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I truly couldn't stand Artosis saying mech was viable in TvP. I had to make an account. In the beginning he even said that's just because it's sooooo much harder to play mech nobody tried? First off, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever, terran players have always been the players who have tried the most diverse unit compositions thanks to creative terran players like TLO. Air, mech, bio, biomech. All has been tested and used in high level play. Why isn't any of this used anymore? Because it's a gimmick, the only reason it worked is because it's a novelty.
Mech doesn't work for multiple reasons.
1. Warp prisms
2. Warpgates
3. Blink stalkers(leave your base? I kill all your production, can't do anything about it because you can't afford to leave tanks at home)
4. No aggressive potential allowing safe and easy 3rd base(Jinro vs Axslav shattered temple close positions, 3rd at minute 4 and he couldn't touch it because of good defense against blueflame hellion)
5. Immortals
6. Feedback
7. Chargelots
The immortal, feedback, and chargelots combined make it so that:
MECH ISN'T COST EFFICIENT ENOUGH IN A 200/200 SITUATION WITH A GOOD COMPOSITION FROM THE TOSS!!
Go in the unit tester and try it out yourself. I did, very thorough, every possible mech unit composition. Why? Because I got sick trying to play the perfect game against protoss and still losing because well, I missed to snipe 1 templar.
Artosis hasn't done this and yes in theory tank, banshee, hellion, ghosts, raven, whatever sounds really good. Apart from the fact that it's crazy hard to get and not die before getting to 200/200 it also just SUCKS. Mostly because of the high food costs of tanks, it's not possible to get more then 20 whilst also getting other stuff you need. And 20 tanks just aren't enough tanks to deal enough damage to chargelots and immortals before they can get in range and just crush tanks.Generally you are left over with some air but the protoss just needs to have speed for observers and 1 or 2 stargates ready, or just 20 warpgates warping in stalkers, whatever suits him.
Goody has stopped playing mech in TvP since the immortal buff.
Until a single warp prism makes it into your base and you cant fend it off without sending your entire army.
Until a protoss blinks into your main and snipes every addon.
Until a protoss tech switches to carriers and then back to ground.
Until you lose a 200/200 fight and by the time he's at your front door, remaxed, your first reinforcement wave of units has not even finished.
Until a mothership recalls immortals into your main and you have to engage immortals unsieged up a ramp. (btw, if you recall over an unpassable area like water the fucking units will show up on land, if you are close enough - had that happen when I had a perfect turret ring setup and god damn HerO recalled over the water and everything ended up inside my main)
Until you realize that tanks take 11 shots to kill an archon.
Until you realize that tanks get raped by colossi unless you are maxed out.
Until you realize that there is 0 ways to kill an expansion because of how good warp in is, without commiting your entire army.
And this.
Mech, isn't viable. There is no other way around it. People can bs what they want but it just isn't.
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On December 09 2011 17:09 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 12:07 iaguz wrote:
Aye, but units in BW moved inefficiently too. Big bulky stupid fucking dragoons getting in each others way hampers the effectiveness of that army quite a bit. Not sure if the two cancel each other out necessarily though.
It's also worth noting that the 70 damage tank round did full damage to a zealots shields but only half afterwards. So they're still better then SC2 tanks dammit! Better? Better as in doing more damage per shot, but that doesn't mean they are better overall. Smart AI makes tanks incredibly more efficient and stops things like Zealot bombs from being very lethal, sure Broodwar tanks did do more damage but I'd wager a group of SC2 Tanks would do more effective damage against a Pro player than a group of Broodwar Tanks would. When there is no AI, it is much easier to abuse and punish
any kind of drop on top of a sieged position is good in SC2 as well.. people drop marines and marauders on tanks in tvt all the time. Zealot drops would be just as good. Tanks aren't particularly smart in SC2 either.
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The argument was really interesting, I thought they all had good points but, like Geoff, I find it hard to believe pro players wouldnt be using mech if it was viable, or would've abandoned it because it was 'too hard'.
High-level players have consistently said mech is terrible in TvP, amongst them players like Jinro who'd clearly prefer to play mech. Players like MVP, with his Brood War experience, would surely have tried it, and with their training schedules in Korea, it surely would've been tested extensively.
Day9's point that theres no solid data on it is fair. Artosis just assumes they've tried it but not worked enough on it, Geoff assumes its been tested. They're both theoretical, I just find Geoffs easier to believe, with the rigorous Korean training schedules and how frequently this discussion comes up.
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I really enjoyed this episode. It felt more...real than usual. It was more about the game and less about the stuff around it, and the stuff around it was a bit more honest in a way. Kinda like SotG meets Lo3 meets ItG, if that makes sense.
Good show!
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It's really good to see how many other terrans have had the same issues as I have going mech vs. P. Zealots are too strong vs. mech, protoss remax is too strong vs. mech, and the 3 food tanks are too few vs. protoss.
Oh, and there's no way to control space (ie spider mines). This is actually the reason I'm most excited about that weird unit T's supposed to get in HotS that kills small things that come near it. It should (hopefully) kinda function like spider mines did. Maybe? I hope?
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ok JP.. if you read this thread. I have the ultimate idea for your 40k viewers challenge. This is what you need:
- Artosis on video from the Slayers house, showing HuK, PuMa, IdrA, demu, boxer and the others getting their drink on/practising. Boxer should do a live Q&A with twitter questions. Slayers Jessica should not be seen or heard from.
- Tyler getting drunk while playing Skyrim, and all his dogs should be in attendance on the bed behind him.
- InControl should do his usual thing, but the girls that are usually behind him trying to install a monitor, should now be in bikini.
- Day9 should stay on the show for more than 25 minutes this time. Shirtless.
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Awesome, awesome episode! Loved the mech talk for TvP and glad it didn't turn into LOL terran. Would have been nice to have Tyler on during that discussion.
Loved it!
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On December 09 2011 19:15 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 17:09 Dommk wrote:On December 09 2011 12:07 iaguz wrote:
Aye, but units in BW moved inefficiently too. Big bulky stupid fucking dragoons getting in each others way hampers the effectiveness of that army quite a bit. Not sure if the two cancel each other out necessarily though.
It's also worth noting that the 70 damage tank round did full damage to a zealots shields but only half afterwards. So they're still better then SC2 tanks dammit! Better? Better as in doing more damage per shot, but that doesn't mean they are better overall. Smart AI makes tanks incredibly more efficient and stops things like Zealot bombs from being very lethal, sure Broodwar tanks did do more damage but I'd wager a group of SC2 Tanks would do more effective damage against a Pro player than a group of Broodwar Tanks would. When there is no AI, it is much easier to abuse and punish any kind of drop on top of a sieged position is good in SC2 as well.. people drop marines and marauders on tanks in tvt all the time. Zealot drops would be just as good. Tanks aren't particularly smart in SC2 either.
Smart A.I just prevents overkilling, if you have 100 tanks in an area and a unit is dropped in the middle then only X amount of tanks will fire, X being the number of tank shots required to kill the unit. Where as in Broodwar any tank in range would fire.
The same is true when engaging a tank line, if you dropped a single Zergling or Zealot (suicide a overlord/warp-prism, etc) it would soak up every tanks first round of fire allowing your army to move in, unless of course your opponent was good enough to catch it and could control his tanks well enough to stop it from doing a lot of damage.
It may seem small at first but the better players get the bigger of an issue it becomes as it is much easier to abuse than to prevent abuse
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For 40k Viewers I would love to see a buzzed/drunk 2v2 Featuring:
Taste my 9: Sean and Nick
vs
In my Tosis: Dan and Geoff
Casted by Tyler and JP and any guests
All the players remain on the skype call. Shittalking encouraged
Please, I've been a good boy all year, I've bought all my MLG, NASL and GSL Tickets, I've watched all my IPL's, IEM's and Dreamhacks.
We deserve this showmatch.
You could also make the losers do something like the pink hair or something like that
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I think people are overestimating the effectiveness of warp-ins. You don't need to commit your entire army to destroy an expansion, but you do need to send a sizable chunk of it. Remember, in BW zerg had the nydus canal which is even better than the warp-in mechanic at reinforcing bases, and mech was still more than capable of taking out zerg expos. Another thing to keep in mind is that if the protoss wastes a ton of units in order to protect an expo then he actually ends up behind and would have been better off just sacking it. Yeah, GoOdy doesn't go mech versus protoss anymore, but I feel that has more to do with his low apm rather than the weaknesses of mech play.
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On December 09 2011 17:09 Dommk wrote:Smart AI makes tanks incredibly more efficient and stops things like Zealot bombs from being very lethal, sure Broodwar tanks did do more damage but I'd wager a group of SC2 Tanks would do more effective damage against a Pro player than a group of Broodwar Tanks would. When there is no AI, it is much easier to abuse and punish
I don't think pro players really agree with that overall. NaDa definitely doesn't:
Q:What's the difference between Brood War tanks and Starcraft 2 Tanks?
NaDa: SC2 tanks feel more frail and weaker.
I don't have specific examples for other players, but I think I remember MVP lamenting about SC2 tanks are worse.
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I just had a game PvT and they guy went mech. I'm only gold so not really indicative of what is capable but.. ya it was bad. His Thors had so much energy i just feedback them and they almost got 1 hit. Of course we are both bad but it was pretty 1 sided. Even though he dropped my supply down a lot, I could just resupply way faster.
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Yea, I really agree with geoff on this point. I thought koreans were suppose to be the innovators that come up with sick new styles and builds to play? I've seen a decent amount of marine tank play, usually with banshees, I haven't seen pure mech. You would think that by now SOMEONE would have come up with a decent way to play it. Goody may be "terrible" but he's known for a reason, he doesn't play in pro tournies by being completely awful
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On December 10 2011 06:26 Mattchew wrote:
For 40k Viewers I would love to see a buzzed/drunk 2v2 Featuring:
Taste my 9: Sean and Nick
vs
In my Tosis: Dan and Geoff
Casted by Tyler and JP and any guests
All the players remain on the skype call. Shittalking encouraged
Please, I've been a good boy all year, I've bought all my MLG, NASL and GSL Tickets, I've watched all my IPL's, IEM's and Dreamhacks.
We deserve this showmatch.
You could also make the losers do something like the pink hair or something like that
Please do this :D
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we need to see a showmatch incontrol vs Deezer, but instead of sc2 its wrestling
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On December 11 2011 05:31 Drazzyo wrote:
we need to see a showmatch incontrol vs Deezer, but instead of sc2 its wrestling
And MC takes the winner... but I think both would be too afraid
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On December 10 2011 06:26 Mattchew wrote:
For 40k Viewers I would love to see a buzzed/drunk 2v2 Featuring:
Taste my 9: Sean and Nick
vs
In my Tosis: Dan and Geoff
Casted by Tyler and JP and any guests
All the players remain on the skype call. Shittalking encouraged
Please, I've been a good boy all year, I've bought all my MLG, NASL and GSL Tickets, I've watched all my IPL's, IEM's and Dreamhacks.
We deserve this showmatch.
You could also make the losers do something like the pink hair or something like that
That would be amazing.
Or a FFA with all the hosts on Skype and JP observing.
Too bad none of this will happen because Day9's ego is too fragile to let anyone see him play SC2.
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I actually agree with incontrol saying that mech versus protoss would've already been worked out by now, at least to some extent if it was deemed to be viable. I find it hard to believe with such great players and the amount of thought put in the game with this much prize money out there that no one has had success with mech unless it just doesn't work.
I think with the increased use of warp prism (and speed) and with protoss's mobility with large amounts of warpgates and twilight council upgrades by the time terran can move out after turtling on 3 base that this won't work.
edit: and immortals and archons too obviously
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On December 09 2011 17:09 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 12:07 iaguz wrote:
Aye, but units in BW moved inefficiently too. Big bulky stupid fucking dragoons getting in each others way hampers the effectiveness of that army quite a bit. Not sure if the two cancel each other out necessarily though.
It's also worth noting that the 70 damage tank round did full damage to a zealots shields but only half afterwards. So they're still better then SC2 tanks dammit! Better? Better as in doing more damage per shot, but that doesn't mean they are better overall. Smart AI makes tanks incredibly more efficient and stops things like Zealot bombs from being very lethal, sure Broodwar tanks did do more damage but I'd wager a group of SC2 Tanks would do more effective damage against a Pro player than a group of Broodwar Tanks would. When there is no AI, it is much easier to abuse and punish
The thing is, dumb tank against dumb dragoon is better than smart tank against smart stalker. 
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On December 09 2011 18:30 Recognizable wrote:I truly couldn't stand Artosis saying mech was viable in TvP. I had to make an account. In the beginning he even said that's just because it's sooooo much harder to play mech nobody tried? First off, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever, terran players have always been the players who have tried the most diverse unit compositions thanks to creative terran players like TLO. Air, mech, bio, biomech. All has been tested and used in high level play. Why isn't any of this used anymore? Because it's a gimmick, the only reason it worked is because it's a novelty. Mech doesn't work for multiple reasons. 1. Warp prisms 2. Warpgates 3. Blink stalkers(leave your base? I kill all your production, can't do anything about it because you can't afford to leave tanks at home) 4. No aggressive potential allowing safe and easy 3rd base(Jinro vs Axslav shattered temple close positions, 3rd at minute 4 and he couldn't touch it because of good defense against blueflame hellion) 5. Immortals 6. Feedback 7. Chargelots The immortal, feedback, and chargelots combined make it so that: MECH ISN'T COST EFFICIENT ENOUGH IN A 200/200 SITUATION WITH A GOOD COMPOSITION FROM THE TOSS!! Go in the unit tester and try it out yourself. I did, very thorough, every possible mech unit composition. Why? Because I got sick trying to play the perfect game against protoss and still losing because well, I missed to snipe 1 templar. Artosis hasn't done this and yes in theory tank, banshee, hellion, ghosts, raven, whatever sounds really good. Apart from the fact that it's crazy hard to get and not die before getting to 200/200 it also just SUCKS. Mostly because of the high food costs of tanks, it's not possible to get more then 20 whilst also getting other stuff you need. And 20 tanks just aren't enough tanks to deal enough damage to chargelots and immortals before they can get in range and just crush tanks.Generally you are left over with some air but the protoss just needs to have speed for observers and 1 or 2 stargates ready, or just 20 warpgates warping in stalkers, whatever suits him. Goody has stopped playing mech in TvP since the immortal buff. Show nested quote +Until a single warp prism makes it into your base and you cant fend it off without sending your entire army.
Until a protoss blinks into your main and snipes every addon.
Until a protoss tech switches to carriers and then back to ground.
Until you lose a 200/200 fight and by the time he's at your front door, remaxed, your first reinforcement wave of units has not even finished.
Until a mothership recalls immortals into your main and you have to engage immortals unsieged up a ramp. (btw, if you recall over an unpassable area like water the fucking units will show up on land, if you are close enough - had that happen when I had a perfect turret ring setup and god damn HerO recalled over the water and everything ended up inside my main)
Until you realize that tanks take 11 shots to kill an archon.
Until you realize that tanks get raped by colossi unless you are maxed out.
Until you realize that there is 0 ways to kill an expansion because of how good warp in is, without commiting your entire army. And this. Mech, isn't viable. There is no other way around it. People can bs what they want but it just isn't.
Slayers Dragon was doing VERY well with it TvP with mass thors/hellions (please try and remember there is more than 1 mech unit a terran can utilise)
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EPT
