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On December 09 2011 12:07 iaguz wrote:
Aye, but units in BW moved inefficiently too. Big bulky stupid fucking dragoons getting in each others way hampers the effectiveness of that army quite a bit. Not sure if the two cancel each other out necessarily though.
It's also worth noting that the 70 damage tank round did full damage to a zealots shields but only half afterwards. So they're still better then SC2 tanks dammit!
3 supply is the biggest thing in my opinion.
that makes such a huge difference.
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Hmm.. Kinda unfortunate nobody made a "Mech vs Protoss" thread in SC2 Strategy. Gonna make it hard for JP & Co to find all the suggestions for what to do if they hit 40k 
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Many people say that it's impossible to go mech against protoss because protoss can get 8 bases, and just rape terran when they move out.
What about ZvT? I don't know how many times I've seen a meching terran be behind 3 bases against a zerg and win.... Protoss is not going to have 8 bases, firstly their map control is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than zerg, their army mobility (with exception of blinkstalker) is significantly worse than zerg. I don't see how incontrol, or anyone can say that protoss will be up 4 bases on a meching terran, but when the data clearly shows that it doesn't even happen in ZvT that often...
EDIT: Now whether or not mech is viable in a final 200/200 vs 200/200 battle is a different story. But I don't see there being a problem getting to a 200/200 mech army......
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Because Mech units are so much better then Zerg units then they are against Protoss units.
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On December 09 2011 12:26 wei2coolman wrote:
Many people say that it's impossible to go mech against protoss because protoss can get 8 bases, and just rape terran when they move out.
What about ZvT? I don't know how many times I've seen a meching terran be behind 3 bases against a zerg and win.... Protoss is not going to have 8 bases, firstly their map control is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than zerg, their army mobility (with exception of blinkstalker) is significantly worse than zerg. I don't see how incontrol, or anyone can say that protoss will be up 4 bases on a meching terran, but when the data clearly shows that it doesn't even happen in ZvT that often...
I believe the difference is in that Protoss units are more cost-efficient when compared to Zerg units; 60 supply worth of Zerg coming back at you versus 60 supply worth of Protoss is much different. Also, compare the ability of speedlings and chargelots in 'closing' with a tank line, burrow roaches and blink stalkers, etcetc.
This is just my mild 2c
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On December 09 2011 12:26 wei2coolman wrote:
Many people say that it's impossible to go mech against protoss because protoss can get 8 bases, and just rape terran when they move out.
What about ZvT? I don't know how many times I've seen a meching terran be behind 3 bases against a zerg and win.... Protoss is not going to have 8 bases, firstly their map control is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than zerg, their army mobility (with exception of blinkstalker) is significantly worse than zerg. I don't see how incontrol, or anyone can say that protoss will be up 4 bases on a meching terran, but when the data clearly shows that it doesn't even happen in ZvT.
... Because Mech is much more cost effective against Zerg then it is against protoss. Its alot easier to deny expansions and to push out against zerg with Mech then it is against protoss... Hellions dont take map control against stalkers like they do against zerglings. You cant actually cancel a nexus or anything unless you commit your army, go read Jinro et al's post on the matter. Its not hard to take bases against an opponent that has to turtle perfectly or die, and actually cant prevent expansions.
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On December 09 2011 12:30 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 12:26 wei2coolman wrote:
Many people say that it's impossible to go mech against protoss because protoss can get 8 bases, and just rape terran when they move out.
What about ZvT? I don't know how many times I've seen a meching terran be behind 3 bases against a zerg and win.... Protoss is not going to have 8 bases, firstly their map control is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than zerg, their army mobility (with exception of blinkstalker) is significantly worse than zerg. I don't see how incontrol, or anyone can say that protoss will be up 4 bases on a meching terran, but when the data clearly shows that it doesn't even happen in ZvT. ... Because Mech is much more cost effective against Zerg then it is against protoss. Its alot easier to deny expansions and to push out against zerg with Mech then it is against protoss... Hellions dont take map control against stalkers like they do against zerglings. You cant actually cancel a nexus or anything unless you commit your army, go read Jinro et al's post on the matter. Its not hard to take bases against an opponent that has to turtle perfectly or die, and actually cant prevent expansions.
Could a cloak banshee offer such map control? I think so.
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On December 09 2011 12:34 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 12:30 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote:On December 09 2011 12:26 wei2coolman wrote:
Many people say that it's impossible to go mech against protoss because protoss can get 8 bases, and just rape terran when they move out.
What about ZvT? I don't know how many times I've seen a meching terran be behind 3 bases against a zerg and win.... Protoss is not going to have 8 bases, firstly their map control is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than zerg, their army mobility (with exception of blinkstalker) is significantly worse than zerg. I don't see how incontrol, or anyone can say that protoss will be up 4 bases on a meching terran, but when the data clearly shows that it doesn't even happen in ZvT. ... Because Mech is much more cost effective against Zerg then it is against protoss. Its alot easier to deny expansions and to push out against zerg with Mech then it is against protoss... Hellions dont take map control against stalkers like they do against zerglings. You cant actually cancel a nexus or anything unless you commit your army, go read Jinro et al's post on the matter. Its not hard to take bases against an opponent that has to turtle perfectly or die, and actually cant prevent expansions. Could a cloak banshee offer such map control? I think so.
A banshee with cloak doesnt do very much, past 2 bases, if your forcing a cannon at each base and a couple extra obs thats pretty much the extent of that.
However banshees can be pretty effective in sky terran where you go heavy banshee + vikings/raven to snipe obs and use hellions and mass harrass on expansions, otherwise A banshee with cloak doesnt do very much, Im not as familiar with it but I do beleive it has its own issues.
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Also, the thing about Protoss mass expanding is because with around 3 cannons you cannot hellion harass that expansion anymore. So you're left with either dropping tanks to harass a base which is a fun way to throw away perfectly good tanks (that don't even 1 shot probes like they did in Broodwar) or using banshee harass which you can either use cannons or warp in blink stalkers to stop.
When you play Bio you can drop marauders which shit all over cannons so Protoss have to be conservative with their expansion timings. This is not a luxury shared by mech.
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On December 09 2011 12:44 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 12:34 wei2coolman wrote:On December 09 2011 12:30 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote:On December 09 2011 12:26 wei2coolman wrote:
Many people say that it's impossible to go mech against protoss because protoss can get 8 bases, and just rape terran when they move out.
What about ZvT? I don't know how many times I've seen a meching terran be behind 3 bases against a zerg and win.... Protoss is not going to have 8 bases, firstly their map control is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than zerg, their army mobility (with exception of blinkstalker) is significantly worse than zerg. I don't see how incontrol, or anyone can say that protoss will be up 4 bases on a meching terran, but when the data clearly shows that it doesn't even happen in ZvT. ... Because Mech is much more cost effective against Zerg then it is against protoss. Its alot easier to deny expansions and to push out against zerg with Mech then it is against protoss... Hellions dont take map control against stalkers like they do against zerglings. You cant actually cancel a nexus or anything unless you commit your army, go read Jinro et al's post on the matter. Its not hard to take bases against an opponent that has to turtle perfectly or die, and actually cant prevent expansions. Could a cloak banshee offer such map control? I think so. A banshee with cloak doesnt do very much, past 2 bases, if your forcing a cannon at each base and a couple extra obs thats pretty much the extent of that. However banshees can be pretty effective in sky terran where you go heavy banshee + vikings/raven to snipe obs and use hellions and mass harrass on expansions, otherwise A banshee with cloak doesnt do very much, Im not as familiar with it but I do beleive it has its own issues.
Does it make muta's any less effective that there are cannons or missle turret? Or voidrays any less viable against spore crawler? Or Hellions less effective against spine crawler?
I think banshees can definitely be viable way of keeping protoss in their base, or if anything lower their map control.
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On December 09 2011 12:51 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 12:44 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote:On December 09 2011 12:34 wei2coolman wrote:On December 09 2011 12:30 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote:On December 09 2011 12:26 wei2coolman wrote:
Many people say that it's impossible to go mech against protoss because protoss can get 8 bases, and just rape terran when they move out.
What about ZvT? I don't know how many times I've seen a meching terran be behind 3 bases against a zerg and win.... Protoss is not going to have 8 bases, firstly their map control is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than zerg, their army mobility (with exception of blinkstalker) is significantly worse than zerg. I don't see how incontrol, or anyone can say that protoss will be up 4 bases on a meching terran, but when the data clearly shows that it doesn't even happen in ZvT. ... Because Mech is much more cost effective against Zerg then it is against protoss. Its alot easier to deny expansions and to push out against zerg with Mech then it is against protoss... Hellions dont take map control against stalkers like they do against zerglings. You cant actually cancel a nexus or anything unless you commit your army, go read Jinro et al's post on the matter. Its not hard to take bases against an opponent that has to turtle perfectly or die, and actually cant prevent expansions. Could a cloak banshee offer such map control? I think so. A banshee with cloak doesnt do very much, past 2 bases, if your forcing a cannon at each base and a couple extra obs thats pretty much the extent of that. However banshees can be pretty effective in sky terran where you go heavy banshee + vikings/raven to snipe obs and use hellions and mass harrass on expansions, otherwise A banshee with cloak doesnt do very much, Im not as familiar with it but I do beleive it has its own issues. Does it make muta's any less effective that there are cannons or missle turret? Or voidrays any less viable against spore crawler? Or Hellions less effective against spine crawler? I think banshees can definitely be viable way of keeping protoss in their base, or if anything lower their map control.
Does it make muta's any less effective that there are cannons or missle turret?
Uh, yes? you dont have to dedicate as much units... if Terran wants to push out they throw up more turrets.
If you have well placed crawlers you get your third up because your queen has a safe haven against pheonixs..
Hellions dont get to wipe out the entire mineral so yes, and it buys time against marine drops for you to save your expansion or force a double drop.
You get 1 cannon per mineral + a pylon for warping in 2 stalkers to chase a banshee away, thats not a major investment for a protoss that has control of the map because he has an obs for his army. Banshees wont control the map unless protoss actually doesnt have any detection with his army.
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On December 09 2011 12:30 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 12:26 wei2coolman wrote:
Many people say that it's impossible to go mech against protoss because protoss can get 8 bases, and just rape terran when they move out.
What about ZvT? I don't know how many times I've seen a meching terran be behind 3 bases against a zerg and win.... Protoss is not going to have 8 bases, firstly their map control is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than zerg, their army mobility (with exception of blinkstalker) is significantly worse than zerg. I don't see how incontrol, or anyone can say that protoss will be up 4 bases on a meching terran, but when the data clearly shows that it doesn't even happen in ZvT. ... Because Mech is much more cost effective against Zerg then it is against protoss. Its alot easier to deny expansions and to push out against zerg with Mech then it is against protoss... Hellions dont take map control against stalkers like they do against zerglings. You cant actually cancel a nexus or anything unless you commit your army, go read Jinro et al's post on the matter. Its not hard to take bases against an opponent that has to turtle perfectly or die, and actually cant prevent expansions.
With all due respect to Jinro his list of objections seemed a little odd
Until a single warp prism makes it into your base and you cant fend it off without sending your entire army.
Until a protoss blinks into your main and snipes every addon.
Until a protoss tech switches to carriers and then back to ground.
Until you lose a 200/200 fight and by the time he's at your front door, remaxed, your first reinforcement wave of units has not even finished.
Until a mothership recalls immortals into your main and you have to engage immortals unsieged up a ramp. (btw, if you recall over an unpassable area like water the fucking units will show up on land, if you are close enough - had that happen when I had a perfect turret ring setup and god damn HerO recalled over the water and everything ended up inside my main)
Until you realize that tanks take 11 shots to kill an archon.
Until you realize that tanks get raped by colossi unless you are maxed out.
Until you realize that there is 0 ways to kill an expansion because of how good warp in is, without commiting your entire army.
This list looks like a list of "here are a bunch of games i lost" not a list of "these are unsolvable problems".
Vikings, banshess, sensor towers and good turret placement should be capable of denying warp prims without "sending your entire army". Ravens and turrets could also shut this down in an emergency. people say "keep HT in your min lines" for protoss and mutas. Why not keep some ravens around?
blinking into your main requires a path to get to the cliff edge. again, sensor towers, PF's to deny pathways, etc. surely this can be done.
protoss tech switches into carriers, loses them all and tech switches back to ground. really? this is a problem? 450/300 per carrier, plus all those stargates, the fleet beacon, the interceptor upgrade, (air ups?) and you lost more than him...
yes, losing a 200/200 fight is really really bad for mech. this is a universal truth in all matchups. TvT mech vs bio has this problem.
the MOTHERSHIP fucking SNUCK AROUND THE BACK. I'm not sure what to say to this one. It's like the ogre pickpocket.
11 tank shots to kill an archon. and more to kill an immortal. maybe open ghost into mech? i dunno, obviously chargelot archon is going to be a problem. EMP? turrets as a temporary wall?
siege tanks out range colossus and you've got vikings and banshees spotting, which are pretty good at killing colossus. that sounds like protoss had better positioning or angle?
viking harass, blue flame hellion drops. nexus arn't hatches, killing it is better sure, but if they can't mine it's almost as good. once the protoss hits 200/200 they can't warp in anymore at all. Ravens are pretty good at harassing. dump turrets and go home. warp away, more turret fodder. Why is this viable for infestors but not ravens?
yes, mech faces a huuuuge amount of difficulty.
I'm not saying jinro is wrong or that mech in TvP is viable. I'm just saying when I look at that list I don't see a "reason for mech never working", i see "reasons he lost those games".
The fact that he or any pro terran player has stuck with mech in TvP that long implies that it's not a batshit crazy idea as some people would assert. The fact that they had little or no success with it implies it's really fucking hard to pull off.
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On December 09 2011 13:39 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 12:30 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote:On December 09 2011 12:26 wei2coolman wrote:
Many people say that it's impossible to go mech against protoss because protoss can get 8 bases, and just rape terran when they move out.
What about ZvT? I don't know how many times I've seen a meching terran be behind 3 bases against a zerg and win.... Protoss is not going to have 8 bases, firstly their map control is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than zerg, their army mobility (with exception of blinkstalker) is significantly worse than zerg. I don't see how incontrol, or anyone can say that protoss will be up 4 bases on a meching terran, but when the data clearly shows that it doesn't even happen in ZvT. ... Because Mech is much more cost effective against Zerg then it is against protoss. Its alot easier to deny expansions and to push out against zerg with Mech then it is against protoss... Hellions dont take map control against stalkers like they do against zerglings. You cant actually cancel a nexus or anything unless you commit your army, go read Jinro et al's post on the matter. Its not hard to take bases against an opponent that has to turtle perfectly or die, and actually cant prevent expansions. With all due respect to Jinro his list of objections seemed a little odd Show nested quote +Until a single warp prism makes it into your base and you cant fend it off without sending your entire army.
Until a protoss blinks into your main and snipes every addon.
Until a protoss tech switches to carriers and then back to ground.
Until you lose a 200/200 fight and by the time he's at your front door, remaxed, your first reinforcement wave of units has not even finished.
Until a mothership recalls immortals into your main and you have to engage immortals unsieged up a ramp. (btw, if you recall over an unpassable area like water the fucking units will show up on land, if you are close enough - had that happen when I had a perfect turret ring setup and god damn HerO recalled over the water and everything ended up inside my main)
Until you realize that tanks take 11 shots to kill an archon.
Until you realize that tanks get raped by colossi unless you are maxed out.
Until you realize that there is 0 ways to kill an expansion because of how good warp in is, without commiting your entire army. This list looks like a list of "here are a bunch of games i lost" not a list of "these are unsolvable problems". Vikings, banshess, sensor towers and good turret placement should be capable of denying warp prims without "sending your entire army". Ravens and turrets could also shut this down in an emergency. people say "keep HT in your min lines" for protoss and mutas. Why not keep some ravens around? blinking into your main requires a path to get to the cliff edge. again, sensor towers, PF's to deny pathways, etc. surely this can be done. protoss tech switches into carriers, loses them all and tech switches back to ground. really? this is a problem? 450/300 per carrier, plus all those stargates, the fleet beacon, the interceptor upgrade, (air ups?) and you lost more than him... yes, losing a 200/200 fight is really really bad for mech. this is a universal truth in all matchups. TvT mech vs bio has this problem. the MOTHERSHIP fucking SNUCK AROUND THE BACK. I'm not sure what to say to this one. It's like the ogre pickpocket. 11 tank shots to kill an archon. and more to kill an immortal. maybe open ghost into mech? i dunno, obviously chargelot archon is going to be a problem. EMP? turrets as a temporary wall? siege tanks out range colossus and you've got vikings and banshees spotting, which are pretty good at killing colossus. that sounds like protoss had better positioning or angle? viking harass, blue flame hellion drops. nexus arn't hatches, killing it is better sure, but if they can't mine it's almost as good. once the protoss hits 200/200 they can't warp in anymore at all. Ravens are pretty good at harassing. dump turrets and go home. warp away, more turret fodder. Why is this viable for infestors but not ravens? yes, mech faces a huuuuge amount of difficulty. I'm not saying jinro is wrong or that mech in TvP is viable. I'm just saying when I look at that list I don't see a "reason for mech never working", i see "reasons he lost those games". The fact that he or any pro terran player has stuck with mech in TvP that long implies that it's not a batshit crazy idea as some people would assert. The fact that they had little or no success with it implies it's really fucking hard to pull off.
Again, you have ravens, banshees and vikings as well as ghosts, a major issue is getting the gas to get these things on maps like Tal Darim if your making tanks.
And did you even read the bit about the mothership WARPING IN OVER WATER, INTO JINROS BASE? Like seriously.
You advocate all these things like turret rings + sensor towers and raven harrass and then blithly assume protoss doesnt make cannons, warp shit in or is actually in a position to create 3 different armies when you give up control of the game and they take the map. All those nice little things you assume terran can do on finite resources... Protoss actually gets too.
QUOTE]On October 03 2011 07:25 Beren wrote:
On October 03 2011 07:17 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 06:50 avilo wrote:On October 03 2011 06:47 mcc wrote:On October 03 2011 06:13 avilo wrote:On October 03 2011 05:54 Quotidian wrote:
I wish the OP never mentioned "micro" in this context, because how fast someone a-clicks and presses s/h isn't what makes a match up fun to watch or interesting to play, regardless of whether there are tanks on the map or not. Like what has been stated already, the fact that tanks aren't viable in tvp means that there is no fighting for position. It's all just mashing two lumps of groups together and hoping you do whatever magical thing it is that you need to do in order to win engagements.
I think tvp is going to remain a really lame match up throughout the life of SC2 and all its expansions. No way are Blizzard going to remove warp gate tech, even though the game would be much better off if they did. Blizzard also has this really flawed design mentality of wanting to cater to every style of play, via map size/style (rush vs marco). This basically means that it is impossible to balance the tank properly. A 60-70 damage per round siege tank is broken on rush maps, and a 35 (+15) damage tank is too weak on a "macro" map the size of tal darim, where you don't always want all your tanks in one big ball, but rather have smaller groups of units in different key locations. 2 siege tanks protecting an expo isn't a deterrent to any of the races at the moment.
Seriously, the way protoss is designed really makes me want to make an RTS mod for DOTA2 or something - just take the advances blizzard made over BW and disregard all the retarded stuff. The siege tank was balanced in beta against protoss. You could build them and it was worthwhile to go mech. And viable. It was only "impossible to balance" on retardedly designed maps such as steppes of war where it takes about 5 seconds to cross the entire map, along with being 3 siege tank shot lengths away from your opponent's natural... I remember being one of the first/few in beta to be playing mech/ghostmech against protoss, and i would have sick macro games where tanks actually didn't get insta-gibbed and holding a position actually meant something. Protoss had to be smart like in brood war to engage you, not just "hello 1A into your tank line at any angle i want to and come out ahead." As it stands right now, you cannot hold a position with mech like you could in the beta because of the tank nerf. Protoss actually feared your tanks and if they played bad (and most did because they apparently all forgot their brood war skills) then they were punished for 1Aing in bad positions/bad spots. As of now, protoss is not punished for you gaining a better position on them because siege tanks just tickle their units, or you can mass collosus+blink stalker and walk around their army 100% of the time and base trade with DTS + warpgates + sniping the remaining orbitals = protoss win. With the recent hellion nerf, TvT is back to more of "I build more marines than you." How anyone can not see that this is horrible for SC2 is beyond me. It's just another nerf that makes positioning mean less, and micro mean less. Because now TvT for example, you can mass marines and come out ahead due to the extra shots hellion take on marines. Marines easily will out dps every other unit and the only micro required? Pre-spread into an arc and 1A. Mech actually took forethought, overarching strategy, spotting, and positioning that is difficult, very difficult (ala brood war difficulty) for a player to learn. With bio, you can blindly run in, and as long as you make an arc, you are good to go no matter how intricate or good your opponent's positioning was, because that's how bio plays. Bio plays very linearly "make more of these tier1 units, throw them at your opponent for gain, when they die, make more and do it again. If you have less you lose, when you have more u win." Siege tanks on the other hand, if they had their beta damage back, and you had a few on a cliff, it's not suddenly "i do not have an equal army supply to the protoss so i'm going to die 100%" but it is "i have better position, if he runs up he's going to lose more units than it is worth." Right now, 99% of the time tanks do not scare protoss because they had their balls removed, so instead of beta where you could hold that position with tanks and protoss would HAVE to back off, they instead 1A into your tanks or blink into them or charge or whatever and they trade cost effectively and will always come out ahead. It's why mech is not viable in TvP. And don't cite goody as an example. Just because you can do something and it will work against lower tiered protosses or once in a best out of 5, does not mean you should 100% of the time. There are Terran players with 10x better multi-tasking that don't queue up 5 tanks in one factory and 5 SCVS in one CC that still get thrashed by protosses when they try to mech and it's not because they're doing it any less better than goody or anyone else. It's disheartening really just how bad mech is in TvP. =/ also keep in mind one of the key ways mech had to harrass protoss was with blue flame hellions that actually could kill workers. Now it is worthless to even try that because they 3 shot workers, it's the difference between successful harass and killing 2 probes and having protoss laugh at you for wasting the resources while their 1A ball just grew in size for free. As for the hellion nerf, I think the problem is that it is one of the worst designed units in SC2 that do not fit in the game. Unlike vultures, with reasonable amount of luck(opponent just slightly misclicks) 2 bf hellions could kill even 25+ workers in one shot, now you need 3  . And the killcount was too dependent on luck as compared to micro/planning. In already fragile game this makes it even worse. Ah, the people that were really good at hellion harrass micro'd their hellions very good. You had to time shots perfectly to get the max amount of kills. Also, how is something like that bad for SC2? SC1 had the reaver, it had psi storm, lurker shots, spider mines that all served the same function as a blue flame hellion shot that can 2 shot workers. SC2 has banelings still, collosus, storm still, but they all require a lot less micro and simple 1A. A 2 shot blue flame hellion was perfectly fine, you should feel threatened by such a unit, just like you would be threatened by a reaver in your mineral line. As of the last patch, it simply isn't as threatening anymore. It's also funny you would argue that hellions are "luck based" as you can control the shot with good micro and waiting for the "line em up." Reavers scarabs and spider mines literally were things that did have random luck influence them. So you can actually say something like the SC2 hellion is less of a luck influenced unit then the vulture was...pretty crazy isn't it? By luck based I did not mean that by better control you could not get better results, just that even with terrible control you could get the same results with luck and with bf hellions it happened quite often. Also saying bf hellion 2-shots workers is slightly misleading as it could 2-shot workers, but it could also 2-shot whole mineral line And investing into reaver/lurker drop(other way to get them into position)/storm drop is slightly more expensive than bf hellion especially compared to results. And I know about intelligence of scarabs(or mines) but the actual act of reaver dropping well is much more skill based and the loss of reaver(+shuttle eventually) is more painful, again especially compared to possible results. But those are just opinions, my point was that bf hellion harass damage is too loosely correlated with the skill of the harass, it is still correlated, but too little. And just to note even after patch bf hellion harass is still threatening, just not in TvP, but that was mostly the case even before the patch. Also I would argue that compared to all other harass options that you mentioned in SC2 being perceptive and aware and running your workers is good enough defense. Not so much for hellions.
I think that was the problem with them. They were just SO powerful and yet so cheap. So I agree, they needed a change they are now still very powerful if you want to drop helions you just need to invest more for the same potential return.[/QUOTE]
Thats Avilos thoughts
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On December 09 2011 03:48 Crushgroove wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 00:08 NPF wrote:On December 08 2011 16:25 Koshi wrote:
40.000 viewers.
Following 3 groups will each cast a game of another team and will play against each other in a Bo3 Random Race.
Day[9] vs Tasteless casted by Artosis+Tyler
Artosis vs Tyler casted by iNcontroL+JP
iNcontroL vs JP casted by Day[9]+Tasteless This a thousand times. But throw in a Tasteless vs Artosis off racing with Artosis Zerg and Nick Terran. Just so they play the opposing races of there game knowledge. Since I'm guessing Nick knows Protoss + Zerg and Dan Protoss + Terran. Dan played Zerg through the entire beta and the first 3 months of release....
and tasteless played terran ;p
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On December 09 2011 14:04 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:39 Kharnage wrote:On December 09 2011 12:30 KnightwhoSaysNI wrote:On December 09 2011 12:26 wei2coolman wrote:
Many people say that it's impossible to go mech against protoss because protoss can get 8 bases, and just rape terran when they move out.
What about ZvT? I don't know how many times I've seen a meching terran be behind 3 bases against a zerg and win.... Protoss is not going to have 8 bases, firstly their map control is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than zerg, their army mobility (with exception of blinkstalker) is significantly worse than zerg. I don't see how incontrol, or anyone can say that protoss will be up 4 bases on a meching terran, but when the data clearly shows that it doesn't even happen in ZvT. ... Because Mech is much more cost effective against Zerg then it is against protoss. Its alot easier to deny expansions and to push out against zerg with Mech then it is against protoss... Hellions dont take map control against stalkers like they do against zerglings. You cant actually cancel a nexus or anything unless you commit your army, go read Jinro et al's post on the matter. Its not hard to take bases against an opponent that has to turtle perfectly or die, and actually cant prevent expansions. With all due respect to Jinro his list of objections seemed a little odd Until a single warp prism makes it into your base and you cant fend it off without sending your entire army.
Until a protoss blinks into your main and snipes every addon.
Until a protoss tech switches to carriers and then back to ground.
Until you lose a 200/200 fight and by the time he's at your front door, remaxed, your first reinforcement wave of units has not even finished.
Until a mothership recalls immortals into your main and you have to engage immortals unsieged up a ramp. (btw, if you recall over an unpassable area like water the fucking units will show up on land, if you are close enough - had that happen when I had a perfect turret ring setup and god damn HerO recalled over the water and everything ended up inside my main)
Until you realize that tanks take 11 shots to kill an archon.
Until you realize that tanks get raped by colossi unless you are maxed out.
Until you realize that there is 0 ways to kill an expansion because of how good warp in is, without commiting your entire army. This list looks like a list of "here are a bunch of games i lost" not a list of "these are unsolvable problems". Vikings, banshess, sensor towers and good turret placement should be capable of denying warp prims without "sending your entire army". Ravens and turrets could also shut this down in an emergency. people say "keep HT in your min lines" for protoss and mutas. Why not keep some ravens around? blinking into your main requires a path to get to the cliff edge. again, sensor towers, PF's to deny pathways, etc. surely this can be done. protoss tech switches into carriers, loses them all and tech switches back to ground. really? this is a problem? 450/300 per carrier, plus all those stargates, the fleet beacon, the interceptor upgrade, (air ups?) and you lost more than him... yes, losing a 200/200 fight is really really bad for mech. this is a universal truth in all matchups. TvT mech vs bio has this problem. the MOTHERSHIP fucking SNUCK AROUND THE BACK. I'm not sure what to say to this one. It's like the ogre pickpocket. 11 tank shots to kill an archon. and more to kill an immortal. maybe open ghost into mech? i dunno, obviously chargelot archon is going to be a problem. EMP? turrets as a temporary wall? siege tanks out range colossus and you've got vikings and banshees spotting, which are pretty good at killing colossus. that sounds like protoss had better positioning or angle? viking harass, blue flame hellion drops. nexus arn't hatches, killing it is better sure, but if they can't mine it's almost as good. once the protoss hits 200/200 they can't warp in anymore at all. Ravens are pretty good at harassing. dump turrets and go home. warp away, more turret fodder. Why is this viable for infestors but not ravens? yes, mech faces a huuuuge amount of difficulty. I'm not saying jinro is wrong or that mech in TvP is viable. I'm just saying when I look at that list I don't see a "reason for mech never working", i see "reasons he lost those games". The fact that he or any pro terran player has stuck with mech in TvP that long implies that it's not a batshit crazy idea as some people would assert. The fact that they had little or no success with it implies it's really fucking hard to pull off. Again, you have ravens, banshees and vikings as well as ghosts, a major issue is getting the gas to get these things on maps like Tal Darim if your making tanks. And did you even read the bit about the mothership WARPING IN OVER WATER, INTO JINROS BASE? Like seriously. You advocate all these things like turret rings + sensor towers and raven harrass and then blithly assume protoss doesnt make cannons, warp shit in or is actually in a position to create 3 different armies when you give up control of the game and they take the map. All those nice little things you assume terran can do on finite resources... Protoss actually gets too.
Of course i read the part where the mothership warped in untis over water. Is this really a situation that happens so often and is viable on so many maps that it utterly breaks TvP mech? The mothership is big, it's slow, it dies to like 2 vikings, it takes forever to build, it costs a stupid amount of money and on NO map would it be possible to sneak a mothership into the right position if you had 2 sentry towers decently placed. Seriously, think about it. It's a 1 off problem that from then on you say "oh, i must remember to build this at the 15 minute mark(!!!) just incase this one weird scenario takes place."
I'm not saying you can get all these options anymore than Jinro isn't saying all these problems occured in 1 game. Different maps, different situations, different solutions. Obviously it's really difficult to 'know' what to do.
TvP mech can open just fine. There is this push called a 1-1-1 which seems ok. do that but have the intent to retreat instead of all in. Banshees also do pretty good. Marine tank seems to do ok too.
Take a 3rd with a PF. They seem pretty resiliant with building armour.
Everything protoss has costs buckets and buckets of Gas. They are spending the same amount if not more getting their tech options up. Stalkers are 50 each. Immortals 100. VR 150. HT 150, colossus 200. 100 for a sentry. Protoss somehow make that work.
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On December 09 2011 14:35 Kharnage wrote:
TvP mech can open just fine. There is this push called a 1-1-1 which seems ok. do that but have the intent to retreat instead of all in. Banshees also do pretty good. Marine tank seems to do ok too.
Take a 3rd with a PF. They seem pretty resiliant with building armour.
Right...1-1-1 push, which involves 2-3 Tanks as your only Factory units.
Glowing review of Mech openings right there.
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In the end... the best arguments FOR mech is that on smaller, more curvy maps it is almost forced to be viable.... and that SC2's mineral harvesting system is mega dumb.... a Protoss on 7 base and a Terran on 3 base SHOULD have the Terran being ahead in mineral econ as dumb as that sounds... anything greater than 3 mining mineral bases is basically superfluous, no? T.T (other than purely mining gas...)
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THIS IS GOING TO END IT ALL!!! Send a link of 100 recent replays of you playing mech against Protoss. If you don't, then shut the hell up. You have no proof to support your stupid claim that mech isn't good against Protoss. I'm one who thinks mech isn't viable, but I won't make fact-less claims as I have little experience against mech.
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On December 09 2011 12:07 iaguz wrote:
Aye, but units in BW moved inefficiently too. Big bulky stupid fucking dragoons getting in each others way hampers the effectiveness of that army quite a bit. Not sure if the two cancel each other out necessarily though.
It's also worth noting that the 70 damage tank round did full damage to a zealots shields but only half afterwards. So they're still better then SC2 tanks dammit!
Better? Better as in doing more damage per shot, but that doesn't mean they are better overall.
Smart AI makes tanks incredibly more efficient and stops things like Zealot bombs from being very lethal, sure Broodwar tanks did do more damage but I'd wager a group of SC2 Tanks would do more effective damage against a Pro player than a group of Broodwar Tanks would. When there is no AI, it is much easier to abuse and punish
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On December 09 2011 17:09 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 12:07 iaguz wrote:
Aye, but units in BW moved inefficiently too. Big bulky stupid fucking dragoons getting in each others way hampers the effectiveness of that army quite a bit. Not sure if the two cancel each other out necessarily though.
It's also worth noting that the 70 damage tank round did full damage to a zealots shields but only half afterwards. So they're still better then SC2 tanks dammit! Better? Better as in doing more damage per shot, but that doesn't mean they are better overall. Smart AI makes tanks incredibly more efficient and stops things like Zealot bombs from being very lethal, sure Broodwar tanks did do more damage but I'd wager a group of SC2 Tanks would do more effective damage against a Pro player than a group of Broodwar Tanks would. When there is no AI, it is much easier to abuse and punish
Not to mention the whole death ball thing, units clump a LOT more in sc2 than they do in BW...
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EPT
