strategy vs. protoss, and that the reason that we don't see it (aside from Goody) is because the pros see it as too hard to practise and execute properly. If ANY top terran see's what artosis does, they would 100% spend all their energy trying to break the matchup. Its not like MVP is sitting there thinking 'mech is so amazing vs. protoss if I were to master it, it would be a far stronger strategy than the current standard approach'. The fact of the matter is, they DONT see it; they do not share artosis opinion. Is Artosis ignorant/nieve enough to believe he is correct and the very best terrran players in the world are wrong? Does he think that his mind has unravled something that the minds of the world class terrans have not? Give me a break. The reason why we never see mech vs. protoss is because the pros believe it is an INFERIOR strategy, not because they think its to hard to impliment effectively. Poor Geoff, I was sitting there listening, wanting to cut my ears off and I could only imagine how frustrated he must be. | ||
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actionbastrd
Congo598 Posts
On December 11 2011 15:42 _DarkArchon_ wrote: Maybe MVP can explain to Artosis why mech isnt viable in TvP and why in his opinion "its is not the future of TvT" (as he stated blatantly in a recent interview). Here is what blows my mind... Theorycrafting aside, Artosis' argument is rediculous. He states that he believes mech might be the superior strategy vs. protoss, and that the reason that we don't see it (aside from Goody) is because the pros see it as too hard to practise and execute properly. If ANY top terran see's what artosis does, they would 100% spend all their energy trying to break the matchup. Its not like MVP is sitting there thinking 'mech is so amazing vs. protoss if I were to master it, it would be a far stronger strategy than the current standard approach'. The fact of the matter is, they DONT see it; they do not share artosis opinion. Is Artosis ignorant/nieve enough to believe he is correct and the very best terrran players in the world are wrong? Does he think that his mind has unravled something that the minds of the world class terrans have not? Give me a break. The reason why we never see mech vs. protoss is because the pros believe it is an INFERIOR strategy, not because they think its to hard to impliment effectively. Poor Geoff, I was sitting there listening, wanting to cut my ears off and I could only imagine how frustrated he must be. As much as i love artosis, that whole debate made my cringe how he felt like he was so right and there was no other option. It couldnt even be that it was good but slightly weaker, it was just AMAZING and absolutely the best strat ever. EVER. nothing else compares.... And pro gamers are lazy, and its too hard, so they wont do it even tho it could win them games.. That was annoying lol. I feel your frustration during that. I liked how day9 approached it, but artosis just has this high horse sense of, look mech is the greatest in tvt, and pvt, but pro gamers are lazy and its too hard... thats just insulting to the pros lol. | ||
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ApBuLLet
United States604 Posts
On December 11 2011 13:00 Remb wrote: I hate hate hate it when people compare Brood War siege tanks to SC2 siege tanks. SC2 siege tanks are nerfed pea-shooters compared to the BW tank. Watch a BW TvT, and then watch a SC2 TvT where they both go mech. The damage per second difference is frightening, and obvious. Want to know why? SC2 units clump up more due to better pathfinding. So yes, the siege tanks in SC2 seemingly do less damage, but often times they hit a lot more units then SC1 siege tanks. This difference makes them that and only that, different. Because of this difference I don't think you can really say whether they are better or worse unless you are talking about specific situations. All I know is they still melt all my zerglings and hydras well before they actually do anything... sound like SC1 to me! | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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_DarkArchon_
Canada24 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:58 Itsmedudeman wrote: MVP would tell artosis that both bio and mech are good in TvT, and that in TvP it's very difficult to go mech and I don't think artosis would ever be convinced even it came from MVP. lol maybe he would agree if Nestea stated it. MVP sighted that the main reason for mech not being the dominant strategy in TvT was maps sizes. Its very difficult to go mech on maps like Daybreak and Calm Before the Storm. If you mech on maps like these, your opponent WILL out harass and out expand you. The way pro maps are evolving (especially in the GSL) seems to indicate that mech is only going to get weaker. P.S. It was kinda funny when he asked TLO during the latest Dreamhack cast if mech in TvP was good, and TLO just completely shut him down for all the reasons stated in the previous three + pages in this thread. Comon Artosis give it a rest. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On December 11 2011 15:42 _DarkArchon_ wrote: If ANY top terran see's what artosis does, they would 100% spend all their energy trying to break the matchup. Except they really wouldn't. Top players have an important match approximately every two weeks or something (especially if they take trips to foreign tournaments in addition to GSL). They're not just going to commit their time to something which may or may not have long term benefits and then show up for a money match unprepared. SC2 tournament schedule is like a treadmill, it severely hampers players' practice and improvement even if they don't try to deviate and explore new strategies. Moreover, SC2 players also don't have the resources that BW teams have in terms of competent coaches and dedicated practice partners. They don't have iloveoov sitting in the back brainstorming strategies for them, they don't have 5 other competent Terrans at their disposal whose only job is to grind them out in practice. Most of the players manage their own training which is far from ideal. Slayers might be the only exception to this, but even they are only scratching the surface of pro team functionality. In such an environment, players have a major incentive to stick with the "hivemind" of their race, and that is one thing Artosis is definitely right about. It's much easier and time efficient to build and iterate upon an already very developed style of play, fixing the small problems and patching small holes, while at the same time getting more proficient in controlling the same set of units than it is to start at the drawing board and brainstorm the solutions to the (for example) problems that mech play has. When you look back at SC2, most of the major metagame changes happened as a response to balance changes (which is why constantly patching the game blows). So basically players actively looked for different options only when they were left with no other choice. | ||
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_DarkArchon_
Canada24 Posts
On December 11 2011 18:25 Talin wrote: In such an environment, players have a major incentive to stick with the "hivemind" of their race, and that is one thing Artosis is definitely right about. It's much easier and time efficient to build and iterate upon an already very developed style of play, fixing the small problems and patching small holes, while at the same time getting more proficient in controlling the same set of units than it is to start at the drawing board and brainstorm the solutions to the (for example) problems that mech play has. When you look back at SC2, most of the major metagame changes happened as a response to balance changes (which is why constantly patching the game blows). So basically players actively looked for different options only when they were left with no other choice. That is a very fair point, but if that was the sentiment Artosis was trying to relay, he didn't do a great job in communicating it. I can definitely see the "hivemind" factor having an effect (you play MTG don't you). However, if Artosis' theories about the dominance of mech were shared by the pro's, I think that would actually influence the "hivemind" of pros and in turn would force gravitation toward that style. I mean, it is the pro's who innovate (for the most part), and I still believe that if they saw something worth pursing they would indeed pursue it. Nevertheless, your point certainly bears some validity. | ||
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Iamyournoob
Germany595 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:23 actionbastrd wrote: As much as i love artosis, that whole debate made my cringe how he felt like he was so right and there was no other option. It couldnt even be that it was good but slightly weaker, it was just AMAZING and absolutely the best strat ever. EVER. nothing else compares.... And pro gamers are lazy, and its too hard, so they wont do it even tho it could win them games.. That was annoying lol. I feel your frustration during that. I liked how day9 approached it, but artosis just has this high horse sense of, look mech is the greatest in tvt, and pvt, but pro gamers are lazy and its too hard... thats just insulting to the pros lol. I don't think that Incontrol's behaviour was any better in that debate than Artosis' tbh... But that is not the issue, The way one might look at it is that Terran have been doing fine versus Protoss since release. As of late Terran were owning Protosses left and right - something which has changed since the latest patches. As someone said above: "Why change a runnning system?" If you are comfortable going bio and if you win enough vP then why develop a whole new style? The incentive do that is very low, also since the pro players' schedules seem pretty packed. With that in mind and looking at the latest results of PvT, Terrans might try to come up with something mech-style-esque in the future if the winrate pendulum does not swing back. | ||
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thesideshow
930 Posts
On December 11 2011 18:25 Talin wrote: Except they really wouldn't. Top players have an important match approximately every two weeks or something (especially if they take trips to foreign tournaments in addition to GSL). They're not just going to commit their time to something which may or may not have long term benefits and then show up for a money match unprepared. SC2 tournament schedule is like a treadmill, it severely hampers players' practice and improvement even if they don't try to deviate and explore new strategies. This. I feel that this is the point that artosis needed to put forward, but didn't. I also sort of disagree with Geoff point that "pros are using the best strategy available". If that's the case, wouldn't the game already be in the most developed state, and therefore we'll never ever see any metagame shifts? | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On December 11 2011 18:19 _DarkArchon_ wrote: lol maybe he would agree if Nestea stated it. MVP sighted that the main reason for mech not being the dominant strategy in TvT was maps sizes. Its very difficult to go mech on maps like Daybreak and Calm Before the Storm. If you mech on maps like these, your opponent WILL out harass and out expand you. The way pro maps are evolving (especially in the GSL) seems to indicate that mech is only going to get weaker. P.S. It was kinda funny when he asked TLO during the latest Dreamhack cast if mech in TvP was good, and TLO just completely shut him down for all the reasons stated in the previous three + pages in this thread. Comon Artosis give it a rest. Actually, I think it's pretty good on CBTS and Daybreak for TvT. Short maps like lost temple actually make it hard because 1 base pushes are pretty damn impossible to stop with just helions and vikings. TDA is a hard mech map too... | ||
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crown77
United States157 Posts
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champy
Sweden33 Posts
Edit: or 2 1v1's: artosis vs day9 tyler vs incontrol | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
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FoxyMayhem
624 Posts
On December 12 2011 05:14 champy wrote: Suggestion for getting number of viewers up to 30-40k: 2v2, tyler and day9 vs incontrol and jp, destiny + husky casting. Yeah I'm pretty sure that would do it. Is there a way we can fit IdrA in there somewhere? | ||
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